Opinion Are You Religious? (Discussion about religion because why not!)

[Bacon is fluffy]

1. But that's where you are wrong about christianity, and many other religions if not all actual religions, as a whole. You CAN'T just believe in whatever you want.


2. To begin with, religion is a an attempt to understand reality.

3.Hence the comparison to science, which also is one, as is philosohy and I imagine other things.

4.We can't just cherry pick whatever, and you can't put religion in a box that says "meaningless" or "silly" just because it is capable of changing.

5.Because you and I and everyone else are not omniscient.

6. If religion was immutable, and if there were not different interpretations then it WOULD be silly.

7. Because our religious beliefs have to be actual beliefs.

8.Have to be things we can actually understand as facts. If my experience diverges from yours, which it obvioulsy will, then naturally the things I know will differ from the things you know and therefore my filter for what can or not be believed in will be different. Which is pretty much the opposite of your accusations.

1. List of Christian denominations by number of members - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sure seems like it to me. Religion is all based on your beliefs. When you can just believe on whatever you want, it hurts your own cause. You want to say this,but look at how many sects there are just on this wikipedia page. Now if you're telling me all these sects are right, then something is wrong.

2. A very primitive attempt that isn't grounded in reality.

3. Depends on what you call science. Scientific have proven that antibiotics cured the bubonic plague while whipping yourself in attonement hasn't. Scientific research has gone on to finding out why some people are men(23rd pair of chromsomes XX) and women are Xy. As for philosphy, they are on the same level of religion. I appreciate philosphy's aims,but at the end of the day it's merely a web of thoughts that have been conveyed to explain something. Which is the same as religious belief.

4. I can and have put it in those boxes. Who are you to tell me I can't have that opinion of religious belief? My initial serious post in this thread is in defense of your fairy tales, but that doesn't change the fact that they are fairy tales.

5. Doesn't mean anything. Unless its in defense of your beleifs. Which I don't care for.

6. Ofcourse its silly that there are different interpretations. It's just the result of fragmented continents with their own populations who developed their own systems of beleif. Sun gods, ragnarok, titans, devils, angels, and monotheistic gods. All these people are free to believe what they want. There are certain benefits that come from the meaning that religion gives people. But the fact that you're telling me that it's not silly is silly in itself and only reinforces the futility of this conversation.

7. People can believe the united states is cultivating a rape culture,but until there's proof of that culture being cultivated, it's just hysteria. The facts don't care about your beliefs and neither do I.

8. Your experience means nothing to me other than it being a talking point for us to start a conversation. In all honesty, I would love for scientists to actually work toward proving we have a soul. You don't even have to address god, just prove we have an undying soul that is separate from our bodies. If scientists are trying to prove the existence of dark matter by trying to find traces of it by using the earth's crust as an actual filter to slow it down enough to theoretically catch a glimpse of it. Then surely technology one day will be able to definitely find out if we have a separate self. Until that day, it's just a belief. A belief is not fact. A belief is just something to give your life meaning and to explain things that don't make sense to you.

Me? I will never dabble in belief other than having a certain stance on topics that aren't clear cut. If that means my life loses meaning, then so be it. It is the path I've chosen and these are seeds that I sowed years ago. However on this topic where you're telling me I can't call your beleifs silly, is in itself silly. It's certainly rude to be blunt and not care about your feelings, but I can say and think whatever I want just like you.

 

[Idea]

The conversation sure maybe futile. What you are telling me is that unless there are physical results to something , even when that thing refers to non-physical aspects specifically it has no grounds. You're telling me you can label something as silly before even understanding it and still retain the validity of your being argument. And you are telling me that there being something we don't understand completely is enough to say the very attempt to understand it is silly.

If you asked me, that's what's silly.

 

[Idea]

Bacon is fluffy my apologies I went a bit too far there. I'll remove myself before I make this worse than it needs to be again. Thank you for your insight.

 

[Corrosion]

 

[Corrosion]

When someone debates religion on this site

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

Oh, boy. Better stay in my magical circle; these people are going crazy...

 

[Agent23]

It frankly doesnt matter.

Though i am christian, before that i am american, and before that i am human. All humans have the right to believe whatever they want regardless of if others disagree with them. The problem is nowadays people take disagreement as a personal assault on them. It also doesnt help that people twist the meanings of things. For example yes the bible says not to lay woth another man as you would a woman (or vice versa) but at the same time it says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. So most of the christians that are hating on others arent doing it right. I cannot give insite into other religions as i have never been involved in them. But i was raised christian, left the faith of my own accord, then came back when i became wise enough to understand the meaning of much of whats in there. Its not for everybody.

As for the heaven and hell thing its pretty simple. It isnt a sentence, sin is apparently not able to exist in the presence of god, yet all humans sin. Jesus was supposed to be the answer to this. Good deeds dont earn your way into heaven because just having the sin is fatal. (apparently the presence of god destroys sin) god offers a way to still be with him out of love. As for all the wrath and fire and brimstone, if god is our father does it not stand to reason that he has a right to punish us? It isnt like he just went "whelp i feel like destroying the world" it was after humanity had basically said f**k you and did whatever they felt, if you read the book of enoch there it says its because mankinds sin had corrupted the animals and plants as well (im at a loss here). I dont claim to know all, personally i belive in god because cosmic chance just means the bad in my life has happened for no reason, whereas faith means that its all a test for a final reward and that idea sits better with me. I may be wrong, but it is my right as a human to be wrong, as it is anothers right to say i am. However dont base your spiritual beliefs off of the horrors that have befallen you at the hands of man, if a person hurts you its not theor beliefs or their lack therof that did it. It was them, taking a message and twisting it because their minds were not recieving the message right.

Best wishes for the future, id say im sorry if i offended anyone...but thats not really sometging i particularly care about.

 

[ApfelSeine]

I'm actually rather surprised, as this thread has progressed a lot more constructively than might be expected with the tone of the original post. There are some instances of insults and degenerating other's beliefs though, and I'd like to ask people to please cut that out. You don't need to insult an individual or their beliefs in order to make a solid, convincing argument. If anything, being open to listening (even if their argument is far from convincing) keeps the discussion civil and everyone is more likely to get a positive experience from this. It's valuable to learn from the perspective of others, even if their view doesn't make sense to you personally.

I won't go into my own beliefs, since honestly that tends to color how people read what I write and I dislike that, but suffice is to say that it has evolved to become more complex over time and the more experience I gain in life. I love listening to everyone about their beliefs, since I always gain a new perspective, either on the world or on that specific individual. As a child, all my friends and aquaintences were atheists, Jewish, or Christian (Catholic, Protestant, and Unitarian). I leaned about Wiccans through a couple friends I met in high school. Moving to the city for college, that's expanded to meeting people who were Islamic, Hindu, and many agnostics or people from religions I'd never even heard of. There are a lot of religions out there, and a lot of smaller sects within those religions. That's just reflective of human nature.

Many religions encourage inclusivity, sometimes through broad acceptance of all and sometimes through encouraging conversion. They also inevitably exclude people, no matter how accepting they are. People create spaces where it's safe to believe in what they believe and be themselves. People who believe differently are a threat to that, and depending on the particular group of people, that can be through mild forms of exclusion or as drastic as violence directed at the perceived not believer. That's not even down to any particular religion. You can have very accepting local groups in one city and a violent group in another. It's all down to the social climate. Every human is capable of believing in anything or acting in any way, given the right circumstances. (Considering that, what I said applies to atheists as well.)

At the end of the day, social/religious groups fall back on the undeniable human principle of not liking to be around things they don't understand. There are three responses to that discomfort.
1. Change the unknown variable to be more like yourself
2. Push away the unknown by whatever means are available to you.
3. Learn about the unknown, so that it is no longer an unknown, but rather a well defined part of your world

None of these are the "correct" response. People learn different responses because it works for them. All three of these responses are a part of every religious and non religious group. In the end, we're not that different from each other. We just trick ourselves into thinking that because our beliefs are different, that somehow means that everyone outside our little "in group" is beyond comprehension. They're "crazy" or "silly" or even just plain "wrong". But to be that certain that you're right, you need to believe that you know everything, and the fact is that none of us do. It's not a matter of being more or less informed. It's a matter of finding a conclusion that makes sense to us, and which lets us belong to a group that gives us the benefit of a support structure and a sense of purpose. Religion has a purpose, as does non religion. We all want the world to make sense to us, even though we can't actively research every aspect of the world by ourselves. For that, we need each other.

 

[TheRockInception]

I love your post but I take issue with this part, because some pagan religions DID already have this sort of thing.
For example, the Ancient Egyptians had Ma'at (or Mayet, depending on what books you're reading). Their ancient philsophers were preaching similar things as Christanity does -- only much sooner than when Christanity came around.
(Ptahhotep comes to mind, specifically, but there were other tidbits you can find in a BOTD somewhere -- usually the deceased saying "I didn't do this, therefore, it's good in the eyes of the gods and it upheld Ma'at".) There's some instances where it specifies kindness and generosity towards the community.

Zoroastrianism, something I'm not quite as familar with as with Ancient Egypt, heavily influenced Judaism and it has some similar beliefs.

Again, love your post, but I don't feel that the part I bolded is accurate and is doing these other religions justice.

Hey, cool beans fam. I don't have much of an understanding of the ancient world, besides a basic high school understanding and what i know through the Old Testament, which I pretty much regard as the prelude to the Gospels. Thanks for pointing that out friend.
I might want to note also that Christianity before Christ is Judaism, so I'll edit my post when I have time to reflect that. But no, you're fine friend.

 

[Tarmagon]

An evil deed done in the name of good is still evil, and a good deed done in the name of evil is still good. Let us be less about the naming of names, and more about the doing of deeds. (Mercedes Lackey)

So, your relationship with the deity of your choice is just that, your choice. If you choose not to have any beliefs, that is your right as well. You may explain, if asked, why you disagree with someone's beliefs or lack thereof, in a logical method. If they choose to disagree with you, do them the courtesy of listening to their reasons with an open mind. If you cannot come to an understanding, walk away without rancor, each comfortable in their own beliefs.

Wouldn't it be nice if it were really that easy?

 

[Axel The Englishman]

NOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[CastoffCaptain]

T TheRockInception
Hey. Psssst.
Unless you've made a good, thorough study of ancient pagan religions and their social context, please don't fall into the ages-old trap of thinking Christianity was the only path preaching for people to be good and kind to others. That's a myth that doesn't always stand up to scrutiny.

Thanks.

 

[Idea]

T TheRockInception
Hey. Psssst.
Unless you've made a good, thorough study of ancient pagan religions and their social context, please don't fall into the ages-old trap of thinking Christianity was the only path preaching for people to be good and kind to others. That's a myth that doesn't always stand up to scrutiny.

Thanks.

Indeed, that is correct. A famous example are hospitability laws.

However the real inovation of christianity, or rather, one of the major ones was "love thy enemy". That was unprecendented. Love and forgiveness as a form of justice and as something you should take an innitiative on. Conversion through example and diligence, rather than by force. And the idea of a God that reduces itself to humanity's equal for their sins.

This is what the christians brought that other religions wouldn't. And as I mentioned before in this thread, these may (or maybe not) seem like perfectly natural and obvious things to you. But at their time, they were radical ideas, completely revolutionary. Sure, all of them had glimpses in some sense or another in other religions, but they were never as manifest and fulcral as with chrisitanity.

 

[TheRockInception]

T TheRockInception
Hey. Psssst.
Unless you've made a good, thorough study of ancient pagan religions and their social context, please don't fall into the ages-old trap of thinking Christianity was the only path preaching for people to be good and kind to others. That's a myth that doesn't always stand up to scrutiny.

Thanks.

As I stated before, I realize that and will update my post when i can to clarify that.
You're welcome.

 

[CastoffCaptain]

T TheRockInception
Hey. Psssst.
Unless you've made a good, thorough study of ancient pagan religions and their social context, please don't fall into the ages-old trap of thinking Christianity was the only path preaching for people to be good and kind to others. That's a myth perpet

As I stated before, I realize that and will update my post when i can to clarify that.
You're welcome.

 

[ValkyrieRose]

My parents raised me to be christian, as almost anybody down south in america probably was, where going to sunday church is less a religion and more of a hyper tradition. About.... mid teenage years i had a bit of a crisis in faith., one that led me into denouncing it. I just couldn't accept some of the tenets as fact anymore like they expected, and this was after years of going to the adults bible studies and reading everything in the bible cover to cover ( christian private school and i grew up quickly dont ask) About this time i started to look up history, actual history of how religion spread. oh boy, what i read boiled my blood. As was mentioned above, the way they treated other religions just for not believing in them.

""No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. ... The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword." -- Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4"

The way i read about the church manipulating information to spread their agenda (burning of non christian of books, replacing yuletide with their own holy, Christmas when Jesus; real birthday was sometime around easter (i remember reading this somewhere but i couldn't find it immediately for instant backup, if im wrong i dont mind saying so)

Well, i've had a LOT of time to think on the matters of religion past that. I'm now Wicca for its free form methods of worship and it more follows my own beliefs. That said... I believe that religion is just made up of concepts. People summarizing their concepts of good as God, and what they perceive to be evil as Satan... and any version in history really. Perception is what is at the center of it all... thats my conclusion of course ^^

i dont mean to cause issuess to anyone, just speaking of my own experiences with religions and wanted to state my reasons for believing so. thank you ^^

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

My parents raised me to be christian, as almost anybody down south in america probably was, where going to sunday church is less a religion and more of a hyper tradition. About.... mid teenage years i had a bit of a crisis in faith., one that led me into denouncing it. I just couldn't accept some of the tenets as fact anymore like they expected, and this was after years of going to the adults bible studies and reading everything in the bible cover to cover ( christian private school and i grew up quickly dont ask) About this time i started to look up history, actual history of how religion spread. oh boy, what i read boiled my blood. As was mentioned above, the way they treated other religions just for not believing in them.

""No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. ... The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword." -- Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4"

The way i read about the church manipulating information to spread their agenda (burning of non christian of books, replacing yuletide with their own holy, Christmas when Jesus; real birthday was sometime around easter (i remember reading this somewhere but i couldn't find it immediately for instant backup, if im wrong i dont mind saying so)

Well, i've had a LOT of time to think on the matters of religion past that. I'm now Wicca for its free form methods of worship and it more follows my own beliefs. That said... I believe that religion is just made up of concepts. People summarizing their concepts of good as God, and what they perceive to be evil as Satan... and any version in history really. Perception is what is at the center of it all... thats my conclusion of course ^^

i dont mean to cause issuess to anyone, just speaking of my own experiences with religions and wanted to state my reasons for believing so. thank you ^^

The thing they said about people with different sources of spiritual ability ticked me off as well. i basically read that as someone who talked to spirits, I could have been killed and my murder justified according to my own Bible's standards.

Not to mention what would have happened in real life if my parents knew of my visions.

 

[Idea]

The way i read about the church manipulating information to spread their agenda (burning of non christian of books, replacing yuletide with their own holy, Christmas when Jesus; real birthday was sometime around easter (i remember reading this somewhere but i couldn't find it immediately for instant backup, if im wrong i dont mind saying so)

I do want to point out a couple of things about this...

1. Information manipulation and chaging holidays is a dishonest tactic, but let's not forget that bloodshed was often the alternative. We are not talking of peaceful tribes here but of peoples who were often propelled to war, either by their own lifestyle or due to issues in Asia that drove them out.

2.yes, the church as a whole made a lot of mistakes. Mistakes which in 99% of the cases were driven less by religious fervor and more by political and personal interests. The dreaded crusades are a clear example. Yes, they were started by the Pope, who ordered them to drive out a particularly dangerous and hostile sect of muslims that had intensified their attacks on pilgrims. So the crusades had very good reason and there were even permissions to muslism to come to the holy land. The problem? The armies were people, people who for various reasons, greed and pride being major ones, overstepped their bounds.
This is a very long way of saying that even the church is more than the religion it revers, it is a group of people ultimately. And that carries with it making mistakes because of being people, flawed, not necessarily because of their religious beliefs. What people did or did not do in the past is no indicator of whether their beliefs were true or not.

 

[ApfelSeine]

Indeed, that is correct. A famous example are hospitability laws.

However the real inovation of christianity, or rather, one of the major ones was "love thy enemy". That was unprecendented. Love and forgiveness as a form of justice and as something you should take an innitiative on. Conversion through example and diligence, rather than by force. And the idea of a God that reduces itself to humanity's equal for their sins.

This is what the christians brought that other religions wouldn't. And as I mentioned before in this thread, these may (or maybe not) seem like perfectly natural and obvious things to you. But at their time, they were radical ideas, completely revolutionary. Sure, all of them had glimpses in some sense or another in other religions, but they were never as manifest and fulcral as with chrisitanity.

I disagree with this assertion. The idea of showing compassion to an enemy (also called universal love in some religions) has existed long before Christianity. Peacemakers have always existed among humans, but more than that, there are older religions which include kindness and peace as a core part of their beliefs. To my knowledge, many Asian religions and philosophies include this, and predate Christianity by hundreds of years. Buddhism and Hinduism for instance, as well as Taoism and Confucianism. Many people are not aware of this, however, since they learn a much more eurocentric history. Christianity didn't make any breakthroughs in moral philosophies. It did play a pivotal role throughout European history though, and so you are right about it's influence and importance (just not about it's novelty).

There are many, many religions in the world. To understand them, a lot of time needs to be devoted to studying them, and I have not done that. From what I have learned though, peaceful conversions has never been exclusive to Christianity. In fact, many conversions were achieved through force in the name of Christianity (the atrocities that native Americans were subjected to, for instance). Sometimes you have religions that are by nature peaceful throughout their existence, but more commonly one tends to see a mixed bag - where a lot is done peacefully through missions, or through people selling enlightenment, but a lot is also done through conquest and force.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

My parents essentially tried to force "Christianity" on all their kids so that they could brag to their church buddies. One of the girls was actually beaten on a regular basis in an attempt to force a conversion. It does not work and does not bring true faith.

 

[Idea]

I disagree with this assertion. The idea of showing compassion to an enemy (also called universal love in some religions) has existed long before Christianity. Peacemakers have always existed among humans, but more than that, there are older religions which include kindness and peace as a core part of their beliefs. To my knowledge, many Asian religions and philosophies include this, and predate Christianity by thousands of years. Buddhism and Hinduism for instance, as well as Taoism and Confucianism. Many people are not aware of this, however, since they learn a much more eurocentric history. Christianity didn't make any breakthroughs in moral philosophies. It did play a pivotal role throughout European history though, and so you are right about it's influence and importance (just not about it's novelty).

There are many, many religions in the world. To understand them, a lot of time needs to be devoted to studying them, and I have not done that. From what I have learned though, peaceful conversions has never been exclusive to Christianity. In fact, many conversions were achieved through force in the name of Christianity (the atrocities that native Americans were subjected to, for instance). Sometimes you have religions that are by nature peaceful throughout their existence, but more commonly one tends to see a mixed bag - where a lot is done peacefully through missions, or through people selling enlightenment, but a lot is also done through conquest and force.

Indeed, such religions existed, but as you yourself claimed they were peacemakers. The central thing of christianity that was not in those is that it was focused on the neighbour's well being rather than your relation to your enviroment and it's relation to you. yes, they promoted peace and clam and harmony. But this was based on respect towards a certain balance or towards ancestors and sometimes even towards yourself. It was about inner piece or the let go of your desires in other to not suffer from them. Christianity did promise reward too but it was primarily a reward about being proactive in caring for the other rather than the more routine way of going about it of eastern relgions, that often called for certain actions be done in general rather than exemplifying and asking you to adapt to the situations.

This could be, although I for obvious reasons can't claim certainty about it, the cause for the much more expansionits drive of the christian relgion comparatively. After all, christinaity always felt like part of it's duty was to teach others how to seek salvation rather than showing it to others and letting them come to it themselves. And I am not denying atrocities were made in the name of religion but again, i beg that we do not confuse the actions in the anme of something with the principles of that something.

 

[Chimney Swift]

-Awkwardly butts in-

My mother's family is Irish Catholic, but I'm a wishy-washy indecisive agnostic myself. Anyway, whoever I'm praying to is pretty responsive.

 

[TheRockInception]

I do want to point out a couple of things about this...

1. Information manipulation and chaging holidays is a dishonest tactic, but let's not forget that bloodshed was often the alternative. We are not talking of peaceful tribes here but of peoples who were often propelled to war, either by their own lifestyle or due to issues in Asia that drove them out.

2.yes, the church as a whole made a lot of mistakes. Mistakes which in 99% of the cases were driven less by religious fervor and more by political and personal interests. The dreaded crusades are a clear example. Yes, they were started by the Pope, who ordered them to drive out a particularly dangerous and hostile sect of muslims that had intensified their attacks on pilgrims. So the crusades had very good reason and there were even permissions to muslism to come to the holy land. The problem? The armies were people, people who for various reasons, greed and pride being major ones, overstepped their bounds.
This is a very long way of saying that even the church is more than the religion it revers, it is a group of people ultimately. And that carries with it making mistakes because of being people, flawed, not necessarily because of their religious beliefs. What people did or did not do in the past is no indicator of whether their beliefs were true or not.

This.
Blame the individual(s), and not the ideology. The individuals did the act, not an inanimate object. So many people have turned away from the faith due to incompetent pastors/priests who did not teach the saving grace of God and Jesus Christ.

 

[TheRockInception]

I've fixed my post to be more accurate as pointed out by some others in this thread. Thanks for pointing it out, those who did, and if I could have worded it better, do tell me. I am only human

 

[ApfelSeine]

Indeed, such religions existed, but as you yourself claimed they were peacemakers. The central thing of christianity that was not in those is that it was focused on the neighbour's well being rather than your relation to your enviroment and it's relation to you. yes, they promoted peace and clam and harmony. But this was based on respect towards a certain balance or towards ancestors and sometimes even towards yourself. It was about inner piece or the let go of your desires in other to not suffer from them. Christianity did promise reward too but it was primarily a reward about being proactive in caring for the other rather than the more routine way of going about it of eastern relgions, that often called for certain actions be done in general rather than exemplifying and asking you to adapt to the situations.

This could be, although I for obvious reasons can't claim certainty about it, the cause for the much more expansionits drive of the christian relgion comparatively. After all, christinaity always felt like part of it's duty was to teach others how to seek salvation rather than showing it to others and letting them come to it themselves. And I am not denying atrocities were made in the name of religion but again, i beg that we do not confuse the actions in the anme of something with the principles of that something.

I think I see the distinction you are making, but I'm not entirely sure. You seem to be implying that it is out of altruistic motivations that people show kindness to their neighbors in Christianity, rather than a desire to feel personal satisfaction or peace. Part of my confusion lies in the idea that Christian teachings are not motivated by self interest. To my understanding, Christianity teaches to act good and do good, and as a reward for living a good life you go to heaven. Rather than doing good for it's own sake or the sake of humanity, it seems to me that by it's very nature Christianity promises reward for altruism. As such, I do not see what the difference is. "Promote peace, you will achieve salvation" is the same to me as "promote peace, you will feel satisfied". There is a promise of reward for doing good. Outside of any religious context, people show kindness to each other because it feels good to promote a peaceful society. A sense exists that there will be some pay off in the end, even for people who are not religious.

You mention that kindness is shown more proactively in Christianity, and as a matter of course/passively in others. This is kind of true in regard to how conversions are achieved, since the Eastern religions I know about tend to spread their teachings to those who come to them. In regard to acts of kindness however, I know that Hinduism and Buddhism both encourage generosity and charity.

To the final point, violent conversions are as much a part of Christianity as peaceful ones. The same applies to all religions which have a history of violence. I do agree though, that examples of violence do not define a religion as being violent. Religion is a tool, or a guide, which people use to suit their needs. Some people benefit from violence, and so violent conversions exist. How people choose to interpret scripture reflects on them as individuals. Religion has a symbiotic relationship with each religious person, where it sets people on an initial track, but bends to their will when they decide to use it for something.