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Fandom Shirou Emiya's Smithing Shop - OOC
- Thread starter Birdsie
- Start date
Hanarei
Rawr-ness
There's a lot of different points of view being expressed here, and it's difficult to say that one side is right and one isn't. But I think I can solve the dilemma with one question to one person.
Hanarei Are you more interested in in roleplaying, or winning?
If the former, the presence of someone horrifically overpowered should mean little so long as an interesting story is told along the way. If the player of said "overpowered" character does wind up being a powergamer and not really enriching the experience; lesson learned, and you can blacklist them from then on.
If the latter - or perhaps both - then perhaps Fate RPs aren't your cup of tea.
Notice how I of all people said absolutely 0 about the servants with Ex stats? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Well nothing about anger or dislike for it. Other people brought it up, think I might of made a joke or something (I forget) but I didn't have an outrage towards it. If you want to make that point you would have to have me voicing up about that stuff to really make it valid. Let me try and make an example that might be understood on a very simplistic level.
You have a child. You tell the child he can pick between either a Xbox One, a Playstation 4 (pretty sure thats the latest one), a Nintendo Switch, or a Ball on a stick. Now that kid looks on you and says "I want the Xbox One Pro, the Playstation 4 Pro, and the Nintendo Switch with all its accessories. I don't need the Ball on a stick". That is literally my point. If it was just wanting one I'd shrug it off, maybe 2 with one being like the non pro version... okay... its going a bit far but okay... having it all though except the obviously much cheaper and likely less fun option is just removing any sort of diversity and just taking everything good. They can't go "Well I picked this so I can't get such and such game" since they have all the systems they have everything they could ever need without any of the 'weaknesses'.
Not sure why you would ever state such a thing, I'm pretty sure every Fate RP i've been in, all the servants I've made have been much more on the tame side, and a lot of my masters actually useless so the whole 'to win' angle is pretty idiotic to accuse me of as being my point.
Sorry for jumping back in this thread (I was attempting to void a post here) but i really hate being misrepresented with a point that most people who seen me in other Fate games should clearly know it isn't true. I'm going to ignore any other messages here at least to not bog this game down even if it is more misrepresenting me. Throw a PM if you really want to argue with me but I won't do it here. I already deleted Lancer from the roster and I have 0 interest in rejoining no matter how much I like my character concept.
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cojemo
2000 IQ Killjoy Detective
And I've done the exact same thing with my Masters. I enjoy making them useless, I enjoy making them struggle with themselves, I enjoy them having conflict with their Servants. I don't like making it easy on my characters, and the same goes for Jeremy. He's extremely strong, but has weakness in many other areas that pull away from his strength, which is the whole point of his character. And hey, what do you know I hate being misrepresented as well! So yeah.
HTCOR
RP Junkie
Let's take a look at Assassin and Caster's stats compared to Jeremy's!
Assassin
Parameters:
Strength: D
Endurance: D
Mana: B
Agility: C+
Luck: B
Noble Phantasm: B
Caster
Parameters:
Strength: B
Endurance: E
Agility: D
Mana: A
Luck: C
Noble Phantasm: EX
Okay. So! As far as I can tell...
Jeremy beats Caster and Assassin in Endurance. Meaning that a Servant is a lot more fragile than Jeremy is. Assassin is D Rank, Caster is E Rank. Jeremy is C Rank.
Jeremy beats Assassin in Strength, but Caster beats Jeremy. Jeremy, once again, is C Rank. Assassin is B Rank. Caster is B.
Jeremy beats Caster in Agility, but not Assassin. Assassin is almost double the speed of Jeremy, Caster is 10 points slower than Jeremy.
Both Servants beat him in Mana.
Assassin's Noble Phantasms are B Rank.
Caster's Noble Phantasms are at EX.
Assassin's Primary Attack is 'D' Rank with one of his Noble Phantasms.
Jeremy's endurance is C rank.
Assassin attacks Jeremy.
Jeremy shrugs off the majority of the damage.
I'm seeing an issue.
Girouette
Lizard knight Overlord
Sorry to interrupt...This, but what's the preferred historical pinpoint accuracy for servants? I assume since this is fate,some creative freedom is allowed as far as appearances and such go, but it's good to ask.
Not that I intend to genderbend my character or anything...
Not that I intend to genderbend my character or anything...
Godhowsae
Rank F Luck
Just try to tie in the skills and NP's with the legend in some way and it should be fine.
Birdsie
The God-Emperor of Mankind
Stats in the Nasuverse have been widely inconsistent in many ways. To actually rely on what you find is very... amateurish.Okay, gonna start out with giving the Servant Stats for the RP, then the stats for Fate itself, as to give a reference.
Servants:
E - Above average for a human.
D - Peak-human.
C - Slightly paranormal.
B - Blatantly supernatural.
A - Godlike.
EX - Immeasurable.
So question. C Rank here, is EX Rank for Masters. I think we're all aware of that and all.
Compared to the regular scale of Fate...
E - 10x Better than Base Human
D - 20x Better than Base Human
C - 30x Better than Base Human
B - 40x Better than Base Human
A - 50x Better than Base Human
EX - Immeasurable by normal standards.
+ means 'Double' the regular standard. So A+ = 100x, A++ = 150x
So let's say...someone has EX in Endurance for a Servant. Alright? Pretty much it means they're 'Achilles' with his legendary Endurance. EX, asXel stated, is simply not a rank someone has unless there's a stupidly outstanding reason, and even then, there better be some damn penalty to it. Like Achilles would probably burn a lot of Mana just by existing with such a potent Endurance Statistic. Sure, maybe you have a Noble Phantasm- Avalon- which grants you EX Endurance for a short period of time.
Which is fine, I guess? Achilles has such a famous legend that everyone would start aiming for his hill once they saw Greek Armor and the weaponry bouncing off them. Literally, 'Achilles Heel' is a famous way of saying 'Weak spot'.
Whereas someone with A+ Rank Strength, (Heracles, I see you), its been quoted 'They swung so hard that the very wind displaced by the blade could murder a regular person. Aka, Shirou almost gets murdered by the wind displaced by Heracle's blade. And he has A+ strength.
The main issue I have with the Stats in this however, is the jump from 'B' to 'A'.
B Rank means you're blanantly supernatural. Sure, you can run 50 mph. That's scary.
A Rank means you're literally going Super sanic ball speeds, with MLG ads playing in the background. (400 MLGs per hour, check? Or let's just go with 'You move fast enough to go flying 100 feet into the air on a ramp. Which is pretty darn fast.)
Gods ain't slow when they really get moving...
So basically Caster with their A Rank Mana in this, is pretty much Medea in Fate Stay Night on that basis- but they don't have the 'strength' of a 'I will crush you' person. They can't just punt someone out of their way in the scenario that someone gets absurdly close.
You can call me insane for this opinion, really. But it feels like the Servants are a mixture of debuffed and powered up in this. For example, A Rank is a lot higher than what a regular Fate A rank is. A+ Rank is Strongest Man in the World. Man. Not God. Atlas would probably be EX Strength, but in this, he's moreso A Rank. Why do I say that...?
He's Godlike strength. But he holds up the skies, so that's pretty darn impressive. And that's in his true form, giving all of his effort to not dying. Sky's pretty darn heavy, you know?
So yeah. Its not just 'Blatantly Supernatural' for a Servant at B rank. That's at E and D rank. E is already 10x the normal human, with D being 20x the normal human. There's a reason why you don't 'Fight a servant directly' because they're pretty much Gods in Flesh compared to pretty much every non-Magus out there. However, Magic is the tipping point for a Master. If you catch a Servant with something as Potent as Fragarach against Excalibur, Arturia would die. Painfully. And that's a mortal Noble Phantasm. Which is astounding on its own.
So let's say we had Caladbolg II hit someone. That's an A Rank Attack. Which pierces Caster's defenses like they're nothing. (Mind you, its normally A+ rank, but Archer using Projection downgrades all Projected items by '1 Rank')
So generally, a Master doesn't stand a chance against a Servant with just pure natural abilities- you'd be a horrid abomination of nature in that case. And that's among the Magus Community, and you'd be a Sealing Designation faster than someone could go 'Oh snap!'
Also, did you know that Archer, to fight against Lancer, he had to use his signature twin blades- which actually increase his attributes when held by one rank in Strength and Agility, and confers light magic resistance. (What do ya know?) Now, we know that D Rank Strength- what Archer has- is enough to fight Shirou when he's using the twin Noble Phantasms, which boost his strength to at least E Rank. Stack on the reinforcement he's using, and that's a nice solid D rank, right?
And then when Archer moves with his C Rank agility, he borderline teleports. And he's fighting Shirou fairly as he mentally comments to himself.
Edit: Correction - Archer's twin swords increase his physical resistance and magic resistance, not his stats. So the last part is a tad null. But still. Archer's holding back on Shirou when it comes to the speed game. And that's with C rank Agility he moves fast enough to slam into a target with enough force to knock them back, and D Rank Strength.
A mere kick with D Rank strength is enough to send the kid flying. Generally, kicks don't do that- they knock someone over if you hit them with a sideways kick. In EMIYA's case, it sends Shirou flying off his feet, around twenty feet or so. Whaddayaknow?
Darkholme
Performance Artist
Don't get me wrong. I'm also not a big fan of him literally maxing out literally every single one of his important stats. I can see where he was going with it, but it would be so easy to accomplish what I assume he wanted to do without making it so blatantly good in every aspect. Someone who can tangle with a low-ranking servant in a fight. Fine, give him really high physical attributes. Maybe nerf his mana to compensate, or give him a bit lower endurance, or both. Or go the other route, have that stupidly high mana stat, and just utilize reinforcement magic to boost your physical stats to compete. I agree that EX in every rank is uncreative and lazy, but I'm not beyond giving it a chance. I don't believe that the intent is malicious. I see someone who does want to do something relatively unique, even if that "unique" translates a bit into "special snowflake".
HTCOR
RP Junkie
Messed up on the statistical side of that. Completely. Will admit that.
Also, thank you for the compliment of sorts.
Godhowsae
Rank F Luck
"Compliment."
cojemo
2000 IQ Killjoy Detective
I can say for a fact genderbending and some creative freedom is allowed from what I know, so yeah go for it!
Yeah, that issue is he can fight them pretty evenly. What's the issue here? This isn't normal in the Nasuverse, but not unheard of. Hell there are plenty of people that are actually stronger than Servants or can fight them. Heck, it's been said Kirei could have fought Assassin or Caster in Zero.
Well what I was going for was a character who has it all but wants more because of his own ego always limiting himself from being what he could be. But yeah, I get what you're saying. I've made so many normal characters in the past that I wanted to do something different. I appreciate you for understanding.
As a side note, I tried to reconcile and wish Hanarei luck in a PM and it turns out they blocked me...welp.
Birdsie
The God-Emperor of Mankind
cojemo
Captain Gabriel
SomeStupidWords
Dalamus Ulom
Kalin Scarlet
Godhowsae
@Kitty-Sama
Hanarei
Mion
Xel
HTCOR
Darkholme
I will do some restructuring.
It began with Caster being very powerful. Saber and Berserker who are Caster's friends caught wind of this and decided to make their characters equally powerful. Right now, I will call bullshit.
Hanarei is right, because EX-stats aren't meant to be thrown around like toys, but I disagree with her general mindset of OP being bad. Thus, I'll conclude it with the following demands:
cojemo
: Lower Jeremy's Endurance to D, or lower. You've already mentioned he's weak because of the changes. All other physical stats cannot go over A+++.
Darkholme
: Lower Berserker's max Endurance to A+++.
Godhowsae
: You're fine, since the requirements for Saber's maximum power are very specific and temporary at best.
Xel
: Lower Caster's magical abilities slightly. I've already given you arguments as for why their power isn't fitting.
Birdsie
The God-Emperor of Mankind
With that, I hope most of the players will be satisfied.
I will do some restructuring.
It began with Caster being very powerful. Saber and Berserker who are Caster's friends caught wind of this and decided to make their characters equally powerful. Right now, I will call bullshit.
Hanarei is right, because EX-stats aren't meant to be thrown around like toys, but I disagree with her general mindset of OP being bad. Thus, I'll conclude it with the following demands:
HTCOR
RP Junkie
*Coughs quietly*
The term is something used by professionals who do something for a job, to reference people who do something for fun.
Edit: And that's what the term literally means. Someone who does something for fun.
Edit 2: Or at least, that would be the initial, and primary meaning of the word.
Xel
The Paladin
I will do some restructuring.
It began with Caster being very powerful. Saber and Berserker who are Caster's friends caught wind of this and decided to make their characters equally powerful. Right now, I will call bullshit.
Hanarei is right, because EX-stats aren't meant to be thrown around like toys, but I disagree with her general mindset of OP being bad. Thus, I'll conclude it with the following demands:
Saber and Berserker aren't my friends lol. I've just RP'd with them in some other Fate RPs like I have with several other people here.
cojemo
2000 IQ Killjoy Detective
Hmmm...How about his Endurance being C/B-, since physically he's not necessarily weak, and in fact a part of the demons corruption has turned his arm into a solid, near indestructible metal, but health wise he definitely gets weaker. It totally makes sense though. The rest will become A+++, as I was only aiming to make him about C rank compared to Servants anyways.
I will do some restructuring.
It began with Caster being very powerful. Saber and Berserker who are Caster's friends caught wind of this and decided to make their characters equally powerful. Right now, I will call bullshit.
Hanarei is right, because EX-stats aren't meant to be thrown around like toys, but I disagree with her general mindset of OP being bad. Thus, I'll conclude it with the following demands:
Birdsie
The God-Emperor of Mankind
cojemo
2000 IQ Killjoy Detective
YAY! See? This is what calm, simple negotiation and compromise can get someone!
Godhowsae
Rank F Luck
I'll make a friend one day.
Birdsie
The God-Emperor of Mankind
I can be your friend!
Mion
Always Tired
HTCOR
RP Junkie
HTCOR
RP Junkie
Anyways....anyone mind if I claim the IC's first player post?
cojemo
2000 IQ Killjoy Detective
Wouldn't you need to wait to be summoned first?
