Slav
Senior Member
My country is both very racist and theocratic. The ruling party is basically a hate group.
What country are you from?
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My country is both very racist and theocratic. The ruling party is basically a hate group.
I always thought it’s such a weird way to name it. “Pro life” or “pro choice”. Aren’t we all pro life? We all wants these children to have good homes and to be raised with love, but sometimes it’s just not possible. Sometimes the child being born brings the mother at risk of dying. Sometimes the child is a constant reminder of the traumatic rape the mother went through. Sometimes the mother can barely feed herself, let alone a newborn. And sometimes the mother just isn’t ready to be a mother yet, and when forced to become one will start to resent the child and raise him wit contempt and hatred instead of love. No matter the reason, a woman should have the choice to end her pregnancy. Despite what a lot of “pro life” people think, it’s not an easy decision. Ofcourse there are bad apples among them who are proud of it, but there are bad apples among every group. That doesn’t mean all women should suffer for it. A pregnancy isn’t something that you just go through while continuing your normal life. It’s difficult and painful and your body changes and you’re hormonal and it’s like that for 9 months.
We shouldn’t demonize abortions. It’s already difficult to choose to get an abortion, these women don’t need contempt from those around her. We need to teach girls (and boys!!!!) proper sex ed and health care so they can prevent unwanted pregnancies. We need to offer help to women with children who can barely get by. We need to teach boys to keep their hands to themselves and give girls tools to defend themselves from rapists. We need to eliminate the need for abortions. But we also need to teach girls that they’re not monsters or evil or heartless for getting an abortion. I live in a country where abortion has been legal for a long time. It’s not that big of a deal here. Does that mean women stop being careful and just get in line when they get pregnant again? No. But the choice is there if they need it, and they’re not painted as heartless monsters. That’s how it needs to be everywhere.
I’m from the Netherlands.Exactly! If you don't mind my asking whereabouts are you from?
I’m from the Netherlands.
That's interesting never heard the Netherlands come up in any debates but I suppose it's because you have a reasonable outlook on it
I am honestly at the point where I don't even bother talking with people IRL about abortions. If they bring it up I just redirect to talking about sex ed or childcare practices. Those are things a lot of people think are stupid in this country and no one gets in their feelings about them either. It's like no universally our education system is garbage and we need to make taking care of kids easier.
What country are you from?
I myself am Pro-Choice, although, like @NottTheBravest said, I don't agree with the names we've given these two sides. Being "Pro-Choice" doesn't necessarily mean that we're for murdering children and are against "life" XD
That said, I don't honestly see an abortion as murder; I mean, you could argue that every time a woman chooses not to have a baby with a man she's stealing life from an unborn and helpless child. In reality, this baby hasn't even experienced it's first thought yet, it's not really a human. We may be taking away it's future, but it's one that hasn't yet come in to focus, and also one that may be filled with abuse and unhappiness. We all want children to find safe, loving homes, but even if a mother is against abortion and chooses adoption, that kid might not discover a home, and if they do, what if it's not a good one? What if they grow up feeling unloved, undeserving?
Well, those are my thoughts on the matter =P
Exactly my thoughts on the matter :-P And not to mention the struggle for the mother, 9 months of pain only to send the baby away?I agree with you, and want to expand on the adoption one a little. A lot of pro-lifers say “well how about giving it up for adoption?” Do they realise how many children are put up for adoption? How many children go their entire childhood without parents because they get stuck in a system with hundreds of other children? How many children are shipped from home to home? Putting a child up for adoption sounds like a simple option, but a lot of those kids end up never finding a (good) home and living a difficult life.
Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland (South of Ireland) just passed abortion a few years back (after a dentist died giving birth to an already deceased fetus), and equal marriage fairly recently.
The North will probably never pass either given that one of the ruling parties is, like I said a hate group.
We don't really have that in the U.S. A majority of people in the U.S are moderate but sometimes you get your crazy political nuts here and there.
Northern Ireland is such a small county compared to the US so like try to imagine all the crazy in the US contained in one, much smaller place.
"Unless it leads to more crimes or more death"Imagine if Netflix had only 10 shows and people said Netflix shouldn't expand to 20 shows because those 10 new shows all suck
Just because you're fine with those 10 shows doesn't mean it's bad to have more than 10 shows. Those shows individually may very well be shitty, but I should be able to decide for myself if they're worth watching.
Imagine if you have a desktop computer and people advocate against the invention of a laptop because it's a downgrade from a desktop in terms of power. What's the benefit of NOT having the choice to get a laptop?
Imagine if the only choice for gaming is the Xbox and people protest the release of the Playstation. In other words, just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. If you don't want the playstation, that's fine. It'll still be there if you change your mind
Unless those choices show a direct increase in crime or deaths, it can ONLY benefit the person to have more choices. Everyone benefits from more choices. NO ONE benefits from less choices. A woman should be able to decide for herself if abortion is a worthwhile option. She can do the research and if abortion isn't it for her, she can leave it alone. If she feels she needs an abortion, it's there if she needs it.
The fetus is considered full-term between weeks 36 and 40, when it is sufficiently developed for life outside the uterus."Unless it leads to more crimes or more death"
....Abortion is killing the baby. That's a death.
So anyone on life support is not a life because they cannot survive on their own?If it CANNOT survive outside the womb, I don't consider it alive. I would never put the "life" of a week pregnant fetus on par with a full term fetus and definitely not to a grown adult. To me, life begins when it can survive outside the womb.
To be fair, they never said "survive on their own". They specified "survive out of the womb".So anyone on life support is not a life because they cannot survive on their own?
Edit: Also, what do you consider "survive on their own"? Sure the baby may requires the nutrients from the mother and such, but an infant requires the mother's milk as well, as they cannot feed themselves.
Well, yeah. I just assumed that it had to do with surviving on their own, because otherwise they would be arguing that the baby's location is what determines whether they are a life.To be fair, they never said "survive on their own". They specified "survive out of the womb".
I don't agree with them, but I felt the need to point that out.
Well, yeah. I just assumed that it had to do with surviving on their own, because otherwise they would be arguing that the baby's location is what determines whether they are a life.
I would like to think of solutions to unwanted pregnancy, to reduce the number of abortions, and I think better sex education is a start.
In one of the cases you mentioned, where the mother is at risk, I want to point something out.... Wouldn't it be murder not to preform the abortion? If the mother's life is at risk delivering the baby, then you have a choice. Baby or mother? Someone who has a life, people they love and who love them, or an unborn child who has not even experienced their first thought?Wow, I didn't know I'd find a thread on this. I have very strong feelings on this topic. Abortion is completely unnecessary in any situation. In financial situations, in cases of rape, in cases where the mother is at risk, it is unnecessary. It is murder. It should be illegal, and anyone who administers abortions should face legal consequences. I feel bad for Chile.. It used to be almost completely illegal there, but now rape cases are allowed for abortions. It should not be allowed. As a girl in high school, I'm saying if someone got me pregnant because I was unable to defend myself, I would not in a million years get an abortion.
Abortion shouldn't even be an option. It is murder.. Even in circumstances where the mother is at risk.. You do as much as you can to save the mother's life, and if the baby dies as an unfortunate consequence of that, that's the only time it's okay. Like say the mother has an illness and needs a medicine. You give her the medicine to save her life, but the baby dies as a consequence. That's the only time it's not murder, is when you don't intentionally kill the baby.
What about the baby's choice? Not only do you violate that human being's right to choose you also violate their right to life in the process of an abortion. I'm not suggesting it is easy or not painful to carry the baby during those 9 months of pregnancy- especially in the fringe cases where this is caused by rape. However, no amount of pain excuses murder. Causing someone suffering does not make you not be a life. No matter how much of it.There's a difference between living off a machine and living off a woman's womb and her having no right whatsoever to object. To force her to go through 9 months of pregnancy symptoms and all its consequences........... all for a baby she doesn't want. 9 months is 3/4ths of a year. That's not some game of CoD. That's a long time to be suffering. That's a tad different than living off a machine whose sole purpose is to keep you alive and a nurse attendant whose job it is to keep you alive. CHOICE is the keyword here
I don't like abortion, but rights over feels. If she doesn't want to carry, she should have the right to terminate. I advocate for the choice to be there, not for people to do it, just like advocating for the legalization of weed doesn't advocate actually smoking it. It's advocating for the CHOICE to smoke weed if you so choose.
There's no drawback to having it legal. More jobs, better family planning, safer procedures if you choose to terminate. If she really doesn't want the baby and it's illegal, she'll seek illegal means or seek a way to induce a miscarriage. Forcing her to carry against her will is ludicrous to me. If she wants to carry the baby, sure. If not, then terminate.
Moral stances are irrelevant when it comes to human rights.