Slav
Senior Member
What country are you from?
Other Pro Life or Pro Choice?
- Thread starter Sinnama
- Start date
What country are you from?
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Personally, I'm pro life. My stance on the subject is as simple as they come: You have no right to murder another human being except in self-defense.
In this case, I consider a pregnancy where the woman's life is at serious risk to be the only legitimate case for aborting a child. Even if the woman is raped, I believe that they should still have the baby, and from that point forward be given the choice to give up the child for adoption. Ideally though, woman should be given support in financial and emotional kind, to help them raise the baby. I am not saying it would be easy, but it would be right. I am not saying there wouldn't be pain, but in life you can't really escape having some of that.
I would definitely say woman who abort shouldn't be demonized, on the general principle that I don't think anyone should be demonized beyond their actual deeds, but no this isn't "freedoom over your body" cause the baby isn't your body, it's another human being who happens to be temporarly dependent on you. And even if you don't believe that, at least have half a mind to understand that people who believe that aren't trying to hurt you or mistreat you, they are just people who think it's wrong to kill babies. Even if they are the doctor you are trying to get an abortion from. It's frankly ridiculous how much the pro-life side of all things gets demonized.
Now, that said, I'm not sure about legalization. On one hand, I don't want to promote the practice- I think abortion should only ever be done, as mentioned, when the woman's life is in danger. That said, it's not like making it illegal will stop all abortions, and given the whole reason I'm against abortion is due to believing in life's inherent value above all else, I am hesitant to have women going to clandestine clinics where they and their babies could get all sorts of poor medical attention that could result in, among other things, their deaths.
In this case, I consider a pregnancy where the woman's life is at serious risk to be the only legitimate case for aborting a child. Even if the woman is raped, I believe that they should still have the baby, and from that point forward be given the choice to give up the child for adoption. Ideally though, woman should be given support in financial and emotional kind, to help them raise the baby. I am not saying it would be easy, but it would be right. I am not saying there wouldn't be pain, but in life you can't really escape having some of that.
I would definitely say woman who abort shouldn't be demonized, on the general principle that I don't think anyone should be demonized beyond their actual deeds, but no this isn't "freedoom over your body" cause the baby isn't your body, it's another human being who happens to be temporarly dependent on you. And even if you don't believe that, at least have half a mind to understand that people who believe that aren't trying to hurt you or mistreat you, they are just people who think it's wrong to kill babies. Even if they are the doctor you are trying to get an abortion from. It's frankly ridiculous how much the pro-life side of all things gets demonized.
Now, that said, I'm not sure about legalization. On one hand, I don't want to promote the practice- I think abortion should only ever be done, as mentioned, when the woman's life is in danger. That said, it's not like making it illegal will stop all abortions, and given the whole reason I'm against abortion is due to believing in life's inherent value above all else, I am hesitant to have women going to clandestine clinics where they and their babies could get all sorts of poor medical attention that could result in, among other things, their deaths.
rae2nerdy
left site
Exactly! If you don't mind my asking whereabouts are you from?
NottTheBravest
New Member
I’m from the Netherlands.
rae2nerdy
left site
That's interesting never heard the Netherlands come up in any debates but I suppose it's because you have a reasonable outlook on it
I am honestly at the point where I don't even bother talking with people IRL about abortions. If they bring it up I just redirect to talking about sex ed or childcare practices. Those are things a lot of people think are stupid in this country and no one gets in their feelings about them either. It's like no universally our education system is garbage and we need to make taking care of kids easier.
NottTheBravest
New Member
That's interesting never heard the Netherlands come up in any debates but I suppose it's because you have a reasonable outlook on it
I am honestly at the point where I don't even bother talking with people IRL about abortions. If they bring it up I just redirect to talking about sex ed or childcare practices. Those are things a lot of people think are stupid in this country and no one gets in their feelings about them either. It's like no universally our education system is garbage and we need to make taking care of kids easier.
Yeah, the Nerherlands is a pretty chill country. Abortion isn’t that big of a deal here, but it also helps that we have good sex ed and we’re pretty open about it anyway. I remember getting a book about sex and how the body works as a little girl, I think I was around 8? So I knew how everything worked at a young age, and sex ed at school was mostly a repeat of what I already knew. And I’m not the only one like it. My country doesn’t have this problem with teen pregnancies either, like the US does. It still happens, but it’s not like every high school has like 20 pregnant teens on it. We’re a pretty progressive country anyway, we were I think the first country to legalise same sex marriage and euthanesia is also a thing here. We still have groups who are against things, like this christian political party who is against abortion and same sex marriage, but the majority is okay with it because it’s normal for us.
Your public education system is really flawed. The things I know about it are just insane and make me ask “why????” So many problems could be solved if the government did something about it but it’s like they want the people to stay uninformed and in debt. Our school system used to give poor students money for free to help them persue a career, but when it became too expensive it became a loan system like in the US but the debt is nowhere near as high as in the US. Here it’s affordable, and if you end up not earning enough money to pay it all back after x amount of years (I don’t know for sure how many) your debt gets erased.
The Netherlands tends to get ignored in debates about things like abortions etc because we just don’t think it’s a big deal. You’re gay and want to marry? Go ahead. You want an abortion because you can’t afford a child? It’s your body. You’re ill and are going to die a painful death so you want to end it now? These doctors will help you. It’s just the way things are.
Satanic Nightjar
reach for the stars and don't settle for the moon
I myself am Pro-Choice, although, like @NottTheBravest said, I don't agree with the names we've given these two sides. Being "Pro-Choice" doesn't necessarily mean that we're for murdering children and are against "life" XD
That said, I don't honestly see an abortion as murder; I mean, you could argue that every time a woman chooses not to have a baby with a man she's stealing life from an unborn and helpless child. In reality, this baby hasn't even experienced it's first thought yet, it's not really a human. We may be taking away it's future, but it's one that hasn't yet come in to focus, and also one that may be filled with abuse and unhappiness. We all want children to find safe, loving homes, but even if a mother is against abortion and chooses adoption, that kid might not discover a home, and if they do, what if it's not a good one? What if they grow up feeling unloved, undeserving?
Well, those are my thoughts on the matter =P
That said, I don't honestly see an abortion as murder; I mean, you could argue that every time a woman chooses not to have a baby with a man she's stealing life from an unborn and helpless child. In reality, this baby hasn't even experienced it's first thought yet, it's not really a human. We may be taking away it's future, but it's one that hasn't yet come in to focus, and also one that may be filled with abuse and unhappiness. We all want children to find safe, loving homes, but even if a mother is against abortion and chooses adoption, that kid might not discover a home, and if they do, what if it's not a good one? What if they grow up feeling unloved, undeserving?
Well, those are my thoughts on the matter =P
The Mad Queen
Memento Mori. Unus Anus
Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland (South of Ireland) just passed abortion a few years back (after a dentist died giving birth to an already deceased fetus), and equal marriage fairly recently.
The North will probably never pass either given that one of the ruling parties is, like I said a hate group.
NottTheBravest
New Member
I agree with you, and want to expand on the adoption one a little. A lot of pro-lifers say “well how about giving it up for adoption?” Do they realise how many children are put up for adoption? How many children go their entire childhood without parents because they get stuck in a system with hundreds of other children? How many children are shipped from home to home? Putting a child up for adoption sounds like a simple option, but a lot of those kids end up never finding a (good) home and living a difficult life.
Satanic Nightjar
reach for the stars and don't settle for the moon
Exactly my thoughts on the matter :-P And not to mention the struggle for the mother, 9 months of pain only to send the baby away?
Slav
Senior Member
We don't really have that in the U.S. A majority of people in the U.S are moderate but sometimes you get your crazy political nuts here and there.
The Mad Queen
Memento Mori. Unus Anus
Northern Ireland is such a small county compared to the US so like try to imagine all the crazy in the US contained in one, much smaller place.
Slav
Senior Member
It's called Florida.
Emotional Enigma
Empathetic Empress
My mom and sister are super republican and pro life. I, however, am pro choice and more on the liberal side. No one is ever really "pro abortion". It's a difficult decision. I'm pro choice because I recognize someone else's body isn't my responsibility nor do I have the authority to force them into something. And that's the mentality I'd want if I had to make a decision like that.
Kylesar1
This is my loudest bork
Imagine if Netflix had only 10 shows and people said Netflix shouldn't expand to 20 shows because those 10 new shows all suck
Just because you're fine with those 10 shows doesn't mean it's bad to have more than 10 shows. Those shows individually may very well be shitty, but I should be able to decide for myself if they're worth watching.
Imagine if you have a desktop computer and people advocate against the invention of a laptop because it's a downgrade from a desktop in terms of power. What's the benefit of NOT having the choice to get a laptop?
Imagine if the only choice for gaming is the Xbox and people protest the release of the Playstation. In other words, just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. If you don't want the playstation, that's fine. It'll still be there if you change your mind
Unless those choices show a direct increase in crime or deaths, it can ONLY benefit the person to have more choices. Everyone benefits from more choices. NO ONE benefits from less choices. A woman should be able to decide for herself if abortion is a worthwhile option. She can do the research and if abortion isn't it for her, she can leave it alone. If she feels she needs an abortion, it's there if she needs it.
Just because you're fine with those 10 shows doesn't mean it's bad to have more than 10 shows. Those shows individually may very well be shitty, but I should be able to decide for myself if they're worth watching.
Imagine if you have a desktop computer and people advocate against the invention of a laptop because it's a downgrade from a desktop in terms of power. What's the benefit of NOT having the choice to get a laptop?
Imagine if the only choice for gaming is the Xbox and people protest the release of the Playstation. In other words, just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. If you don't want the playstation, that's fine. It'll still be there if you change your mind
Unless those choices show a direct increase in crime or deaths, it can ONLY benefit the person to have more choices. Everyone benefits from more choices. NO ONE benefits from less choices. A woman should be able to decide for herself if abortion is a worthwhile option. She can do the research and if abortion isn't it for her, she can leave it alone. If she feels she needs an abortion, it's there if she needs it.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
"Unless it leads to more crimes or more death"
....Abortion is killing the baby. That's a death.
Kylesar1
This is my loudest bork
The fetus is considered full-term between weeks 36 and 40, when it is sufficiently developed for life outside the uterus.
If it CANNOT survive outside the womb, I don't consider it alive. I would never put the "life" of a week pregnant fetus on par with a full term fetus and definitely not to a grown adult. To me, life begins when it can survive outside the womb.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
So anyone on life support is not a life because they cannot survive on their own?
Edit: Also, what do you consider "survive on their own"? Sure the baby may requires the nutrients from the mother and such, but an infant requires the mother's milk as well, as they cannot feed themselves.
Daisie
Strangely regular (better than the usual bizarre!)
To be fair, they never said "survive on their own". They specified "survive out of the womb".
I don't agree with them, but I felt the need to point that out.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Well, yeah. I just assumed that it had to do with surviving on their own, because otherwise they would be arguing that the baby's location is what determines whether they are a life.
Kylesar1
This is my loudest bork
There's a difference between living off a machine and living off a woman's womb and her having no right whatsoever to object. To force her to go through 9 months of pregnancy symptoms and all its consequences........... all for a baby she doesn't want. 9 months is 3/4ths of a year. That's not some game of CoD. That's a long time to be suffering. That's a tad different than living off a machine whose sole purpose is to keep you alive and a nurse attendant whose job it is to keep you alive. CHOICE is the keyword here
I don't like abortion, but rights over feels. If she doesn't want to carry, she should have the right to terminate. I advocate for the choice to be there, not for people to do it, just like advocating for the legalization of weed doesn't advocate actually smoking it. It's advocating for the CHOICE to smoke weed if you so choose.
There's no drawback to having it legal. More jobs, better family planning, safer procedures if you choose to terminate. If she really doesn't want the baby and it's illegal, she'll seek illegal means or seek a way to induce a miscarriage. Forcing her to carry against her will is ludicrous to me. If she wants to carry the baby, sure. If not, then terminate.
Moral stances are irrelevant when it comes to human rights.
Catori
Shelly Duck
Wow, I didn't know I'd find a thread on this. I have very strong feelings on this topic. Abortion is completely unnecessary in any situation. In financial situations, in cases of rape, in cases where the mother is at risk, it is unnecessary. It is murder. It should be illegal, and anyone who administers abortions should face legal consequences. I feel bad for Chile.. It used to be almost completely illegal there, but now rape cases are allowed for abortions. It should not be allowed. As a girl in high school, I'm saying if someone got me pregnant because I was unable to defend myself, I would not in a million years get an abortion.
Abortion shouldn't even be an option. It is murder.. Even in circumstances where the mother is at risk.. You do as much as you can to save the mother's life, and if the baby dies as an unfortunate consequence of that, that's the only time it's okay. Like say the mother has an illness and needs a medicine. You give her the medicine to save her life, but the baby dies as a consequence. That's the only time it's not murder, is when you don't intentionally kill the baby.
Abortion shouldn't even be an option. It is murder.. Even in circumstances where the mother is at risk.. You do as much as you can to save the mother's life, and if the baby dies as an unfortunate consequence of that, that's the only time it's okay. Like say the mother has an illness and needs a medicine. You give her the medicine to save her life, but the baby dies as a consequence. That's the only time it's not murder, is when you don't intentionally kill the baby.
Catori
Shelly Duck
Sex ed doesn't lower amounts of abortions. "60% of women in Britain who have gotten abortions claim they were on contraceptives. The journal Obstetrics and Gynecology recently published a meta-analysis of 23 research articles examining the impact of increased access to emergency birth control on unwanted pregnancy and abortions, concluding: "To date, no study has shown that increased access to this method reduces unintended pregnancy or abortion rates." Most papers find that sex education programmes have little or no impact on rates of teenage pregnancy or abortion. Sweden's programmes in sex education, and promotion of contraceptives, have been an admired model - yet total abortion rates there are now higher than ours (the U.S.)."
The only way to decrease rates of abortion is legislation making it illegal.
Satanic Nightjar
reach for the stars and don't settle for the moon
In one of the cases you mentioned, where the mother is at risk, I want to point something out.... Wouldn't it be murder not to preform the abortion? If the mother's life is at risk delivering the baby, then you have a choice. Baby or mother? Someone who has a life, people they love and who love them, or an unborn child who has not even experienced their first thought?
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
What about the baby's choice? Not only do you violate that human being's right to choose you also violate their right to life in the process of an abortion. I'm not suggesting it is easy or not painful to carry the baby during those 9 months of pregnancy- especially in the fringe cases where this is caused by rape. However, no amount of pain excuses murder. Causing someone suffering does not make you not be a life. No matter how much of it.
Human rights ARE a moral stance. A moral stance I am not even disagreeing with, nor is any pro lifer- quite the opposite.
