Other Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[Sinnama]

I really want this thread to have civil discussions and I'm interested to hear what other people's stances on this topic are. Lets not get too out of hand, please?

I'm mixed on the view, so I'm for the right to choose in some cases, whilst in some other scenarios, I'm pro life. Though I doubt I'd be labelled that since the only few reasons I'd be against abortion is it could be a waste of money, resources and in some cases, guilt. Personally, if you weren't using contraception then that's your fault and you need to take responsibility. If, however, you're underage or there is a chance that you won't be able to financially support the child then abortion should be given in these cases.

 

[Rusty of Shackleford]

I'm just happy everyone hasn't ripped each other to shreds over this. Most of the time that's what happens, in my experience. I'm extremely moderate on the topic. I'm normally very pro-life, as I believe everyone has the right to live, but I'm also aware that 1. You have the freedom over your own body, and I'm actually against the government interfering with abortion, either for or against it, and the circumstances of many pregnancies. Basically, while I don't always agree with it, I'm not going to stop them. It's their life, and they can deal with any guilt or lack thereof on their own terms.

 

[Axel The Englishman]

In the end, I'd say I'm a mix of the two. You should, of course, have the right of choice. It just shouldn't be your first consideration.

 

[SandraDeelightful]

I’m pro-choice, but I think it should be stigmatized. I can’t believe it when I see women claiming to be proud of their abortions, and I think it’s such a gross attitude. I don’t think that abortion should be outlawed. Abortion clinics existed before abortion was legalized, and if it must exist, I would prefer it to be done in a safe environment. I would like to think of solutions to unwanted pregnancy, to reduce the number of abortions, and I think better sex education is a start.

 

[Rusty of Shackleford]

I’m pro-choice, but I think it should be stigmatized. I can’t believe it when I see women claiming to be proud of their abortions, and I think it’s such a gross attitude. I don’t think that abortion should be outlawed. Abortion clinics existed before abortion was legalized, and if it must exist, I would prefer it to be done in a safe environment. I would like to think of solutions to unwanted pregnancy, to reduce the number of abortions, and I think better sex education is a start.

Fuckin' exactly! For the brief time I took sex ed, I learned literally nothing I didn't already know. All I was told was, "Don't have sex until marriage." What I should have been told was, "Don't have sex until marriage, but if you absolutely have to, for the love of God be safe." And it also makes me sick when women are proud they got abortions. You shouldn't be proud of it, it's just a choice you made.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I always think of it this way. I am not here to police other women's choices or reproductive system. I frankly don't give AF whether someone else has kids or not. I'm one of those weird ladies that never had any deep emotional connection to having children. Which is a WHOLE other rant for another day.

When it comes to abortions however I think the bigger issue is sex education, women's health, and programs that actually work to make life better for babies once they're born. So much of the pro-life focus is on punishing women for getting abortions when I don't see nearly enough focusing on how to make life easier and better so women aren't put in a situation (within reason) that they have to make a choice one way or another.

Starting with better sex education. Actually give children frank and informative information about safe sex practices and stop trying to demonize what is a fairly natural urge for most people. Let ladies have a realistic idea of what pregnancy actually entails. None of this mythical "you'll be glowing / miracle of life B.S.". Having a baby is hard. It's a taxing process on your body and raising a kid isn't always a walk in the park either.

Also along with this access to programs that can help women / low-income families actually take care of the kids once their born. Daycare is a big one, finding someone to watch your kid when you need to go back to work is a big thing.

(edited for clarity)

 

[SandraDeelightful]

Fuckin' exactly! For the brief time I took sex ed, I learned literally nothing I didn't already know. All I was told was, "Don't have sex until marriage." What I should have been told was, "Don't have sex until marriage, but if you absolutely have to, for the love of God be safe." And it also makes me sick when women are proud they got abortions. You shouldn't be proud of it, it's just a choice you made.

I don’t believe that teens should be taught to wait until marriage. I think they should be taught to wait until you’re ready to have sex, and they should be taught various types of birth control and protection. But anything is better than the currently in place Mean Girls “Don’t have sex, because you will get pregnant and die.”

 

[Rusty of Shackleford]

I don’t believe that teens should be taught to wait until marriage. I think they should be taught to wait until you’re ready to have sex, and they should be taught various types of birth control and protection. But anything is better than the currently in place Mean Girls “Don’t have sex, because you will get pregnant and die.”

I agree. I think that you're ready when you're ready. But yeah.

 

[Sinnama]

You guys have interesting views, I think that having an abortion shouldn't be celebrated but neither be looked down upon either. I think it's best to stay neutral in that case. What do you think about this statement?

"It doesn't really matter since even if it is a life, it doesn't mean that it has inherent value."

I heard a couple of people use this.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I don’t believe that teens should be taught to wait until marriage. I think they should be taught to wait until you’re ready to have sex, and they should be taught various types of birth control and protection. But anything is better than the currently in place Mean Girls “Don’t have sex, because you will get pregnant and die.”

Which is such a weird message when you think about it. Because so often that whole "if you have sex you'll get pregnant in die" thing only seems to apply if you aren't in a heterosexual marriage. When last I checked having a husband doesn't have anything to do with the likelihood of you having a difficult or dangerous pregnancy.

And some of them can be dangerous. My sister's first pregnancy her water broke a month early and my little nephew was born a preemie. She didn't even know her water had broke until she called my mom and then she freaked out. And she is a pregnant lady in her mid twenties. So it's not like her having a husband magically prevented that complication.

And it's equally as likely her second pregnancy would have been more or less the same (relatively easy all things considered) regardless if she had a husband or not.

 

[rae2nerdy]

"It doesn't really matter since even if it is a life, it doesn't mean that it has inherent value."

I heard a couple of people use this.

So when talking about abortion I think it's important to look at context. The above quote (or something very like it) is usually used when talking about medical abortions or when discussing the woman's health or suffering. The basic question is this : How much should a woman be made to suffer in order to bring a child into this world? Is it right to ask living women to suffer in the service of non-living children?


A lot of times this is in reference to situations wherein a pregnancy will prove fatal to the mother if it's continued. Or at least it will cause significant strain on her body that could lead to death. Sometimes it's also used in cases where women have been raped or sexually assaulted and the pregnancy is a reminder of their trauma. Again should a woman be made to suffer just to bring a child into the world?

 

[Slav]

I'm personally against abortion but politically I believe that an individual should have control over his or her body so If a girl has an unwanted pregnancy, should can do what she wants because she's an individual. The government should give the people a choice and not choose for them.

 

[adrian_]

abortion is sad but mom needs to not die during labor

 

[ABetterNickname]

In my country, and i presume in most countries, you can take a poverty-declaration to state that you are unable to sustain yourself. It's a legal remark to say you're very poor.
I would be in favor of giving this exception to the rule, as there is other exceptions, like in the case of rape or if the baby represent a threat to the woman's life. I would be very open to make this exception. Forcing someone who just can't take care of a child it's just creating suffering for no actual reason.

But i do think that treating woman who are able to raise a child and just want to abort to make their lifes easier as some kind of victim is really fucked up.
I also think that the "its a woman problem" is one of the worsts arguments i ever heard in any subject matter, like if only woman would be affected by this decision. I genuely think thats pretty fucking retarded. Having an abortion without even consulting your parter is one of the worst things i can imagine someone doing to another person.

It bothers me that people seem to now directly associate this question as a religious-zealocy, after all, im agnostic/atheist and i heavily favors the pro-life side in this. Your religion should play no role in the question about if you give a shit about the development of our society.

 

[rae2nerdy]

In my country, and i presume in most countries, you can take a poverty-declaration to state that you are unable to sustain yourself. It's a legal remark to say you're very poor.

I would be in favor of giving this exception to the rule, as there is other exceptions, like in the case of rape or if the baby represent a threat to the woman's life. I would be very open to make this exception. Forcing someone who just can't take care of a child it's just creating suffering for no actual reason.

But i do think that treating woman who are able to raise a child and just want to abort to make their lifes easier as some kind of victim is really fucked up.

I also think that the "its a woman problem" is one of the worsts arguments i ever heard in any subject matter, like if only woman would be affected by this decision. I genuely think thats pretty fucking retarded. Having an abortion without even consulting your parter is one of the worst things i can imagine someone doing to another person.

It bothers me that people seem to now directly associate this question as a religious-zealocy, after all, im agnostic/atheist and i heavily favors the pro-life side in this. Your religion should play no role in the question about if you give a shit about the development of our society.

Yeah not how it works in America even slightly. One we live in a society were womens health in general is treated as trivial and not important. We are also about one bad election away from being a functioning theocracy.

So in America at least Pro-Life is a hundred percent about punishing women at the government level at least. They pass laws gutting women’s health, make a big stink about sex education at schools, and make ALL abortions illegal even the ones that could save lives.

So it’s like there is a way to be actually pro life without just straight demonizing women. And it focuses on attacking the problem before abortion even becomes an issue, acknowledging that some pregnancies have complications, and stop policing women for making decisions about their health and body.

I see that a lot with the idea of “good” and “bad” abortions. Like 90% of reasonable people aren’t against medical abortions or promoting programs to actually help people care for the kids they do have. But they always have to pair that with some kind of attack on women who do it “wrong”.

Like oh well of course Susie should get an abortion the poor thing had a bad pregnancy and it would have killed her. But fuck Jan that slut just got one to be spiteful and selfish.

And I think that’s the problem, again talking about America specifically. It’s that in our country we pretty much throw Susie under the bus and leave her to die because we are so focused on punishing that nasty slut Jan.

That said I would be interested to hear the differences in other countries

 

[The Mad Queen]

In my country it's illegal regardless of circumstances with women having to travel abroad in order to terminate a pregnancy. All the reasons against seem to be "God said so" when that's absurd, especially given that the people pushing this policy are mostly middle-aged men.

 

[rae2nerdy]

In my country it's illegal regardless of circumstances with women having to travel abroad in order to terminate a pregnancy. All the reasons against seem to be "God said so" when that's absurd, especially given that the people pushing this policy are mostly middle-aged men.

And God/Jesus in fact never said any such thing. At least according to people who actually read the Bible.

Which so few of these “God-fearing Christians” ever actually seem to do.

 

[The Mad Queen]

And God/Jesus in fact never said any such thing. At least according to people who actually read the Bible.

Which so few of these “God-fearing Christians” ever actually seem to do.

It's illegal to do a lot of things in my country as it's a theocracy. So a lot of "Anti-Bible" is banned.

 

[rae2nerdy]

It's illegal to do a lot of things in my country as it's a theocracy. So a lot of "Anti-Bible" is banned.

Yeah my country is a hop and a skip from the same thing. Our best hope is that the vast majority of our populous are extremely anti religious, heck even some of the people of faith think our religious institutes are hot piles of garbage.

So getting a theocracy passed is sadly likely but it’s something the majority is fighting tooth and nail to prevent.

Racism I’m pretty sure is hear to stay though.

 

[Sinnama]

Wasn't it that somewhere in the Bible it advised women to take poison in order to deter unwanted pregnancies?

 

[ABetterNickname]

Yeah not how it works in America even slightly. One we live in a society were womens health in general is treated as trivial and not important. We are also about one bad election away from being a functioning theocracy.

So in America at least Pro-Life is a hundred percent about punishing women at the government level at least. They pass laws gutting women’s health, make a big stink about sex education at schools, and make ALL abortions illegal even the ones that could save lives.

So it’s like there is a way to be actually pro life without just straight demonizing women. And it focuses on attacking the problem before abortion even becomes an issue, acknowledging that some pregnancies have complications, and stop policing women for making decisions about their health and body.

I see that a lot with the idea of “good” and “bad” abortions. Like 90% of reasonable people aren’t against medical abortions or promoting programs to actually help people care for the kids they do have. But they always have to pair that with some kind of attack on women who do it “wrong”.

Like oh well of course Susie should get an abortion the poor thing had a bad pregnancy and it would have killed her. But fuck Jan that slut just got one to be spiteful and selfish.

And I think that’s the problem, again talking about America specifically. It’s that in our country we pretty much throw Susie under the bus and leave her to die because we are so focused on punishing that nasty slut Jan.

That said I would be interested to hear the differences in other countries

Here there is written law that allows some of those exceptions, as is the case for rape and also the risk of killing the mother. However giving another exception for exceptionally poor people is something that i would do if i had the power to do it. And i think they're that: exceptions.

What i heavily disagree is that abortion should be descriminalized. I don't agree with descriminalizing abortion in a broad sense.
I mean, today we have so much contraceptive methods, and in here girls can even take what we call "next day pill" for ultimate precaution. Im okay with all that.

But choosing to do an abortion if you would have the minimal condition to support the child, to me is just extreme irresponsability. Unless you can prove for absolute certainty that's a case of asexual reproduction... that's just what life is, buddy. That's how i see it. You should not be able to "jump" the natural course of life just because you don't want your life to get any harder, and i think that's the very majority of the cases. That shouldn't be just a "choice" and everyone should be okay with it. I really think that taking that approach would make our society much more primitive.

 

[The Mad Queen]

Yeah my country is a hop and a skip from the same thing. Our best hope is that the vast majority of our populous are extremely anti religious, heck even some of the people of faith think our religious institutes are hot piles of garbage.

So getting a theocracy passed is sadly likely but it’s something the majority is fighting tooth and nail to prevent.

Racism I’m pretty sure is hear to stay though.

My country is both very racist and theocratic. The ruling party is basically a hate group.

 

[ABetterNickname]

Yeah, that makes discussing this much more difficult once the source of the law is already corrupted.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Here there is written law that allows some of those exceptions, as is the case for rape and also the risk of killing the mother. However giving another exception for exceptionally poor people is something that i would do if i had the power to do it. And i think they're that: exceptions.

What i heavily disagree is that abortion should be descriminalized. I don't agree with descriminalizing abortion in a broad sense.
I mean, today we have so much contraceptive methods, and in here girls can even take what we call "next day pill" for ultimate precaution. Im okay with all that.

But choosing to do an abortion if you would have the minimal condition to support the child, to me is just extreme irresponsability. Unless you can prove for absolute certainty that's a case of asexual reproduction... that's just what life is, buddy. That's how i see it. You should not be able to "jump" the natural course of life just because you don't want your life to get any harder, and i think that's the very majority of the cases. That shouldn't be just a "choice" and everyone should be okay with it. I really think that taking that approach would make our society much more primitive.

I would say the exact opposite. That the number of people doing it for the lols is much less than people doing it for legitimate reasons. If only because in our country specifically it’s such a pain to get them (some states have no abortion clinics at all or just one for the whole state) that it is honestly easier to have the baby and hope for the best.

So if someone goes through all the unnecessary hoops our country has put in place than chances are it’s not a spiteful whim.

Edit : So I looked it up and I misremembered my previous point. The data showed that banning abortions didn’t actually stop the need for them. I think naming them easier to get did make them more popular. So that was my mistake.

That said I stand by the idea that criminalizing women is just plain wrong to me. It echoes so much of the controlling attitudes of those middle aged men that want women to essentially be reduced to property.

Especially since judging people doesn’t seem to actually stop them from getting abortions. Teaching them about sexual education and giving them access to contraceptives actually does though

 

[NottTheBravest]

I always thought it’s such a weird way to name it. “Pro life” or “pro choice”. Aren’t we all pro life? We all wants these children to have good homes and to be raised with love, but sometimes it’s just not possible. Sometimes the child being born brings the mother at risk of dying. Sometimes the child is a constant reminder of the traumatic rape the mother went through. Sometimes the mother can barely feed herself, let alone a newborn. And sometimes the mother just isn’t ready to be a mother yet, and when forced to become one will start to resent the child and raise him wit contempt and hatred instead of love. No matter the reason, a woman should have the choice to end her pregnancy. Despite what a lot of “pro life” people think, it’s not an easy decision. Ofcourse there are bad apples among them who are proud of it, but there are bad apples among every group. That doesn’t mean all women should suffer for it. A pregnancy isn’t something that you just go through while continuing your normal life. It’s difficult and painful and your body changes and you’re hormonal and it’s like that for 9 months.
We shouldn’t demonize abortions. It’s already difficult to choose to get an abortion, these women don’t need contempt from those around her. We need to teach girls (and boys!!!!) proper sex ed and health care so they can prevent unwanted pregnancies. We need to offer help to women with children who can barely get by. We need to teach boys to keep their hands to themselves and give girls tools to defend themselves from rapists. We need to eliminate the need for abortions. But we also need to teach girls that they’re not monsters or evil or heartless for getting an abortion. I live in a country where abortion has been legal for a long time. It’s not that big of a deal here. Does that mean women stop being careful and just get in line when they get pregnant again? No. But the choice is there if they need it, and they’re not painted as heartless monsters. That’s how it needs to be everywhere.