Character Theory Character Flaws in Story Structure

[Simon_Hawk]

Simple question. Can selflessness be considered a flaw? At first glance, one might say being selfless is a good thing. What happens to a person when that character trait leans towards the extreme? How does it hurt them and those around them?

 

[Crayons]

Simple question. Can selflessness be considered a flaw? At first glance, one might say being selfless is a good thing. What happens to a person when that character trait leans towards the extreme? How does it hurt them and those around them?

Yes! Well it all depends on what motivates the selflessness I think. For example, I have a character who would basically put himself in harm's way for other people. He genuinely valued other people's lives more than his own because he believed his life was kind of worthless and had rock bottom self-esteem. This led to people getting mad at him for treating his life with no respect, getting in trouble for doing reckless acts, his dad trying to send his girlfriend away because the fact that she was his girlfriend got out into the open when he ran off to rescue her from bad guys and got hurt ... all kinds of crapola. The only thing that really got through to him was his girlfriend who told him he should value his life as much as he did other people's, and he kind of realised at that point that he was disappointing everybody and hurting them. He also did other crazy self-destructive shit as well so it wasn't limited to selfless acts - that was just part of it. So yeah his loved ones really weren't too keen on this.

He was also a very generous person because he was a nobleman and had no idea how money worked, so he'd be like "hey you can have this [valuable item] no problem!" The finances didn't run dry during the RP so I guess he got away with this, but I can imagine this kind of attitude could easily cause problems. XD

I also think selflessness can be a character flaw if the character is walked all over by people like a doormat. Giving someone the shirt off your back can be ... uh, noble... but not if you then die of hypothermia just because you lacked the cojones to say no to someone.

 

[Simon_Hawk]

That really helps to clarify what I was kind of thinking, thanks!!

 

[Crayons]

That really helps to clarify what I was kind of thinking, thanks!!

No prob, happy to discuss things with you any time matey!

 

[Simon_Hawk]

No prob, happy to discuss things with you any time matey!

It's almost like you're some sort of teacher or something! Hmmmmm

 

[Simon_Hawk]

No prob, happy to discuss things with you any time matey!

Some friends and I were just discussing a couple of examples in film so anyone could get the idea, and we came up with Obi-Wan Kenobi and also Vash the Stampede. If you have any examples that fit the bill please share them.

 

[Laix_Lake]

Some friends and I were just discussing a couple of examples in film so anyone could get the idea, and we came up with Obi-Wan Kenobi and also Vash the Stampede. If you have any examples that fit the bill please share them.

Going to be honest, obi wan is selfless, but as a flaw...maybe? Guessing you're referring to his fight with Dark Vader?

 

[Simon_Hawk]

Going to be honest, obi wan is selfless, but as a flaw...maybe? Guessing you're referring to his fight with Dark Vader?

Yeah more or less, he was just selfless. I supposed we would need a more extreme example.

 

[Laix_Lake]

Shirou Emiya from fate stay night is one of the better examples of selflessness as a flaw. The guy had to deal with survivers guilt after getting saved by the aftermath of a major conflict. And cares about outhers to a point where he can't even enjoy himself when he is out trying to enjoy himself. This is nothing more than a simpfication of what he is, so take my summery with a grain of salt. The animated adaptations do tend to leave out some of the more detailed stuff from the visual novel.

 

[Ace Cream]

A father spent most his time helping his colleagues with their work, sacrificing his family time and unconsciously made his childs a stranger to him.

A boss easily get swayed by the pledge of one of his employee who just messed up big time. The boss forgive the employee and keep him in the work but the employee didn't learn from his past mistake and soured the work environment for all the other employees.

It doesn't need to be extreme but I think selfless as a flaw is best when it effects another character and not just the one who has the flaw. Especially in an RP.

 

[Dr Laudanum]

Simple question. Can selflessness be considered a flaw? At first glance, one might say being selfless is a good thing. What happens to a person when that character trait leans towards the extreme? How does it hurt them and those around them?

Each virtue, taken to an extreme, can be turned into a flaw. A virtue can also be a flaw depending on the context and depending on the people that are interacting with your character.

In fact, taking a virtue to an extreme or submit the character through an experience in which such virtue is, actually, a flaw, is one of my favourite forms of shaping their strengths and weaknesses.

Some examples were already given, but, if your character is selfless, and if they take that to an extreme, they may start suffer burnout, and it can affect all aspects of their personal and professional life: less time spent with family and friends, weakening bonds, less time to pursue personal interests and hobbies (which may lead to a lack of self-development and a feeling of frustration).

Such exhaustion can affect their professional life by making it hard for them to focus on their work due to exhaustion, which leads to low performance and can ultimately culminate on the character's professional ruin.

In my opinion, the most "human" characters are the ones where their virtues might also be considered their flaws.

 

[Simon_Hawk]

You guys are awesome! Thank you! Your advice and experience is very helpful

 

[Idea]

A lot of things can be flaws. I don't think having simple flaws is enough though, one needs what I call a "serious flaw". This is a flaw that is universal, negative personality trait which can reasonably be expected to cause the character to fail when it really counts.

Universal because a flaw which is only present “sometimes” is a plot device and nothing else. This doesn’t mean it always has to manifest- a character with anger issues doesn’t have to be permanently angry, but the line between what does or doesn’t trigger their issues should be consistent. If your character can reason themselves out of acting according to their flaws, then it is not a “serious flaw”, same if that flaw only seems to flare up when it is narratively convenient or some other type of convenient.

Negative, because albeit as others pointed out something positive taken to the extreme can become a flaw, that positive thing is not in of itself a flaw. Being too trusting can become being naive, but they are two different concepts- the overly trusting are fooled by others, but the naive can fool themselves. Your willingness to protect people can be exploited, your kindness can be exploited, but being exploited does not mean your actions, decisions or motivated are flawed, that would be blaming the actions of others on yourself. No, it is only when a trait is negative that a serious flaw can arise.

Personality trait for the simple reason we are talking flaws not handicap, an external weakness. A character can be weak and yet flawless. The character can have the greatest weaknesses and yet still be flawless. Much like positive traits this effectively means even if the character fails as a result, it will be something external that causes it, whereas a serious flaw brings the downfall by itself.

Lastly, the whole point of the serious flaw: it has to be reasonable to see it as something which could bring someone to fail when the stakes are high.

If we run selflessness through this, I don't think it is a flaw- serious or not- but I do think selfless can give rise to actual serious flaws. This mainly happens when one begins to disregard oneself unconsciously or irrespective of the good actually created for others.

 

[Melpomene]

Coming in to say selflessness can definitely be a flaw!

I am of the belief that just about anything can be a flaw if it is used in the right way. You simply have to strike the right balance such as when caution turns to cowardice, loyalty turns to blind unquestioning following.

However, I have to agree with Idea 's assessment in some regards as the important thing about a flaw is how you present it narratively. Crayons also touched on this, as one of the main problems behind a flaw is what drives your character to have this flaw. But further, what is very important are the consequences they face due to their own actions/flaws. Whenever thinking of a flaw to give any character, that is the most important thing which can be done to showcase it narratively. Where I see most writers mess up is that they have a flaw in mind but they don't let the narrative treat it as a flaw, making the flaw null and void, practically non-existent!

Selflessness, specifically, is a very broad trait. So to fully determine how effective of a flaw it would be, I would have to know how it manifests in the character and story. It should be consistent and not just come up for the sake of conflict/drama. This should be something that we see the character struggling with in both big and small ways.

It has already been mentioned, but emphasis on the character's own actions causing them grief. There is a reason many more seasoned readers/writers become wary when they hear a character's biggest flaw is "being too giving" or "being too nice". Your character certainly does not have to be an asshole or anything like that to be able to be an effectively flawed individual, but there is definitely a fine line to walk here. See, the problem with these flaws is it is often easy to cast the blame on the other parties, pointing out that the main character in question did nothing wrong per se, they just were tricked/ exploited by someone else.

For example, I have had people explain a character's flawed actions but gave every action a righteous cause, and in the end it always seemed the only reason this action went awry was because of interference from someone else. This really points out other people's flaws more than the character's.

But, in truth, I would say while selflessness is seen as a traditionally "positive" trait, I would assert it is more neutral, in all honesty. As is selfishness. Both of them are fine in small doses. It is good to be selfish to an extent and it is good to be selfless to an extent. It is when both traits reach excessive that it tends to become problematic. Excessive selfishness is rather self-explanatory.

Excessive selflessness is something that is not explored as much but I think can work given the right circumstances, as I have characters that somewhat show this trait.

I will speak of one in question: How she shows this is, at times, becoming a Martyr without a cause. This means she will sacrifice herself for no real reason. There will be ways to do it that don't involve her being put into danger and have a higher chance of success but will choose the least likely to be successful simply because she does not trust other people with the burden at hand and does not believe they can adequately protect themselves. And she will even pull stunts like this in rather low-stakes situations.

Now, to be truthful, the flaw is more that she refuses help and does not trust others more than her selflessness. But I believe selflessness is influential here.

But senseless sacrifice, self-destructive behavior caused from selflessness, or even something like them putting their honor before reason. I believe selflessness will definitely fall much more into internal conflict and will manifest less in conflict with other people as other flaws, such as over-aggression would. But that does not make it any less of an interesting conflict.

I hope all of this made sense, haha, I am really sleepy.

Anyways, happy writing!

 

[Kaihaku]

I think that any character trait can develop into a flaw when taken to the extreme. Honesty is generally considered to be a virtue but it can certainly be a flaw when taken to extremes. To loosely co-opt therapeutic criteria, an impairment becomes a disorder when it significantly disrupts personal function.

There are many great examples of selflessness taken too far. I think these are most compelling when the self-destructive behavior walks the line between acceptable and unacceptable. This lures the audience in and creates narrative tension. You love the character for their selflessness but also want them to stop because it's hurting them (and, often, limiting other character’s personal growth). Fruits Basket is a good example of this tension so I'll embed a story from it that's related.

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I think you are spot on about Vash the Stampede. His selflessness is definitely a character flaw and it does negatively impact the world. If he'd been a bit more selfish he might have been proactive, perhaps intentionally gathering allies, in order to confront certain things. Instead he tried to do it all himself and intentionally isolated himself. It makes him a tragic and compelling character.

I can’t talk about this topic without referencing what it’s like to love a Paladin. I was in a seven year long roleplaying campaign at another site and one of my characters was in a romance with another player’s Paladin. This developed organically and wasn't something we preplanned. It was brutal to watch her make selfless sacrifice after selfless sacrifice, breaking herself against the evil hordes while insisting on being healed last and refusing gear except the leftovers (or that provided by her deity). In real life, it would be a recipe for burn out and self-implosion. High Fantasy RP doesn't quite have that level of verisimilitude but it did lead to her falling behind mechanically due to not keeping her gear up to par.

It doesn't need to be extreme but I think selfless as a flaw is best when it effects another character and not just the one who has the flaw. Especially in an RP.

This was certainly the case in the example I just made. The Paladin was committed to her mission and destiny. It was the other characters who cared about her who really struggled with it.

 

[kibou]

I'm a part of the "anything taken too far can be negative" camp.

Too much selflessness could look like having no boundaries- not knowing how to say no, never giving a contradictory opinion, and feeling like a victim when people don't realize they're going against their wishes. Constantly doing what they're asked, overworking themselves, being taken advantage of financially, etc, possibly seething the whole time.

Deku from My Hero is a different but good, popular example. He put his life at risk to save a kid that had told him to kill himself and abused him his whole childhood, and then forgave this person despite still facing verbal abuse and made efforts to be friendly. Like sure, maybe a good supportive friend is what he needs to improve himself as a person but that friend definitely doesn't need to be and probably shouldn't be you. He's constantly putting himself in harms way because he wants to be a good person, and a good hero, despite it definitely not being his responsibility as a 14-16 year old, and literally destroys his body trying to be a savior for other people.

 

[CecilDMMasters]

It can be. I have a character who is a friend of my vigilante character and one of my RP characters refers to him as a Saint a lot. He a psychic character with empathy. His motivation by not wanting to see people suffer because no one will help them when the issue is pretty much emotional based.

While usually a voice of reason type character I've certainly had him get in trouble for being willing to risk danger to try to save people from a bad decision. Especially if he risked confronting them alone because his reasonable side told him they could be a danger while his emotional side still wanted to help.

 

[The One Eyed Bandit]

For sure. Any medicine is also a poison in too large of a dosage. I think it's kind of bland writing for every merit to always be a merit and every flaw to always be a flaw. It's rarely how people actually work.