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At the Adventurers' Table: Chapter Sixteen

Sherwood

Luna's Concubine
Supporter
Hey Dann, I'm not sure you and I are on the same page for my question. Let me try to clarify.

The item says:

Rod of Metamagic, Maximize​

SourceUltimate Equipment pg. 189, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 485

Aura strong (no school) CL 17th
Slot none; Price 14,000 gp (lesser), 54,000 gp (normal), 121,500 gp (greater); Weight 5 lbs.

Description​

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are maximized as though using the Maximize Spell feat.

Construction​

Requirements Craft Rod, Maximize Spell; Cost 7,000 gp (lesser), 27,000 gp (normal), 60,750 gp (greater)


What is the difference in the lesser, normal and greater versions? Is it being able to use the Feat once, twice or three times in a day?
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Psychie Psychie Ah! Says it right there in the description. "You can fire multiple arrows at a single target."

I think at some point in my hyperactive thinking, something in my brain said, "I don't mind Manyshot targeting two targets if the PC puts effort into that goal."

I still think they're two separate techniques though.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Hey Dann, I'm not sure you and I are on the same page for my question. Let me try to clarify.
The item says:

Rod of Metamagic, Maximize​

SourceUltimate Equipment pg. 189, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 485

Aura strong (no school) CL 17th
Slot none; Price 14,000 gp (lesser), 54,000 gp (normal), 121,500 gp (greater); Weight 5 lbs.

Description​

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are maximized as though using the Maximize Spell feat.

Construction​

Requirements Craft Rod, Maximize Spell; Cost 7,000 gp (lesser), 27,000 gp (normal), 60,750 gp (greater)


What is the difference in the lesser, normal and greater versions? Is it being able to use the Feat once, twice or three times in a day?
Sherwood Sherwood Ah! Details help. Thanks for providing them.

Yes, that's how it reads to me.
 

Psychie

Princess Psychie
So, just so I'm clear: If I fire off my volley of two arrows for my first attack using Many Shot, I cannot use Vital Strike with it. But since I have multiple shots in one round, I could use Vital Strike on my third arrow, then using my Rapid Shot Feat, fire off a fourth arrow that is back down to normal damage levels. Is this correct?
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
So, just so I'm clear: If I fire off my volley of two arrows for my first attack using Many Shot, I cannot use Vital Strike with it. But since I have multiple shots in one round, I could use Vital Strike on my third arrow, then using my Rapid Shot Feat, fire off a fourth arrow that is back down to normal damage levels. Is this correct?
Yes! Now you've got it. Let me lay out the math and details here:

1. Manyshot is specific in that it can only be used during Oreleth's Full Attack Action.
2. Vital Strike does indeed work as a third Attack.
3. Rapid Shot, however, is used at the beginning of the Full Attack Action. This means Oreleth must declare both Rapid Shot and Manyshot, taking Rapid Shot's -2 penalty to all Attack Rolls, including Rapid Shot's last (which uses her highest bonus with that -2 penalty).

Now, that reminds me of something important. One of the Shop Talk changes I mentioned making months ago included the ability for all Characters and creatures who have multiple Attacks per Round to be able to Move and still use their Full Attack Action (which in Pathfinder 1.0 requires a lot of Feat expenditure with limitations, but in AD&D 1st Edition was simply the way all PCs with multiple Actions worked). This means everybody gets a Move Action and a Full Attack Action (which works for Spells too). I remember wanting to see how well this old way of doing things "AD&D-style" works in our campaign.

I see I haven't yet added that to Shop Talk, so let me do that now and leave a note for Captain Hesperus Captain Hesperus Kaerri Kaerri and jaydude jaydude so everyone else is aware of it too. EDIT: Shop Talk has been updated with the following entry: "House Rule: Combat - All Characters and creatures may use the Full-Attack Action and Move Action in the same Round."

Remember that the vast majority of changes that we agree on here work the good, neutral, bad, and without Alignment altogether (in other words, everybody!).

That's why they call it "Mathfinder!" =)
 
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Psychie

Princess Psychie
Ok, I think I got it. I declare that I'm firing off arrows using both Rapid Shot and Many Shot. First shot is two arrows at a -2 on the roll, giving me a +15 to hit (+17 is my first shot bonus). Second shot is at +10, and a third shot is at +5. Then with the Rapid Shot, I get a fourth attack back at +15 to hit, for a total of five arrows in the air in one round. Wow. Oreleth is a real ass kicker.

So, if I want to cast a spell through an arrow. I only get the one shot in a round. Right?
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
This is why I think something like combining Manyshot with Vital Strike is a bit much unless serious and long-term effort is applied by the Player. Then hey! That's why I created Signature Abilities for Sharseya! =)

Ok, I think I got it. I declare that I'm firing off arrows using both Rapid Shot and Many Shot. First shot is two arrows at a -2 on the roll, giving me a +15 to hit (+17 is my first shot bonus). Second shot is at +10, and a third shot is at +5. Then with the Rapid Shot, I get a fourth attack back at +15 to hit, for a total of five arrows in the air in one round. Wow. Oreleth is a real ass kicker.

So, if I want to cast a spell through an arrow. I only get the one shot in a round. Right?
Let me take a look. I'll edit here in a moment.

EDIT: Okay, first thing's first. You guys are still running around with +1 and +2 gear. I cannot tell you how much I am looking forward to putting you through this module... if only that you will be able to upgrade your gear to something more worthy of 13th-Level PCs! =)

Psychie Psychie Okay, here's how I see it. Looking at Oreleth's Character Sheet, I don't know where you're coming up with "1d8+17 within 30 feet, 1d8+16 at over 30 feet." Even with Point Blank Shot, that Damage bonus of +17 is... way too high, I think. Am I missing something?

Now, at 13th-Level (and without knowing what Oreleth will select as her 13th-Level Character Feat), Oreleth will have a total of +19 "to hit" (+13 Base Attack Bonus, +5 DEX, Magic Composite Longbow +1) with a 2d6+4 to damage (+1 Arcane Archer Arrow, +3 STR bonus from Composite Longbow / +1 within 30 feet per Point Blank Shot).

So! If fully buffed with her Gravity Bow Spell cast, using her +1 Composite Longbow and +1 Arcane Archer-enhanced arrows, declaring at the start of her turn her combination of Manyshot with Rapid Shot following with Improved Vital Strike, her Attack Sequence looks like this:

Attacks per Round against a target within 30 feet.
1st - Manyshot (firing two arrows). "To Hit:" +17 (+19 First Attack, -2 Rapid Shot). Damage: 2d6+5 and 2d6+5.
2nd - Improved Vital Strike. "To Hit:" +12 (+14 Second Attack, -2 Rapid Shot). Damage: 5d6+5 (2d6 Gravity Bow, 3d6 Improved Vital Strike, +1 Arcane Archer arrow, +3 Composite Longbow +1)
3rd - Normal Attack. "To Hit:" +7 (+9 Third Attack, -2 Rapid Shot). Damage 2d6+5.
4th - Rapid Shot Bonus Attack. "To Hit:" +17 (+19 First Attack, -2 Rapid Shot). Damage: 2d6+5.

Total damage if all shots are successful, 13d6+25 [(2d6+5) (2d6+5) (5d6+5) (2d6+5) (2d6+5)] per Round.

Unless I'm missing something, that's it. And there is room for improvements! =)

(Whew! That'sa Lotta Math!)
 
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Sherwood

Luna's Concubine
Supporter
Being able to combine Vital Strike with the two arrow Feat would be quite nasty. I like it.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Ok, I think I got it. I declare that I'm firing off arrows using both Rapid Shot and Many Shot. First shot is two arrows at a -2 on the roll, giving me a +15 to hit (+17 is my first shot bonus). Second shot is at +10, and a third shot is at +5. Then with the Rapid Shot, I get a fourth attack back at +15 to hit, for a total of five arrows in the air in one round. Wow. Oreleth is a real ass kicker.

So, if I want to cast a spell through an arrow. I only get the one shot in a round. Right?
Yes! But let's see someone else try that not Web, Stinking Cloud, or Fireball themselves in the process!
 

Psychie

Princess Psychie
Let me go over my math for my damage with you. I thought I had added everything up correctly.

Deadly Aim - Trade BAB for damage; -4 to hit/+8 to damage - +8
Weapon Specialization - +2 to damage rolls with one weapon - Longbow - +10
Strength Bonus of +3 - +13
+1 from my Bow - +14
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. - +15
Point Blank Shot - +1 to hit and damage on targets under 30 feet away - +16 to damage
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Psychie Psychie Ah! Yes, this is what I get for doing math on a nearly-empty stomach; I didn't take all of Oreleth's Feats/Class Abilities into account. Okay, if adding those in, the math changes dramatically. Still, I think I see a few errors here on both our ends.

The Deadly Aim math appears inaccurate. Deadly Aim says a -1 "To Hit"/+2 damage benefit for every +4 of one's Base Attack Bonus. 13 (Base Attack Bonus)/4 = 3.25. She needs a Base Attack Bonus of +16 to have -4 "To Hit" and +8 to Damage. So, if Oreleth also declares Deadly Aim at its maximum, she's taking a -3 "To Hit" and gaining a +6 on Damage on all Ranged Attack rolls for that Round.

Every Composite Bow has a Strength limit and I don't see one on Oreleth's Character Sheet. Oreleth's altered Strength from her Gauntlets of Ogre Power, but I don't remember giving her a starting bow with a Composite Longbow with a +3 STR max on it as a starting bow (and I certainly didn't give her a bow that didn't have a STR limit). Is this Composite Longbow with +3 STR one I've forgotten about somewhere? My usual for a starting Character is a +1 bow giving +2 maximum for Strength. For example, Bren's Composite Hunting Bow is specifically a +2/+4 added STR bow.

Weapon Focus/Specialization adds +1 "To Hit" and +2 to Damage to all successful Attacks.

I added the +1 "To Hit" from bow's own (non-STR) magic, but I see I didn't add it to the Damage rolls (sometimes there is just too much math in Mathfinder.)

Weapon Mastery adds another +1 "To Hit" and Damage.

So! If Oreleth declares all of this... it should look like this:

Base "To Hit" (13th Level using only Passive Feats) : +20. At 13th-Level, Oreleth (+13 Base Attack Bonus, +5 DEX, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon Mastery).
Base Damage (13th Level using only Passive Feats): 1d8+6 (+1 Weapon Specialization, +1 Weapon Mastery, +1 Arcane Archer-enhanced arrow, +1 Magic Composite Longbow, +2 STR from Composite Longbow)

Using the following Spell and Feats against a target within 30 feet:
Spell: Gravity Bow (2d6 arrow damage for 1 minute/level).
Declared Feats: Deadly Aim (-3 "To Hit"/+6 Damage), Manyshot (1st Attack fires two arrows), Rapid Shot (extra shot at full bonus; all Attacks take -2 Penalty), and Improved Vital Strike (Triple Damage dice for one Attack) Feats.

Attacks per Round against a target within 30 feet:
1st - Manyshot (firing two arrows). "To Hit:" +15 (+20 First Attack, -2 Rapid Shot, -3 Deadly Aim). Damage: 2d6+24 (2d6 Gravity Bow, +6 Deadly Aim, +6 Base damage).
2nd - Improved Vital Strike. "To Hit:" +12 (+15 Second Attack, -2 Rapid Shot, -3 Deadly Aim). Damage: 6d6+12 (2d6 Gravity Bow, +6 Deadly Aim, 4d6 Improved Vital Strike, +6 Base damage).
3rd - Normal Attack. "To Hit:" +5 (+10 Third Attack, -2 Rapid Shot, -3 Deadly Aim). Damage: 2d6+12 (2d6 Gravity Bow, +6 Deadly Aim, +6 Base damage).
4th - Rapid Shot Bonus Attack. "To Hit:" +16 (+20 First Attack, -2 Rapid Shot, -3 Deadly Aim). Damage: 2d6+12 (2d6 Gravity Bow, +6 Deadly Aim, +6 Base damage).

Add +1 damage to any target within 30 feet from Point Blank Shot (put down here to keep the above math tidy).

I think that's everything at maximum minus any Critical Hits for x3 damage. 12d6+60 Hit Points/Round if everything hits (as best as I can tell; my brain's fried. This puts everyone else in the party to shame and makes her far more dangerous than even I realized. =) Time to eat and take a break).
 
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Psychie

Princess Psychie
Wow. I've been told that archers in Pathfinder are rather nasty, and these numbers are proof of that.

Of course, I would have to guess that Powerpaw is pretty significant in his attacks, too.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Uh, no. Not even with the Maul of the Titans. Powerpaw can't hold a candle to this. He has to get into melee to even try.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
And this with a starter bow. I'm going to have to rethink some things. Learned a lot here! =)
 

Sherwood

Luna's Concubine
Supporter
Just think how much worse it would have been if you had gone straight fighter, getting Feats every level. That would be real nasty.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Well, it's not so much breaking the game as kind of forcing me to up the Challenge Rating and the like. Sure, there are ways to nerf archers (taking out Gravity Bow would probably be a good start if we wanted to go that route).
 

Sherwood

Luna's Concubine
Supporter
Taking Gravity Bow out of the equation would drop the damage from 2d6 to 1d8; doesn't sound like much, but that difference will add up against bigger targets.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
It's up to you guys and gals. I have been playing this game far too long not to know how to adjust. My only worry is I just don't know how well you will enjoy the changes.
 

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