Time for another RPN Rant

[Lordvader59]

   A while ago, I wrote a topic called "Time for a RPN Rant" I spoke about how and why RPN is 95% cancerous roleplays which are carbon copies of one another, and 5% actually good roleplays. It was pretty well received so I'm gonna take another crack at that. The original post turned into a roleplay planning and was closed by the mods. So here we are again, let's discuss.

 

[Fishman Lord]

I'm not one to say what's "cancer" or not, that isn't the issue. The issue is the complete oversaturation and lack of anything else. Go do your "anime werewolf Harry Potter superhero high school", I don't care, but why do there have to be like 970 of them? It chokes out original, creative ideas and makes different ideas very hard to find for those who want them.

 

[ApfelSeine]

I would be reluctant to label anything as being cancerous for the sole reason that opinion cannot really be treated as objective fact. I have the roleplay types which I prefer, just as anyone else does, and I firmly believe that no person should be shamed for enjoying themselves. So while it may also get frustrating for me to see so many similar roleplays, I can understand why the popular ideas are so common. This is the reason that I really like the tag feature and search function, it allows one to seek out particular genres or keywords in order to narrow down the sheer amount of roleplays that get posted to this site.


To explain why "95%" of roleplays are so similar, or use cliche ideas, the simple reason that I can point to is "it is popular". Now, it might seem that there is no reason for people to make so many of them, but a lot of ideas are not really viable with 10+ players. So players interested in an idea can't all go to the same roleplay, which is why a second roleplay with a similar idea gets made. Then a third. Then a fourth. Etc.


In order to handle the sheer number of players who are interested in roleplays with similar premises, there needs to be a lot of them. It's a supply and demand type of situation. Considering that every player has a right to create or join in with the type of game they want to (in a particular genre/setting with a particular sized group), it is simply a situation that should be accepted. I recommend against labeling all of these ideas as terrible, since that is really just due to your personal preferences. If other people like them, then there is merit to them. You can avoid them usually by looking at the titles, but another way of narrowing down the field would be to utilize the search function which RPN uses.

 

[Vudukudu]

LordVader59 is my spirit animal for posting this. I'm not sure I'm going to actually explain the phenomena or help solve the issue at all, but man it feels good to have an opportunity to explain my frustration among people who may be similarly minded.


I have, more than once, gone inactive for an extended period because of this. I used to churn out detailed roleplays with hours and hours of world-building like it was my job. Early on, these things tended to be very well received, and it made the effort worth it on my end. The longer I've been here, the less willing I've been to write stuff up myself, because its just not worth the time anymore. If I put anything up, it is immediately drowned by high school AUs, "Avengers children" (which, come on, at least be original with your OCs?), vaguely non-consensual vampire romances, or whatever. 


Every once in a while, I'll see a really good idea, but they almost universally fail to gain a lot of traction, because frankly, I don't think most of the site's population base wants ideas that are original and unique and require more effort than self-inserts with anime appearance images. Along with that, because of the massive swell of other stuff, those of us who DO want that simply can't find it.


Tl;dr I remember when I could throw up an interest check and get a dozen responses for an idea that didn't involve Harry Potter / Loki / Vampire Angel love triangles. 


Oh! And this is not to ignore the middle-tier of RpNation. There are plenty of things out there that are well-written and interesting and clever, and I appreciate the people who do that stuff. My trouble is that its generally not within my field of interest, so I (and about 15+ people I used to roll along with pretty regularly) have, to varying degrees, felt like we no longer have a place in the site because the only material we have a lot of interest in is stuff we write ourselves. 

 

[augmentedspartan]

Because people roleplay for fun. This isn't like films, books, or videogames, which are made for customer consumption. RPs are made solely for the enjoyment of the players, which means that there aren't any quality requirements as long as the players are happy with it. I never understood the need to put down people for "not being original", can't people just enjoy whatever they want? It's not that hard to ignore an RP you don't find interesting. I'm actually ignoring hundreds of RPs this second, and it's taking literally no effort.


As for why there are so many, exactly what ApfelSeine said, supply and demand. But it's not just that RPs get crowded that people make copies, but also because they might want to change something. It might be a big part of the RP, or maybe something really small. But that's the beauty of RPs, you can control every single element of the setting to your liking.

 

[call me rae]

Well as someone who started out in these so called cancer roleplays I'll add in another reason they're so popular - they're a very good starting off point for people new to roleplay. Because these "unoriginal" ideas are something that a wide audience can understand and relate to without having to be intimidated by learning new terms, new worlds, new plot lines, etc.


So for the newbies, or the people that just play to have a casual bit of fun, these "unoriginal ideas" are exactly what they're looking for. They're accessible in terms of the person not having to learn or study paragraphs and paragraphs of world building. It's easy to make characters so they don't have to feel intimidated with making up a character that fits a whole new world if they are just starting out creating them. And it is something they've seen done so many times before that they think it must be easy and thus something they can easily accomplish without having to keep up with someone who is so far above them.


If your worried about finding a roleplay you like I would focus two things and ignore what everyone else does.


1. have patience. no one finds partners right away. at least no one that wants a partner for more than a week and is going to post more than a line of text.


2. focus on finding people that share your interests or your roleplay style. don't focus so much on the plot. the plot is immaterial. the reason those roleplays are successful is because they appeal to they appeal to the widest audience. if you are looking for quality over quantity than that's where i would put my focus. 


reach out to people you see that share your interests. keep in touch with people whose style you like. that's how you build a network of good players that can then fill your roleplay with.

 

[Crispy Fries]

To be honest, I do kinda have a gripe with how oversaturated these genres are. I just ignore them, but it's a little annoying to see the 100th rp in a row starring generically attractive teenagers or some Avengers AU.


One of the reasons I tend to stick to the sci-fi section is that the stuff there isn't usually as stale.

 

[Idea]

To be honest, anytime I see a thread like this, saying "there´s too many of this therefore it´s bad" it makes me roll my eyes. For the very simple reason that I think it buries the real issue on a mountain of stuff that aren´t even real issues, while the core , the root of the problem is ignored. I could come and say "there´s too many RPs in paragraph format", and sure there are many, but are there too many? "Paragraph format" is such a general label that it really speaks of little to nothing of the RP´s contents, and the same can be said to a lot of what is being called "cancer" in this thread. It has already been spoken that people enjoy these ideas and @call me rae even pointed out an argument I often give in defense of highschool roleplays, that they are a platform, however I tend to go a step further and say they are more than just for new roleplayers, but also for roleplayers who prefer to put their attention elsewhere. After all, people on RPN still have lives outside of it, sometimes the time to think of every detail for a creative new setting is just not that pratical. It´s the things where they DO focus their attention that then establish the merits and faults of a highschool RP. And, generalizing, this is but an example of the forgotten phenomenon that two of those "cancer " roleplays can and will widely vary within their contents.


However, I do agree a lot of them share the same basic content, but what I often see is that genre has NOTHING to do with it. The bigger issue at hand, as far as I can see, is the mentality of "I feel like it" and of "I need no rules, I want more freedom". Yes, freedom for creativity is important and of course you shouldn´t work for a hobby that  you don´t enjoy, but the line has to be drawn as to what is knowing if something is worth it, and the other is being too lazy to invest in it. Often? The second. Highschool roleplays, for example, fail stupidly easy to overcrowding and to members losing interest because they´re just talking in a void. Neither GM nor players had anything prepared that wouldn´t take a month to even start and even when it did start , the GM would mystery plot through it, leaving players bored and clueless.


In short, numbers is not the issue, only content could be, and even then, you can dig deeper and you will find that it´s the approach people have to roleplays in general that often sets them ablaze. Is this the case everytime? Of course not. The reasons are so many that nobody could name them all. But, from my experience, this is a leading cause in the death of a lot of things, by being an unseen root that leads to most problems that eventually kill roleplays, such as sudden player absence, the plot stalling, shitty characters in general, etc...


And on a sidenote, allow me to throw out a complaint about people who think that something is wrong with the site just cause they don´t get attention. Sure, you may enjoy it, but I hope I don´t have to show again how low the odds of some niche ever seeing the roleplay of another member of that niche, even if they are on the first page. And on top of that, half the times, the people who complain didn´t even bother searching themselves or compromising with someone in any way.

 

[TPBx]

I would be reluctant to label anything as being cancerous for the sole reason that opinion cannot really be treated as objective fact. I have the roleplay types which I prefer, just as anyone else does, and I firmly believe that no person should be shamed for enjoying themselves. So while it may also get frustrating for me to see so many similar roleplays, I can understand why the popular ideas are so common. This is the reason that I really like the tag feature and search function, it allows one to seek out particular genres or keywords in order to narrow down the sheer amount of roleplays that get posted to this site.


To explain why "95%" of roleplays are so similar, or use cliche ideas, the simple reason that I can point to is "it is popular". Now, it might seem that there is no reason for people to make so many of them, but a lot of ideas are not really viable with 10+ players. So players interested in an idea can't all go to the same roleplay, which is why a second roleplay with a similar idea gets made. Then a third. Then a fourth. Etc.


In order to handle the sheer number of players who are interested in roleplays with similar premises, there needs to be a lot of them. It's a supply and demand type of situation. Considering that every player has a right to create or join in with the type of game they want to (in a particular genre/setting with a particular sized group), it is simply a situation that should be accepted. I recommend against labeling all of these ideas as terrible, since that is really just due to your personal preferences. If other people like them, then there is merit to them. You can avoid them usually by looking at the titles, but another way of narrowing down the field would be to utilize the search function which RPN uses.

tldr, we're all nerdy potterheads, weeaboos, mxm shippers, and supernatural fans and those are the only roleplays in demand.

 

[Bone2pick]

Every once in a while, I'll see a really good idea, but they almost universally fail to gain a lot of traction, because frankly, I don't think most of the site's population base wants ideas that are original and unique and require more effort than self-inserts with anime appearance images. 

When I'm looking to join an RP or create one of my own, I don't aim for what I imagine most of the site's members would want; I shoot for more ambitious content.  There're fewer of them for sure, but that's to be expected.  The trick is luring the right kind of players to your projects.  Keep in mind, your target audience will have high standards, so you better put the work in.  Forgive the overly used quote, but I feel it sums up my thoughts on your gripes perfectly: If you build it, they will come.

 

[DerUbermensch]

Sturgeon's Law is always in effect.  


I often have a lot of ambition in my RP.  With that comes some expectations.  Since I've been RPing for about 10 years, I often prefer RPing with mentally mature folks.  RPing is fine and dandy, but the RPers should always act their age.  I've seen it all when it comes to antics; there's always the little kid or the "jerk who ruins it for everyone" player.

 

[HarleyQuip]

The thing that really aggravates me is that it's insanely difficult to find a roleplay that has a good story, decent/experienced roleplayers... who also don't prefer to post once a day. Like... I understand... everyone has busy lives and stuff to do outside of a roleplay but waiting an entire day to turtle forward with the plot and story is absolutely draining and frustrating as well. Even if it was 2-3 times a day... the one time a day is extremely painful and detrimental to roleplays that aren't epic novels.

I worked 70 hours a week for an IT company, I was available 24/7 and still managed to have a social life, and roleplay... I don't understand what is so difficult. @Lordvader59

 

[Shireling]

The thing that really aggravates me is that it's insanely difficult to find a roleplay that has a good story, decent/experienced roleplayers... who also don't prefer to post once a day. Like... I understand... everyone has busy lives and stuff to do outside of a roleplay but waiting an entire day to turtle forward with the plot and story is absolutely draining and frustrating as well. Even if it was 2-3 times a day... the one time a day is extremely painful and detrimental to roleplays that aren't epic novels.

I worked 70 hours a week for an IT company, I was available 24/7 and still managed to have a social life, and roleplay... I don't understand what is so difficult. @Lordvader59

Yes, to all of this. 

 

[Shireling]

Have you guys thought perhaps we should make some sort of thread for "top tier" roleplayers to advertise in and share ideas? Sort of a country club for RPN? 

 

[NemoTheSurvivor]

The thing that really aggravates me is that it's insanely difficult to find a roleplay that has a good story, decent/experienced roleplayers... who also don't prefer to post once a day. Like... I understand... everyone has busy lives and stuff to do outside of a roleplay but waiting an entire day to turtle forward with the plot and story is absolutely draining and frustrating as well. Even if it was 2-3 times a day... the one time a day is extremely painful and detrimental to roleplays that aren't epic novels.

I worked 70 hours a week for an IT company, I was available 24/7 and still managed to have a social life, and roleplay... I don't understand what is so difficult.

Some people aren't able to write at the same level as you.


Let me put it this way. For someone to write a "quality post," it may take them four hours to sit down, figure out how to write their next post, write it, and make sure they like it. For you, it may take an hour, maybe less. For others, it may take longer to write something they're comfortable with. I will say writing an average post every other day is better than writing a perfect post once a week is preferred, but not everyone is able to post at an average level at the same time.

Have you guys thought perhaps we should make some sort of thread for "top tier" roleplayers to advertise in and share ideas? Sort of a country club for RPN? 

Top Tier? How do you even define that? How well they create characters? How long they've been RPing? How many paragraphs they post? How often they post? This sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[Shireling]

Top Tier? How do you even define that? How well they create characters? How long they've been RPing? How many paragraphs they post? How often they post? This sounds like a terrible idea.

You might notice how I put it in quotes. I don't mean to imply some sort of superiority with objective measurements. I was simply referring to the relatively small community of those devotees to more "conventional literary" role-playing, as in RPs with actual literary themes, a novel-like style, and complex plots. 

 

[HarleyQuip]

Some people aren't able to write at the same level as you.


Let me put it this way. For someone to write a "quality post," it may take them four hours to sit down, figure out how to write their next post, write it, and make sure they like it. For you, it may take an hour, maybe less. For others, it may take longer to write something they're comfortable with. I will say writing an average post every other day is better than writing a perfect post once a week is preferred, but not everyone is able to post at an average level at the same time.


Top Tier? How do you even define that? How well they create characters? How long they've been RPing? How many paragraphs they post? How often they post? This sounds like a terrible idea.

it takes maybe 20-30 minutes to write a post like I do, and that's if I'm not caught up with the story. If I am it only takes maybe a maximum of 15 minutes. I'm sure people can find an hour out of their entire day (split up 3 times for 20 minute writing) to post more than once. Posting once has nothing to do with skill level, it's laziness and the unwillingness to do more than necessary. It holds roleplays back and reduces the roleplay experience for some.

It's really not such an out of this world request. It's a simple courtesy to the creator/writer of the plot. If you have that little time in the first place to roleplay... you shouldn't be roleplaying at all, there are plenty of things that can get in the way of 1 post a day if you're actually that busy. It's not fair to the writer, and not fair to the people who want to proceed. But hardly anyone thinks of others in these situations.


Like... let me put it this way..... someone puts 6-20 hours into a very detailed and elaborate story to enjoy and experience and what do they get in return? People who post once a day and carry on their marry way without any second thought or consideration to the progression of the plot or the people who are genuinely interested. Someone takes almost 1-3 BUSINESS days to write this story out, free of charge, and for all to experience... and people can't even post more than once a day. It's bullarky.

 

[Vudukudu]

You might notice how I put it in quotes. I don't mean to imply some sort of superiority with objective measurements. I was simply referring to the relatively small community of those devotees to more "conventional literary" role-playing, as in RPs with actual literary themes, a novel-like style, and complex plots. 

While I like the concept, its begging for people to accuse elitism and have it shut down. 


That said, such a system would naturally filter itself out regarding membership. People who want in would seek it out, those who didn't wouldn't. Still have to worry about it getting banhammered for discrimination or whatever. 

 

[Shireling]

While I like the concept, its begging for people to accuse elitism and have it shut down. 


That said, such a system would naturally filter itself out regarding membership. People who want in would seek it out, those who didn't wouldn't. Still have to worry about it getting banhammered for discrimination or whatever. 

I actually didn't know there was a policy against "elitism."

 

[Vudukudu]

I actually didn't know there was a policy against "elitism."

I don't think there is technically, but I've also been around long enough to see a number of different attempts at classifying tiers of roleplay fail because the "lower end" accuses the "higher end" of bullying and not letting them in. No one likes being "beginner" or "casual" when you could be "Advanced" or "Detailed" but the people in the latter categories tend to uphold standards a lot of people don't meet. 


I'm particularly sensitive to the dangers of setting up any sort of formal or informal high-bar because I was reported years ago for rejecting a character that was an abysmal, lore-breaking offense to the roleplay and the effort of other writers involved who had actually abided by the rules and lore I had created. Having clarified the reasons for rejecting said character, the other guy escalated until I asked him to shove off because it was no longer a constructive conversation. I got penalized for being unfriendly or something, because protecting the integrity of my writing standards is essentially a punishable offense. 

 

[charleen]

it's not that deep yall 

 

[Quillicious]

i mean...


majority of the community can be labelled as such:


edgy teens,


weebs/"otakus",


lgbt/sjws,


self-proclaimed "random" people that "XD" themselves over anything remotely entertaining,


fandom trash,


and the rare group of actually decent roleplayers.


it's the hard truth,


don't get pissed cause i speak it when everyone knows it.

 

[augmentedspartan]

it takes maybe 20-30 minutes to write a post like I do, and that's if I'm not caught up with the story. If I am it only takes maybe a maximum of 15 minutes. I'm sure people can find an hour out of their entire day (split up 3 times for 20 minute writing) to post more than once.

Believe it or not, not everyone has the same skill level. Like NemoTheSurvivor said, some people like/need to take more time with their posts. Just because you can crank out posts in 15 minute doesn't mean your RP partner can.

Posting once has nothing to do with skill level, it's laziness and the unwillingness to do more than necessary.

Or the fact that some people aren't that good with words. Or that English might be their second (or third) language. Or that they have too much important stuff to do that day to post more than once. Or actually a lot more reasons than just laziness.

It's really not such an out of this world request. It's a simple courtesy to the creator/writer of the plot. If you have that little time in the first place to roleplay... you shouldn't be roleplaying at all, there are plenty of things that can get in the way of 1 post a day if you're actually that busy. It's not fair to the writer, and not fair to the people who want to proceed. But hardly anyone thinks of others in these situations.

It's not fair to the person to say that they shouldn't roleplay because they can't meet your arbitrary standards. Like I say every time, RPing is for fun, not to create the next Infinite Jest. RP with the people that you feel suit your needs, but don't go down trash talking others just because they don't have the time to keep up with you.

 

[HarleyQuip]

Believe it or not, not everyone has the same skill level. Like NemoTheSurvivor said, some people like/need to take more time with their posts. Just because you can crank out posts in 15 minute doesn't mean your RP partner can.


Or the fact that some people aren't that good with words. Or that English might be their second (or third) language. Or that they have too much important stuff to do that day to post more than once. Or actually a lot more reasons than just laziness.


It's not fair to the person to say that they shouldn't roleplay because they can't meet your arbitrary standards. Like I say every time, RPing is for fun, not to create the next Infinite Jest. RP with the people that you feel suit your needs, but don't go down trash talking others just because they don't have the time to keep up with you.

If you can't post at least once a day there's no point in roleplaying. Again it's holding the creator of the story and other people back. I'm not trash talking just sick of people wanting to participate but not willing to put in the work. Yes roleplays are supposed to be fun and for some people the fun of it is story progression I'm sorry if you feel personally attacked but it's not my fault you can't keep up. I understand some days it's hard to post, even once... but you need to have the common sense to decide rather or not you can handle roleplaying.

The main reason people only post once a day is because they're part of multiple roleplays. Which, again, is unfair to the writer. Is it really that crude of me to stand up for people's creations? Again it's not a lot it's 2 or 3 posts. But if you don't agree than we can agree to disagree and you can avoid any of the roleplays I make. It's okay for me to have standards, and it's okay for you to get upset.

 

[Shireling]

I don't think there is technically, but I've also been around long enough to see a number of different attempts at classifying tiers of roleplay fail because the "lower end" accuses the "higher end" of bullying and not letting them in. No one likes being "beginner" or "casual" when you could be "Advanced" or "Detailed" but the people in the latter categories tend to uphold standards a lot of people don't meet. 


I'm particularly sensitive to the dangers of setting up any sort of formal or informal high-bar because I was reported years ago for rejecting a character that was an abysmal, lore-breaking offense to the roleplay and the effort of other writers involved who had actually abided by the rules and lore I had created. Having clarified the reasons for rejecting said character, the other guy escalated until I asked him to shove off because it was no longer a constructive conversation. I got penalized for being unfriendly or something, because protecting the integrity of my writing standards is essentially a punishable offense. 

Well, like I said it would be less of a hierarchy and more of a social club. Surely an exclusive club of some sort is permissible?