Other [deleted]

We should have girl scouts and boy scouts. There's no need to mix the two; There's no need to take the privilege of boys being around boys, or girls being around girls.

This is one thing the 'PC' people should stay away from. They're kids, for gods sake.
 
Here in Canada, Scouts and Guides have different program. That's out of the history of the scouting unit - originally, boy scouts were pupils of Lord Baden-Powell's book, and the girls wanted to join in. Lord Baden-Powell's wife Olave and sister Agnes started the Girl Guides (he wanted to call them the Happy Homemakers) to teach young girls how to be women in the early 1900s.

The girls program relies more heavily on service and discussion than the boys. The Scouts are very into tradition and colour parties, the guides.. aren't.

As the Girl Guides' aim to empower young women is often seen as oppressing. I disagree, as a member of the program, but you can think of that how you wish.

The Scouts here DO allow girls. Very few girls join their program but it is an available option.

The Girl Guides, however, allow boys under very few circumstances.
Transgender individuals who identify as female OR that have been rejected by Scout troops are often allowed to join.
In some circumstances, volunteers who are rejected from Scouts (such as gay men) have been allowed to become Guide leaders.

The Guides have (on several occasions) debated the allowance of boys in a female-oriented program. This has been shut down due to a fear of sex assaults. The Scouts and their leaders have historically been much more liable to commit crimes - such as 65 cases kept quiet - and Guides provides an environment for girls to talk about life and their bodies. (I don't think men are more likely to sexually assault then woman, but the scouts CERTAINLY have a history of such.)

Do I think boys should be able to join Girl Guides? Yes. Yes I do.
We have more than two tents per camp per troop anyways, and honestly, the program is far enough apart that in my opinion a child and their parents should together make an informed decision.

As far as facilities, no Girl Guide is going to squeak at a urinal, we're the ones that deal with your spiders. :wink:

(also, the girl guides of ontario are closing our camps, so we're at yall throats anyway)

Sources: I'm a Ranger (16-18) who has been a Guide since I was 12 and now volunteer with 8-12 year-old girl guides (including a transgender child).
 
in the uk anyone can join scouts. however we do have girl guiding, which is girls only.
 
I don't see why not. But I've always found the whole idea of separate gender groups to be more than a bit silly.
 
i dunno, just look at the damn name of the scouts.

boy scouts got the damn word boy in it, so it should be pretty obvious where which sex is suppose to be where.
 
Well, considering the fact that virtually every other country has gone co-ed, I suspect the U.S. will, too.

I'm involved in scouts, and fully expect to see this by 2030. Quite frankly, the U.S. scouting movement has been in decline for decades, and this will probably be what's needed to save it. Besides, the Venturers are co-ed already, so it's not like it would be anything new.
 
Why does everything that doesn't include girls have to turn into a feminist discussion?

I am not in any way saying that I think ALL that feminists have accomplished is bad. Quite a few things they have done are very good and useful. But sometimes, they just need to chill.

For stereotypical girls, nobody wants a nail painting, insect fearing, makeup loving princess whining that she's staining her floral jeans on their camping trip. Also, they have Girl Scouts and Venture Scouts.

For non-stereotypical girls, yes, I love critters, climbing trees, and getting dirty. But I'm not going to ruin some boys' camping trip because I can't handle as much weight as they can.

I really want to know why Girl Scouts AND Venture Scouts supposedly can't handle all the girls who want to do what the boys do.

Speaking from personal experience, I could handle playing with the boys... until I was 14. That's when a skinny kid beat me in a wrestling match. Helped his self esteem at least...
 
Rachael of the Shire said:
Why does everything that doesn't include girls have to turn into a feminist discussion?

I am not in any way saying that I think ALL that feminists have accomplished is bad. Quite a few things they have done are very good and useful. But sometimes, they just need to chill.

For stereotypical girls, nobody wants a nail painting, insect fearing, makeup loving princess whining that she's staining her floral jeans on their camping trip. Also, they have Girl Scouts and Venture Scouts.

For non-stereotypical girls, yes, I love critters, climbing trees, and getting dirty. But I'm not going to ruin some boys' camping trip because I can't handle as much weight as they can.

I really want to know why Girl Scouts AND Venture Scouts supposedly can't handle all the girls who want to do what the boys do.

Speaking from personal experience, I could handle playing with the boys... until I was 14. That's when a skinny kid beat me in a wrestling match. Helped his self esteem at least...
Click to expand...

Glad someone can see some sense. Merging the two would be complete disaster. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt or someone needs to be 'catered' to. To put things bluntly, the whole special snowflake thing needs to stop. With transgender kids, fine, I think that's a bit of a different story, but just girls being allowed in boy scouts? Um. It's called BOY scouts for a reason, lol. As you said, venture scouts and all that do all similar stuff, or at least they could - I don't get why people can't just be grateful with what they have?
 
I think people are getting more hung up on the "boy" part, than the "scout" part. Scouts around the world are becoming inclusive of both genders, and that has yet to lead to the downfall of the organization. There is often still gender separation by troop, and that's fine if that's what the parents want for their kids. In fact, there is some research to suggest that there are benefits to being around a peer group of the same gender. That said, if girls being a part of the organization hasn't ruined it elsewhere, there's no reason to believe it would do so over in America.

Venture scouting does exist, but only starting at ages 13-14. As Rachael of the Shire Rachael of the Shire remarked, that was the time it became more difficult to match boys physically. Given that this is the point where physical differences start to matter, why should there be separation before then? Little boys and girls don't have that difference in average strength or stamina that exists in their older counterparts. Their abilities are the same, so my perspective is that it makes even more sense to have a co-ed option be available.

The reason that this change is being considered is because the BSA as an organization want to cater to the modern, dual earner family by including everyone. It's a change that has already been made in the UK, where the Boy Scouts have become the Scouting Association, and it's worked out for them for years. Plus, since they already have the venturing branch for older scouts, there isn't much reason to say that girl scouts cannot be a part of the organization when they are younger. (As a side note, venturing troops can elect to be all male, all female, or coed. I believe a similar policy will likely be in place for the cub scouts or boy scouts, depending on the age they intend for this to apply to.)

As a former girl scout, and someone who had worked with young children, I have to say that even the most "stereotypical" of little girls benefit from playing outdoors. None of the girls in my troop ever complained about getting dirty on our camping trips. Occasionally complaining about being tired sure, but it's not like young boys don't do that too. One of the little girls I took care of (working at a family daycare) was a bit of a diva and a girly girl, but even she was perfectly content to play outdoors now and then and never threw a fit about getting dirty. If they're used to camping and playing outside, no kid gets upset about being dirty unless they're explicitly taught to. That's why camping and hiking is so good for kids of all genders. No parent who raises a girl to be upset by dirt is going to let their child in scouts anyways.

I'm particularly incensed by the frequent suggestion in this thread that young girls are not capable of doing the same activities as young boys. There are indeed gender differences, biologically speaking, but it's an average difference which means there are women and men on either extreme of the distribution who's abilities surpass the average of the other gender. Plus, those differences emerge in teenage years with the increased production of hormones, which is not the age group that's going to be affected by this change. Saying that there is a difference in ability in children is inaccurate and a flawed argument. The existing differences at a young age arise from children's experience or lack thereof. If both genders do the same activities when they are young, you won't see those differences arising until they are teenagers.

Overall, I'd say that people are making this a bigger deal than it is. Nowhere have the boy scouts stated that they're going to force all troops to be co-ed. If they're planning on following the existing policies of their founding organization, they'll allow it to be an option, but also allow same sex troops to be an option. So those of you who are worried that there won't be any all boy troops anymore can be reassured by that.
 
Let the boys have their safe space, and let the girls have theirs. There's plenty of opportunity for co-ed education and collaboration.
 
Just combine the boy and girl scouts. It's not like keeping them separated has done anything to reduce scandals and combining them would solve a lot of problems.
 
Sano Sauro said:
First, there is no way to measure how the scandals have been reduced without a control point. The control point would be the number of scandals that have occurred with the two apart. There has been no test of this with the two organizations in America as a whole, so there is no alternative control point. Therefore, it's possible, but not a surety.
Second, the process is actually a really big "if." For reasons demonstrated throughout the responses. Please reread OP and then review the responses to get a more informed opinion! ^u^
Click to expand...
Just because other people replied doesn't mean they were "informed." If the scouting experience is the same, then what's the difference? If they're different, then why should girl and boys (or other) be treated differently? Gender is a social construct and I don't think it's healthy to act as if certain genders get certain tasks.
 
Right, so you're admitting that boy scouts and girl scouts don't get equal benefits. Then you're saying we shouldn't mix them because sex. Would you say the same for a gay scout? Because you've just painted yourself into a corner.
 
"That is one of many reasons we should not mix them."
No, that's why you're saying we don't need to mix them.

"A serious membership drop occurred just after the implementation of gays into the organization. It's still recovering. How do you think both will fare if their very basis for existing is shaken and they're combined?"
And yet children are sent to coed sleepaway camps with no problem. If the scouts are so misanthropic that not being able to discriminate makes them break up, then good riddance. The homophobia was absurd, and you just pointed out why they deserve no credit.
 
"Should girls be allowed to join the boy scouts"

This is a real question that is being asked by a real person.

I'm not angry, just disappointed.
 
RIPSaidCone said:
"Should girls be allowed to join the boy scouts"

This is a real question that is being asked by a real person.

I'm not angry, just disappointed.
Click to expand...
I didn't ask the question; I just restated it and then asked everyone's thoughts on it.
My thoughts are, as an Eagle Scout, summed up as follows:
 
Sano Sauro said:
The Boy Scouts was created for boys to be boys without them having to worry about how to act for females, and is built around the male thought process. It is a boy-led organization that engages high adventure activities that most females weren't interested in during its founding and many still aren't today. It allows them to learn the skills that they are most likely to apply in their life.
The very spirit and purpose of Boy Scouts is centered around it being a boy-only organization.
The Girl Scouts was created for girls to be girls without them having to worry about how to act around males, and is built around the female thought process. It is a leader-led organization that engages in less high-adventure and more in art and expressing yourself. It never even considered males.
Now, for boys wanting art and expressing themselves, their are merit badges available to them. And for girls wanting high-adventure, they can join Venture Scouts at age 14. But of course, they are generally in the minority. So neither side is losing out on their experience, and both sides are catering to the majority of their members.
Combining the two will not lead to membership drop because the boys are sexist and hate girls. The membership drop will be because the future of the organization will be uncertain, the fear of what I already stated to you, the compromising things that will be taught, the millions of dollars that will have to be raised in a very short amount of time, the traditions of the two organizations will have been ruined or removed, and, most important, the very spirit and center of each organization will have crumbled. People leaving because they are straight-up sexist will be in the very small minority.
Click to expand...

I feel like you're misrepresenting why the Girl Scouts was founded, as well as why girls were not originally admitted into boy scouts.

The Boy Scouts was founded by Lord Baden-Powell, who expanded scouting to younger ages after working to promote scouting and outdoors activities to the Boys' Brigade (a Christian youth organization he was involved with) as well as similar boys' organizations. So you are partially right that the organization was founded to promote skills and values in boys, not taking into account girls at all. Though that said, it wasn't explicitly with the intent of letting boys be away from girls (there were already many instances where genders were already separated at the time, so it would be strange if that were the reason).

The first rally for all Scouts was held in 1909, and many girls attended as well who called themselves girl scouts (note: this was before the founding of girl guides or girl scouts since the Girl Guides was founded in 1910 by Agnes Baden-Powell and the Girl Scouts was founded in America in 1912). Lord Baden-Powell had no idea how many girls were interested in scouting. After his retirement he traveled the world, promoting both his Boy Scout organization and his sister's Girl Guiding organization.

[Source]

The Boy Scouts of America was founded in 1910, based upon the scouting association founded by Lord Baden-Powell. It had nothing to do with creating a haven for boys to get away from girls, the intent was to promote outdoor activities and scouting relating activities to boys around the world. It is true that his reaction to girls showing up to the rally was that his organization was "only for boys" but his experience at that rally led him to think about it and it was only a year later with the influence of his sister that girls were allowed to join under a separate name. In 1991, the boy scouts expanded their policy of venturing being coed to apply to the rest of their program. This was optional at first, but recently became compulsory in 2007, and girls now make up 25% of the Scouting Association. Girl Guides does not, as far as I'm aware, let in boys, but that may change in the future as well.

With all that said, I want to address the idea that Girl Scouts is "built around the female thought process". It is, and always has been, a feminist organization at its core. Girl Scouts was founded in 1912 in America by Juliette Gordon Low, after meeting with Baden-Powell in 1911. Her goal was for American girls to be brought out of the home, into the communities and out into the woods to better develop self-reliance and resourcefulness. It wasn't designed to be a soft, arts and craftsy based group. It was designed to get girls out learning leadership skills and doing all the same things as the boy scouts.

It is true that the boy scouts go on more camping and hiking trips than most girl scout troops in America. The reason for this is not because girls do not want to go, but rather because GSA troops are not sponsored by the church, and therefore do not have the same funds and cannot store all their equipment in the church basement like my brother's troop was able to do. As a matter of fact, girl scout camps are a highly popular summer activity. My personal experience has been that everyone in my girl scout troop, from the most adventurous to the most 'girly' of girls, enjoyed camping and getting to explore the woods with their friends. Everyone was excited to learn about plants and animals and wilderness skills. Kids learn to love pretty much anything you can get them excited about doing, and it isn't as hard to motivate little girls to get out into the woods and adventure as some of the people here have suggested. I can only assume that those who say such things are either not very experienced with looking after little girls or are prone to making assumptions about children based on their gender.

If a major problem people are predicting is that girls and boys do not like each other, then the children will likely prefer to stay is gender specific troops anyways. However, I do not believe that this 'hatred' is that wide spread. Besides, if it is, it is actually a bad thing to try to keep them separate. The best solution to reducing sexism and discomfort is to bring both genders together so that they can better learn about each other and work together. The most effective way of getting two groups of people to forget their perceived differences is to have them work together.


I learned quite a bit about the history of Girl Scouts of America while I was involved in the organization, but most of the specific dates are obtained from google/Wikipedia. I've actually learned a lot through this discussion and the research I did to make sure I had my facts straight. For instance, I did not know that there was already co-ed scouting for all ages in the Scouting Association (the original organization that Boy Scouts of America was derived from). I have not yet found any major scandals which happened in the 10 years that this has been the case, and at worst it just seems to be parents complaining because of reasons similar to those voiced in this thread (which I already consider to be misinformed and based on outdated stereotypes). If someone knows of any such scandals, please let me know about them, since as of right now I consider all of the arguments to be either based upon personal preferences or not supported by actual evidence (especially the claims that girls are predisposed to not wanting to do high adventure stuff, since what I have learned about development is that preferences are typically reinforced or discouraged through upbringing, rather than an inherent preference for a certain color/toy/activity).
 
Sano Sauro said:
I didn't ask the question; I just restated it and then asked everyone's thoughts on it.
My thoughts are, as an Eagle Scout, summed up as follows:
Click to expand...

...gender is a social construct. Your talk about "female though processes" is just sexist BS popularized by America's patriarchal culture. You're claiming that forcing gender norms on children, telling them "this is how boys act, this is how girls act" is a good thing. That's the same unscientific, sexist crap Dalmore put out, and it's been repeatedly pointed out why that's wrong. The Actual Science of James Damore’s Google Memo The Actual Science of James Damore’s Google Memo
As for the religious aspect: America is a secular nation based on secular values (Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796). If the scouts want to continue being relevant to the modern day, then they should stop using religion to justify bigotry. I'm not badmouthing Christianity, I'm pointing out that religious bigotry is still bigotry and should not be tolerated. Your freedom is getting in the way of my freedom!

ApfelSeine ApfelSeine
Agreed.
 
dwbi. i still stand by what i said but dwbi
muh wrongthink ain't allowed
 
Last edited:
e d e n said:
no. why? they have the Girl Scouts, if they want to learn more survival based techniques, they should work to change their own scout/troop instead of taking something else. oh wait... work.
Click to expand...
Please try reading what's been written. What you've said has already been take apart.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)

Similar threads

Bill Nye The Octopi
Other Do you ever get a song stuck in your head?
Replies
6
Views
88
ZyncredibleHulk
ZyncredibleHulk
cheeseburger90210
News Happy today; happy day! What is the best birthday gift you have ever got?
Replies
2
Views
145
Bill Nye The Octopi
Bill Nye The Octopi
Nokumi
Journal A rant about the rpnation break down that lasted 3 days.
Replies
6
Views
72
Nokumi
Nokumi
EldrithcAlienGutz69
Other wut wuld u do if Zura (the OC on my pfp) were 2 appear in front of u, wanting 2 cuddle?
Replies
0
Views
13
EldrithcAlienGutz69
EldrithcAlienGutz69
Back
Top