Huxalot
Half man with a body of a shark
Just the fact that America still separates boy and Girl Scouts is fucking ridiculous in my eyes though, I don't see why you can't have just scouts.
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- Thread starter Hall Kervean
- Start date
_Exodus_
King of Transformers
It's not called BOyS scouts if girls were invited
Huxalot
Half man with a body of a shark
"a compromising curriculum that dumbs it down for some boys and ramps it too high for some girls"
What do you mean with that?
Noble Scion
Lover of Lewd and Space
tbh I guess people just want equality. But in America that seems kinda impossible with the vast variance in people.
The whole "why can't girls be apart of the boy scouts", now hear (read?) me out, is less so about scouts itself and simply wanting wanting the same opportunities as everyone else.
At least that's my take on it. I couldn't really care, I live in a completely different continent xP
This is more towards the people just pointing out the name. It's not about Girls getting into boy scouts, it's about equal opportunities.
We have eyes, and are capable of reading too you know. Although causing such a big fuss seems a bit silly over something small.. But then again, small things don't get change.
The whole "why can't girls be apart of the boy scouts", now hear (read?) me out, is less so about scouts itself and simply wanting wanting the same opportunities as everyone else.
At least that's my take on it. I couldn't really care, I live in a completely different continent xP
This is more towards the people just pointing out the name. It's not about Girls getting into boy scouts, it's about equal opportunities.
We have eyes, and are capable of reading too you know. Although causing such a big fuss seems a bit silly over something small.. But then again, small things don't get change.
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Rachael of the Shire
The Witch Among The Shirelings
Maybe not "dumbs it down" so much as removes some of the unique opportunities that come from having a group specifically made for what your gender needs to develop and learn. I think before people call it "sexist" to have a boys only group, they should look around at the women's only groups in America and reevaluate the reasoning behind those groups. If there are girl's only clubs, girl's only online groups, girl's scouts, girl's church groups, and even girl's exercise establishments, why shouldn't there be an institution that is only for boys?
Rachael of the Shire
The Witch Among The Shirelings
And if anyone is going to call me sexist, please do state your reasoning first.
Noble Scion
Lover of Lewd and Space
It's not sexist to have a "this gender only" group. It's just kinda logical, you wouldn't really want a group of guys sleeping with a group of girls, it would be a little weird.
But it's the fact that gender-specific groups in the same fields are given different opportunities is the problem.
Rachael of the Shire
The Witch Among The Shirelings
Then wouldn't it be better to modify the existing programs to allow Girl Scouts to do what Boy Scouts do and vice versa?
Noble Scion
Lover of Lewd and Space
Yep, That would be perfect xP
Lindah
Junior Member
Just modify Girls' Scouts to fit in more of those curriculums. It's also not sexist to have a gender/sex specific grouping. Using the 'darn 'sexist' logic', it could be said that sex separated bathrooms are sexist! And that's stoopid
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
I had a long talk about this very subject with my mother, who has been involved in both girl scouts and boy scouts for many years. I think her view will be useful, since she's involved in administrative aspects and is more or less impartial on the matter.
Unlike girl scouts, which has pretty much always been a feminist organization that focuses all it's attention on the girls themselves, the way that boy scout meetings are set up is inclusive of the whole family. Not all the time of course, they still have a lot that only involves only the boy scouts themselves, but parents are encouraged to get involved, and the little siblings are welcome at many meetings. (I know there's two different kinds of meetings. Not sure if family comes along for one or both?)
Oftentimes, the siblings of the boy scouts get to be involved in the same activities and go to the same events. So given that they're doing the same things, why not sell them the "bling" that goes with it? As my mom said: "the younger siblings are already doing all the same activities. So why can't little Suzy get the achievement bead? And maybe she wants to race a pinewood derby car too because she sees her big brother doing it." In short, girls are already involved, but now they'll be able to sell them stuff. And families can have a one stop shop and drop all their kids off at the same meeting.
Another thing I learned in my conversation with my mother (who found this out via the boy scout forum) is that for a long time, the Mormon church used boy scouts as their youth program. They made it mandatory to join. In recent years though, they're shifting away from being affiliated with boy scouts. This is in large part due to new policies and changes being made (new troops needing to accept gay scouts, gay leaders being allowed to run troops, and the push towards including trans boys are all contributions to that shift). That's not an insignificant amount of members they're going to lose out on. It's not like the Mormons are banning boys from joining, but they are setting up their own separate youth program for boys like they already have for girls. It's no longer guaranteed that boyscouts have that population, so they're making the logical step of expanding to include girls, who are already tangentially involved anyways.
All that said, my mom believes that there's an age where girls aren't comfortable doing stuff around boys, so she thinks the change will really only be a bigger deal for younger scouts whose parents have to drive them everywhere. I disagree, but I've always hated gender segregation my whole life (I even quit soccer after my first year on an all girls team). I enjoyed the stuff we did in girl scouts, but when I was younger I wanted to be in boy scouts too because they were doing a lot of things I was interested in that I didn't get to do. But I might have been a weird child, maybe boys and girls do want to be separate. If that's the case, then I'm sure the kids themselves will kick up a fuss. I don't think they will though, especially the younger kids. If anything, I think it's better for kids to not be separated by gender. I don't see why there's a need to, but again, that might just be my own personal experiences.
From a business standpoint, if the boyscouts can sell patches and beads and uniforms to girls (who are already involved anyways in many ways), they're going to do it. The only thing that will stop them is if that keeps more people from joining than the number of girls they bring in. I think most people really don't care much one way or the other. Some people are hung up on the "boy" and "girl" labels of scouts, but what matters to the organization is that they continue to grow. If that means including the sisters then so be it.
Unlike girl scouts, which has pretty much always been a feminist organization that focuses all it's attention on the girls themselves, the way that boy scout meetings are set up is inclusive of the whole family. Not all the time of course, they still have a lot that only involves only the boy scouts themselves, but parents are encouraged to get involved, and the little siblings are welcome at many meetings. (I know there's two different kinds of meetings. Not sure if family comes along for one or both?)
Oftentimes, the siblings of the boy scouts get to be involved in the same activities and go to the same events. So given that they're doing the same things, why not sell them the "bling" that goes with it? As my mom said: "the younger siblings are already doing all the same activities. So why can't little Suzy get the achievement bead? And maybe she wants to race a pinewood derby car too because she sees her big brother doing it." In short, girls are already involved, but now they'll be able to sell them stuff. And families can have a one stop shop and drop all their kids off at the same meeting.
Another thing I learned in my conversation with my mother (who found this out via the boy scout forum) is that for a long time, the Mormon church used boy scouts as their youth program. They made it mandatory to join. In recent years though, they're shifting away from being affiliated with boy scouts. This is in large part due to new policies and changes being made (new troops needing to accept gay scouts, gay leaders being allowed to run troops, and the push towards including trans boys are all contributions to that shift). That's not an insignificant amount of members they're going to lose out on. It's not like the Mormons are banning boys from joining, but they are setting up their own separate youth program for boys like they already have for girls. It's no longer guaranteed that boyscouts have that population, so they're making the logical step of expanding to include girls, who are already tangentially involved anyways.
All that said, my mom believes that there's an age where girls aren't comfortable doing stuff around boys, so she thinks the change will really only be a bigger deal for younger scouts whose parents have to drive them everywhere. I disagree, but I've always hated gender segregation my whole life (I even quit soccer after my first year on an all girls team). I enjoyed the stuff we did in girl scouts, but when I was younger I wanted to be in boy scouts too because they were doing a lot of things I was interested in that I didn't get to do. But I might have been a weird child, maybe boys and girls do want to be separate. If that's the case, then I'm sure the kids themselves will kick up a fuss. I don't think they will though, especially the younger kids. If anything, I think it's better for kids to not be separated by gender. I don't see why there's a need to, but again, that might just be my own personal experiences.
From a business standpoint, if the boyscouts can sell patches and beads and uniforms to girls (who are already involved anyways in many ways), they're going to do it. The only thing that will stop them is if that keeps more people from joining than the number of girls they bring in. I think most people really don't care much one way or the other. Some people are hung up on the "boy" and "girl" labels of scouts, but what matters to the organization is that they continue to grow. If that means including the sisters then so be it.
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
Hall Kervean
First off, I'm sorry for throwing around excessively complex words. "Tangentially involved" means not directly involved, but on the sidelines and indirectly involved. I think that this is true for many families with young girls who have children in cub scouts. You may be right that it's cubscouts that involves the little sisters and family, as opposed to the boy scouts, but I'm still considering cub scouts to be part of the boy scouts. In fact, I think that it's cubscouts that they're really looking to get girls involved in, and they probably figure they may as well leave it open for them to continue in the same organization the future.
Besides, at the point where "biological differences" really start to kick in, there's already venturing scouts anyways. So why not look into having coed opportunities at younger ages, where boys and girls are pretty much the same?
Given that what my mom mainly talked about in her discussion with me is cub scout related environments (the family friendly/convinience aspects), I'm going to assume that's where they mostly expect this new policy to apply. That, or they're looking to keep families engaged with the older boys too. To clarify her experience, my mom was involved in cub scouts when my brother was a cub scout, boy scouts when he got older, and now that he's graduated high school she's working as treasurer for the local boy scout group in her area.
There might be regional differences too. I don't think it's reasonable to say that every troop should allow girls in, or even every new troop made in the future like is the case for gay scouts. What is reasonable though, is allowing troops the option if they want to go in that direction. There's no harm in it, and I don't think there's that many policy changes that would need to be made. At least not the ones I'm aware of.
I did not mean to imply that the opinion of the boys themselves shouldn't matter. If anything, I was saying the opposite. More than what the adults want to see, it should be discussed by the boys themselves. I don't think that there would be a much of an opposition, particularly at a young age, except where it's influenced by the parents. That's why I said I don't expect them to kick up a fuss about it much. At the very least, all the guys I knew in boy scouts had no problem with befriending and doing stuff with girls. It likely differs from troop to troop though, since that's only my experience.
Dalamus Ulom
Childe of Malkav
Personally, this whole thing is silly. Boy Scouts is Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts is Girl Scouts. I'm fine with homosexuals and trans kids joining, as that's personally not really a problem unless the parents make it a problem. But if you're a girl and want to join the boy scouts, then you're just being silly. Why not try to make changes in the organization? Go petition for the girl scouts to add more science stuff, to add more outdoor stuff, to add more "dirt and grime" kinds of activities, and allow the kids to choose what they want. If one girl wants to sit out the flag foorball, she can. If one girl isn't really interested in sewing, then that shouldn't be a problem.
And hell, you can apply that same idea to the Boy Scouts. If a boy wants to learn to sew, I think he should be allowed to. If one boy doesn't want to go around climbing rocks, he should be able to sit that activity out and do what he wants. All in all, I think the two organizations should stay seperated, but be allowed to do what the kids want, because that's what it's REALLY about.
And if even after all those changes, a girl wants to join the Boy Scouts anyway, then they're not doing it to get better or more interesting activities, they're doing it to try and make a point.
And hell, you can apply that same idea to the Boy Scouts. If a boy wants to learn to sew, I think he should be allowed to. If one boy doesn't want to go around climbing rocks, he should be able to sit that activity out and do what he wants. All in all, I think the two organizations should stay seperated, but be allowed to do what the kids want, because that's what it's REALLY about.
And if even after all those changes, a girl wants to join the Boy Scouts anyway, then they're not doing it to get better or more interesting activities, they're doing it to try and make a point.
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Hall Kervean
Two Thousand Club
(I'm not responding to most of it because I partially agree with it)
I did not mean to imply that the opinion of the boys themselves shouldn't matter. If anything, I was saying the opposite. More than what the adults want to see, it should be discussed by the boys themselves. I don't think that there would be a much of an opposition, particularly at a young age, except where it's influenced by the parents. That's why I said I don't expect them to kick up a fuss about it much. At the very least, all the guys I knew in boy scouts had no problem with befriending and doing stuff with girls. It likely differs from troop to troop though, since that's only my experience.
This, too, actually violates the spirit of Boy Scouts. There shouldn't be an adult discussing it with boys, it should be boys discussing it with adults. If the boys want there to be women in their organization, then there will be. If the adults want it, then it won't happen until the boys make it happen.
And befriending and doing stuff with girls isn't anything most guys are against... outside of Boy Scouts.
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
That's the crux of the issue I think. The point of boyscouts is supposed to be boy run troops, and teaching leadership and life skills. But in this day and age the people running it are moving away from that and towards parent run activities. On one hand, parents should encourage boys to open themselves up to experiences that they might not otherwise think to try. But on the other hand, a lot of the policies are in place to appease the parents (or changed to appease the parents). The whole organization notoriously discriminates against athiests, even though a lot of young boys don't know what an athiest is, or care what their fellow scout's beliefs are. There's a happy medium, and I think it'll be harder to reach that if there's too many politics involved where the organization tries to appease the parents.
The official statement given by the boy scouts is they want to encourage family engagement. That likely applies mostly to cub scouts, but overall suggests a trend in the most recent generation of families. Most households are dual earner now, and it's hard to manage schedules, so it's not unreasonable to make room for the girls, who in many cases are already coming.
I think that cub scouts should let girls get badges for the activities and participate along with the rest of the family. For boy scouts, it should be determined troop by troop. Though to be entirely honest, we don't have much info on what the policies are likely to be. It may turn out that it's only applicable for cubscouts anyways. Or it may turn out that they'll be opening up the option of coed troops. It's possible that they'll force all troops to accept girls, but that's very very unlikely. For me, I think that at the age where cub scouts changes to boy scouts, they're old enough to decide whether they want to be in an integrated troop or one with only boys in it. So if they do open up boy scouts to girls, it should be a troops decision to opt in or out.
Pyro
Flamethrower of Hate
If a girl can enter the boys scout ranks, without identifying as anything other than a girl, then this should be equal to a boy entering the Girl Scouts ranks, without identifying as anything other then a boy. But I've never been in Boys Scouts so I wouldn't know, but this seems more like common sense and knowledge.
SlytherClaw
Try hard evil genius
I agree with this, sort of. IF they allowed girls into boy scouts then they need to allow the opposite. However at that point there isn't really a need for separate gender groups. So I don't think that should happen.
INSTEAD
I think that boy scouts and girl scouts should be separate gender based but be trans inclusive. As well as I think it should be standard for both groups to learn both masculine and feminine type things.
INSTEAD
I think that boy scouts and girl scouts should be separate gender based but be trans inclusive. As well as I think it should be standard for both groups to learn both masculine and feminine type things.
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
From my experience and what I've learned, the majority of discomfort that arises from having to be in the same group as girls (and vice versa) is learned from parents, societal pressures and unfounded paranoia. As such, I'd see it as healthy if guys and girls could be given the opportunity to form friendships and bond over scouting activities. What would be nice is to see the boy scout and the girl scout organizations collaborating to create a coed program for all ages. That's what my own dream would be, not necessarily insisting that the status quo be changed. It seems ridiculous to me that so many things are gendered that don't have to be. What counts as "masculine" and "feminine" varies from culture to culture. Averages exist, but they're not as significant as people make them out to be, and there's always a significant number of people who are outliers on a normal distribution. Differences in averages are only a big deal because adults try to steer children to conform to ideas like "boys and girls can't be friends" or thinking that only one gender can enjoy/engage in/excel at a specific activity.
I'll concede that a lot of children don't feel comfortable around the opposite gender, but that makes it all the more important that they spend time together and get to see each other as people. Sorry if this is getting ranty, but the societal ideas of boys and girls not being able to work together and do all the same things is frustrating. Coed groups are proof enough that they're perfectly capable of being on the same team and having fun together. Personally, I don't care if there are separate groups by gender. But I also think that it's not going to negatively impact boys at all to have to have girls involved and vice versa. If anything, I think it would improve children's ability to empathize with the opposite gender and learn how to work alongside them.
No one can name a single thing to me that I would believe both genders are not both interested in or capable of doing. Others may disagree, and one might have a completely different view of what boy scouts are than I do (be it from personal experience or regional differences in how things are run). But in the end, it's not going to be up to any of us what happens. Besides, it's not reasonable to assume everything will crumble simply because we break down the walls between boys and girls and let them start stepping outside the box they're always put in. Just because something has always been done one way will mean it's going to be a catastrophy if it changes. The suggested change is in response to requests, and none of us can say for sure what the majority of the members of BSA really want.
I'll concede that a lot of children don't feel comfortable around the opposite gender, but that makes it all the more important that they spend time together and get to see each other as people. Sorry if this is getting ranty, but the societal ideas of boys and girls not being able to work together and do all the same things is frustrating. Coed groups are proof enough that they're perfectly capable of being on the same team and having fun together. Personally, I don't care if there are separate groups by gender. But I also think that it's not going to negatively impact boys at all to have to have girls involved and vice versa. If anything, I think it would improve children's ability to empathize with the opposite gender and learn how to work alongside them.
No one can name a single thing to me that I would believe both genders are not both interested in or capable of doing. Others may disagree, and one might have a completely different view of what boy scouts are than I do (be it from personal experience or regional differences in how things are run). But in the end, it's not going to be up to any of us what happens. Besides, it's not reasonable to assume everything will crumble simply because we break down the walls between boys and girls and let them start stepping outside the box they're always put in. Just because something has always been done one way will mean it's going to be a catastrophy if it changes. The suggested change is in response to requests, and none of us can say for sure what the majority of the members of BSA really want.
Maki
Ten Thousand Club
I mean they have the venture scouts which is literally Boy Scouts but girls are allowed.
Pyro
Flamethrower of Hate
Doesn't like Canada have the Cub Scouts or something, seems like something those igloo people would make.
Maki
Ten Thousand Club
America has that too
Pyro
Flamethrower of Hate
Damn, I gusss country limited Scouts will never become a thing, me and some guy in the Netherlands will have to deal with that.
But last I remember, Cub scouts are like available to both genders so I don't know why the womens wouldn't just join that group? Is it a fear of determination? To show those dirty white males that in fact.. white females can do it as well? As far as I know, it's a weird cycle and shit gets weirder the farther we go.
Maki
Ten Thousand Club
Cub scouts is just pretty much just Boy Scouts for elementary school kids. And girls aren't allowed in it as far as I'm concerned. I know I wasn't allowed in back when I was that age and I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed now.
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
Pyro
Cubscouts in America are the elementary school program of boyscouts. Girls aren't technically allowed to join, but many of them still participate in the meetings because cubscouts already encourages family involvement. I think this is the part of boy scouts that BSA intends to make gender inclusive, at least initially, particularly considering they already have a gender inclusive branch foot teenagers called venturing scouts (which many girls are involved in). They haven't said much on the subject, so it's hard to say if they want to enact this for younger kids, or the whole organization.
I took some time to look more into this topic. In England, where boy scouts were originally founded, the organization has shifted to be gender inclusive in recent years. It's known as the scout association. It could be that the American based version is starting to follow in the footsteps of the UK. This inclusive program works fine for the scout association, so I see no reason for why it won't work in America.
AbsurdNerd
The Cupcake Queen
I think that's really stupid, but if we're talking about transgender girls, I'm not sure. Depending on what state you're in, I'd say we're becoming more accepting of that sort of thing, but I don't know how people would react to a transgender Boy Scout. It seems like this would be an easy answer, but I can't really think of a scenario and play this out. It could literally go any way.
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