Other Why? Just why?

[PhoenixMire]

Noragami is such a good anime! And yeah, Yato can be a bit of a creep sometimes, although I think it's mostly played for the laughs for some reason. I find 'Shima' from Blue Exorcist to be a much more annoying creep, though.
Also, Cells at Work is so good and wholesome . The anime designs are great.
View attachment 541056
Also, if you want some like your darker stuff (I loved The Promised Neverland), go for:
Jigokuraku it's a lot like it and I'm sure you'll love it. It's even free on mangaplus.

Yato has a reason for being creepy; without spoiling anything, his past is VERY screwed up and he was never able to grow normally and learn what's okay and what isn't. It isn't really his fault.
Hiyori is definitely teaching him what not to do lol : P
And yes Cells at Work is just so good!

 

[Darkmaster006]

Yato has a reason for being creepy; without spoiling anything, his past is VERY screwed up and he was never able to grow normally and learn what's okay and what isn't. It isn't really his fault.
Hiyori is definitely teaching him what not to do lol : P
And yes Cells at Work is just so good!

Ah, I haven't caught up with the manga, but I do remember something of the sort, it's very clear that he yearns for attention, too, and doesn't know how to get it.
I just saw you mentioned BNHA, let's not even talk about Mineta, hope he was cropped out of the picture, why does he get so much screentime? Apart from that, it has become pretty bad, imo. I loved Deku in Season 1, he was a refreshing shonen lead with a cool personality. Season 2 was the best Season. But now it has become very repetitive and boring, like, everyone just subconsciously looks up to Deku and his 'amazing deductions' or something and it's always him the inspiration and it's quite annoying to be honest. I feel like it should just end already. Too many charas and none get development (the girls get less than zero, and Uraraka has been reduced to a Deku cheering girl, saddening tbh) except Deku and Kacchan and maybe Todoroki. I feel like it's been hyped up a lot but there are shonen manga way better. Maybe I'm just tired of classic shonen too anyways hah. But at least it has some cool characters.

 

[AnimeGenork]

Although you seem to be talking about actual abuse (as in the harming of another individual), I do agree with much of what you all say.

Though I'm more concerned about the yandere idea present in a lot of anime... especially, for example, something like Juvia and Gray. I don't understand why a chick who is clearly not allowing Gray to have free will in who he likes isn't healthy--the guy should get to choose whoever the hell he likes, but Juvia freaks out every time another girl comes near him? I'm honestly confused why people think that's a healthy relationship--neither party is completely in the right, sure, since Gray was kinda a jerk to her in the beginning (but I don't blame him). It's unfair to the other party, and I want to say that that type of relationship could justifiably be a category of abuse in and of itself.

As for the "mock abuse" with the pressing the girl up against the wall... :/ I say, on that end, it depends on the delivery. If the girl doesn't like the situation, that's not okay. If, say, she wants something like that to happen (the kissing, that is), it's slightly more okay. Still not, but a little bit better. That's why I go for the wholesome romance. None of the intense, really-over-glorified harem or SAO stuff. [On that note, the girls who like Kirito can be explained due to him saving their lives and thus causing their subsequent crushes. But I agree that it's completely and utterly annoying. 'Tis why I don't like SAO.]

All I can say is, this world is full of perverts and weirdoes, and that is really the only way I can excuse half the stuff you all are talking about.

Doesn't mean it's alright... but at least there's some explanation for ya.

 

[PhoenixMire]

Ah, I haven't caught up with the manga, but I do remember something of the sort, it's very clear that he yearns for attention, too, and doesn't know how to get it.
I just saw you mentioned BNHA, let's not even talk about Mineta, hope he was cropped out of the picture, why does he get so much screentime? Apart from that, it has become pretty bad, imo. I loved Deku in Season 1, he was a refreshing shonen lead with a cool personality. Season 2 was the best Season. But now it has become very repetitive and boring, like, everyone just subconsciously looks up to Deku and his 'amazing deductions' or something and it's always him the inspiration and it's quite annoying to be honest. I feel like it should just end already. Too many charas and none get development (the girls get less than zero, and Uraraka has been reduced to a Deku cheering girl, saddening tbh) except Deku and Kacchan and maybe Todoroki. I feel like it's been hyped up a lot but there are shonen manga way better. Maybe I'm just tired of classic shonen too anyways hah. But at least it has some cool characters.

Kind of spoilers for the Noragami manga, will try not go too in depth though, so you won't be particularly "spoiled" if you do decide to read the manga.

Spoiler

Yato's "dad" has been nothing but emotionally manipulative and abusive. Poor Yato was raised to think that some very bad things are totally okay, and was never taught what's acceptable to do and what isn't. Considering his situation, it's a freakin' miracle he even broke away from his "dad" in the first place and is trying his best to be independent (and that he actually has some basic morals despite his childhood!). I feel really sorry for him and hope he can get a happy ending :c

As for My Hero Academia... well, yeah, Mineta's awful and the series would be far better without him. However, I feel like he is kind of a parody on the 'pervert' trope; it's kinda funny to see the girls' reactions to him. With that said, I reeeaaally wish someone in authority (like Aizawa) would at least threaten to suspend him for being so unbearable...
As for your other complaints, we'll agree to disagree. I wouldn't say they look up to Izuku for his "genius" deductions, more for his persistent and kind spirit.

I'm caught up on the manga right now and I don't mind season 3. I thought it was just fine. I like the characters and don't really see anything wrong with them.
I will say, however, that in some parts of the manga that haven't been animated yet, I grew a little tired of Izuku and felt like he was kind of sticking to the "shounen protagonist tropes" instead of breaking them, like he'd been doing earlier. I got a little bothered for a bit, but the other characters have some pretty interesting stuff happen to them, and man, am I so interested in the villains. I'd honestly love a manga entirely dedicated to them. I want them to have so much more screentime. :')

Lol I can understand being tired of "classic shounen". I guess I'm not sick of it yet because I highly prefer action and adventure to romance and shoujo tropes. I just... can't stand shoujo for some reason.

 

[Darkmaster006]

Kind of spoilers for the Noragami manga, will try not go too in depth though, so you won't be particularly "spoiled" if you do decide to read the manga.

Spoiler

Yato's "dad" has been nothing but emotionally manipulative and abusive. Poor Yato was raised to think that some very bad things are totally okay, and was never taught what's acceptable to do and what isn't. Considering his situation, it's a freakin' miracle he even broke away from his "dad" in the first place and is trying his best to be independent (and that he actually has some basic morals despite his childhood!). I feel really sorry for him and hope he can get a happy ending :c

As for My Hero Academia... well, yeah, Mineta's awful and the series would be far better without him. However, I feel like he is kind of a parody on the 'pervert' trope; it's kinda funny to see the girls' reactions to him. With that said, I reeeaaally wish someone in authority (like Aizawa) would at least threaten to suspend him for being so unbearable...
As for your other complaints, we'll agree to disagree. I wouldn't say they look up to Izuku for his "genius" deductions, more for his persistent and kind spirit.

I'm caught up on the manga right now and I don't mind season 3. I thought it was just fine. I like the characters and don't really see anything wrong with them.
I will say, however, that in some parts of the manga that haven't been animated yet, I grew a little tired of Izuku and felt like he was kind of sticking to the "shounen protagonist tropes" instead of breaking them, like he'd been doing earlier. I got a little bothered for a bit, but the other characters have some pretty interesting stuff happen to them, and man, am I so interested in the villains. I'd honestly love a manga entirely dedicated to them. I want them to have so much more screentime. :')

Lol I can understand being tired of "classic shounen". I guess I'm not sick of it yet because I highly prefer action and adventure to romance and shoujo tropes. I just... can't stand shoujo for some reason.

I don't see how he's a parody, he gets faaaar too much screen time it's cringing. All that time could be spent on developing actual cool characters, to be honest.
Ah, yeah, that's what I was trying to say. It's still quite annoying to me. Some stuff just seems stupid, thought, like when he was the only one that looked back when Big-three-guy attacked them from the back? We'll have to agree to disagree, indeed. I do like the villains quite a lot, though. Stain was by far the best part of the series, but purple-portal-guy and Shigaraki are really cool. From the spoilers I've seen from the manga, it seems they're doing a Class B x Class A fight or something to decide if Shinso is gonna join the hero thing? Is the actual plot moving along?
As I've been saying, yeah, Shoujo is bad, and its tropes are annoying. Honestly I'm very picky with what I read and watch so I don't really stay in a genre. I think I'll drop BNHA tbh, got me hyped at first and I loved it but now I feel like it has let me down tbh. Anyways, I have a feeling you'll like Jigokuraku, especially if you loved TPN, so give it a go if you want!

 

[Idea]

Ok, here we go...

First of all, you have to consider the fact that people don't necessarily view the things described as abusive relationships. Now, this isn't to say that they aren't necessarily, but I do think it is important to realize that the "romantization of X" only really happens if it is written or intended that way, which most of the times, it isn't. Don't get me wrong, if you're uncomfortable with something I perfectly understand and accept that, it's your right to avoid things you don't feel comfortable with. That said however, it is also important to avoid misclassifying what other people are actually doing.

Using/actively manipulating someone aside, abuse requires that at least one of the members of the romantic pair is being threatened or harmed unwillingly. And romantization requires that this be portrayed as a good thing.

Now, how people can come to the idea that a supposedly abusive relationship can not be abusive comes in two main forms:

1. They be approaching something attempting to creative romantic gestures or characters who, because they are characters, have exagerated flaws and while this happens to slip into what could be considered abuse, they don't realize it because that was never the point nor something they are thinking about.

2. Something which YOU consider abuse, but which others might not.

Now even with things people might recognize as abusive, one more reason is that people may just require a degree of "abuse" to reach a determined plot or character dynamic. If a character wouldn't normally be willing to do something, then it may be required that they are forced into it for the plot to exist at all. In this case, abuse is again not really being romantized, just being used for a narrative means to an end.

So far, these are all examples which don't romantize abuse. Ones because they on coincidentally, if at all, portray abuse, and the other which recognizes it as a bad thing but has it as a necessary component of the plot or characters. In neither case is there romantization.

However, one case where I DO find there is romantization of abuse, is in BDSM type relationships. "Submissive/dominant" pairings and the like. Now, these aren't necessarily abusive on their own, but media representation does effectively lead to a misunderstanding of some of the core ideas behind that kind of relationship, mainly the ones where it exist because both parties willingly consent to and enjoy having those roles. In this one there is romantization of abuse, coming from a misunderstanding of what the other thing is like, though it could also be argued here abuse isn't quite what they truly meant to portray, though for this one I'd say that is splitting waters, because they do see it as abuse.

There are, of course, outliers, who actually do do it to romanticize abuse, and I would guess those probably have a fetish for it, OR that they have had traumatic experiences with it in the past and want an RP to be their outlet.




With all of this said, can we stop the dumb "video games cause violence" type arguments? Media does not brainwash you, unless you are willing to be brainwashed or completely unaware of it's fictional nature. Yes, it can have influence over you, but can we please stop pretending like something happening on a screen makes people do it in real life? Or if we can't, can we at least stop judging stuff based on surface level elements and less than barebones understanding of it?

 

[PhoenixMire]

I don't see how he's a parody, he gets faaaar too much screen time it's cringing. All that time could be spent on developing actual cool characters, to be honest.
Ah, yeah, that's what I was trying to say. It's still quite annoying to me. Some stuff just seems stupid, thought, like when he was the only one that looked back when Big-three-guy attacked them from the back? We'll have to agree to disagree, indeed. I do like the villains quite a lot, though. Stain was by far the best part of the series, but purple-portal-guy and Shigaraki are really cool. From the spoilers I've seen from the manga, it seems they're doing a Class B x Class A fight or something to decide if Shinso is gonna join the hero thing? Is the actual plot moving along?
As I've been saying, yeah, Shoujo is bad, and its tropes are annoying. Honestly I'm very picky with what I read and watch so I don't really stay in a genre. I think I'll drop BNHA tbh, got me hyped at first and I loved it but now I feel like it has let me down tbh. Anyways, I have a feeling you'll like Jigokuraku, especially if you loved TPN, so give it a go if you want!

He's kind of a parody because of the way people react to him and how nobody puts up with him. Also the fact that he's purely perverted with no other personality traits (which makes me loathe him wholly and utterly, but... yeah he's a parody; his perverted traits are so over the top as to be stupid, and that's the point). I just really wish he didn't exist though. I hate him so much.
I just wanted to address a point about Uraraka - I don't feel like she's been "reduced" to anything. She has a crush, which as a fifteen-year-old girl, is incredibly normal. What I'm amazed by is that she managed to push those feelings aside and instead focus on becoming a hero. At her age, a lot of people are incredibly hormonal, and I know for sure that I was a lot more emotionally screwed up than her when I was fifteen. So I think it's very admirable that, despite having a big crush, she's able to push it aside and focus on becoming a hero. Props to her.
I really love Shigaraki and Dabi lol, idk why they're just cool and creepy and I need to know more about them.

Yes, Shinso is involved. But the plot definitely has a lot going on WAY before that.

Maybe I'll have to look up Jigokuraku.

 

[Kaerri]

As for the "mock abuse" with the pressing the girl up against the wall... :

That's why I used the word "mock," although I'm sure there are better ones out there. If someone is being harmed, whether physically, mentally, or emotionally, then I believe it stops being "mock"abuse and starts being the real thing.

With all of this said, can we stop the dumb "video games cause violence" type arguments?

I think what's really being stated here is not that the media/literature is causing the abuse, but helping to normalize it. The more people see something, the more they think it's normal to see it (whether it actually is or not). Perception can be more convincing than reality unless you make the effort to recognize just how much you see is real and how much overblown hype. (Not a new problem, either -- see Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey for an example of someone letting the novels she reads influence what she expects from reality.)

 

[Idea]

I think what's really being stated here is not that the media/literature is causing the abuse, but helping to normalize it. The more people see something, the more they think it's normal to see it (whether it actually is or not). Perception can be more convincing than reality unless you make the effort to recognize just how much you see is real and how much overblown hype. (Not a new problem, either -- see Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey for an example of someone letting the novels she reads influence what she expects from reality.)

Even for that it's not as influencial as people make it out to be. I completely agree perception can be more convincing than reality, but the idea that it can completely override common sense for anything other than outliers- or even that the influence is 1 to 1- is misguided.

I'm sorry if I sound angry or anything. These kinds of arguments aren't entirely unjustified, but they do eaisly get taken too far, and tend to completely ignore when things are being presented but not being portrayed as good things and other context. An especially common context that is ignored is that of comedy.

 

[PhoenixMire]

Even for that it's not as influencial as people make it out to be. I completely agree perception can be more convincing than reality, but the idea that it can completely override common sense for anything other than outliers- or even that the influence is 1 to 1- is misguided.

I'm sorry if I sound angry or anything. These kinds of arguments aren't entirely unjustified, but they do eaisly get taken too far, and tend to completely ignore when things are being presented but not being portrayed as good things and other context. An especially common context that is ignored is that of comedy.

You'd be surprised how many people let fiction leak into their lives. Even intelligent people who know that there's a divide between fiction and reality.

I've noticed so many people, even unconsciously, being slightly influenced by the fictional things they're constantly watching. Although they don't let fiction control them and they certainly know that there's a difference between it and reality, they still tend to subconsciously form some beliefs or mild personality traits based on what they're constantly exposing themselves to and enjoying. People need to be really careful about the fiction they constantly consume - especially for children!

So many parents think to themselves, "it's fiction! It's okay, my kid won't be influenced by it!" And oh, are they wrong. Children are still developing and are so impressionable that it's easy to make them believe or feel a certain way based on what they're seeing when they're very young. For intelligent adults, it's far less of a problem, but for children it's a big one.

 

[Idea]

You'd be surprised how many people let fiction leak into their lives. Even intelligent people who know that there's a divide between fiction and reality.

I've noticed so many people, even unconsciously, being slightly influenced by the fictional things they're constantly watching. Although they don't let fiction control them and they certainly know that there's a difference between it and reality, they still tend to subconsciously form some beliefs or mild personality traits based on what they're constantly exposing themselves to and enjoying. People need to be really careful about the fiction they constantly consume - especially for children!

So many parents think to themselves, "it's fiction! It's okay, my kid won't be influenced by it!" And oh, are they wrong. Children are still developing and are so impressionable that it's easy to make them believe or feel a certain way based on what they're seeing when they're very young. For intelligent adults, it's far less of a problem, but for children it's a big one.

I will concede on the matter of children- specifically preteens and some teens. Those are people who haven't had time to properly form and define the fundamentals of their own conscience and thoughts about the world.

I will also concede there is, as I admitted before, a mild influence. A degree of influence and normalization. That said, being influenced by media does not override your common sense, and a lot of that influence can be somewhat dispelled just by having minimal contact with a real experience. However, even for cases where the influence is real, one needs to realize that context vastly alters the degree and reception of it, both context of what viewer and the context in the narrative. It often is the case, as was in this very thread (I am trying to avoid mentioning who) that instead of that a particular element just needs to be present at all (and sometimes, it just needs to be imagined to be there) and it is called as problematic or worse even, as making the whole show or GENRE problematic.

 

[PhoenixMire]

I will concede on the matter of children- specifically preteens and some teens. Those are people who haven't had time to properly form and define the fundamentals of their own conscience and thoughts about the world.

I will also concede there is, as I admitted before, a mild influence. A degree of influence and normalization. That said, being influenced by media does not override your common sense, and a lot of that influence can be somewhat dispelled just by having minimal contact with a real experience. However, even for cases where the influence is real, one needs to realize that context vastly alters the degree and reception of it, both context of what viewer and the context in the narrative. It often is the case, as was in this very thread (I am trying to avoid mentioning who) that instead of that a particular element just needs to be present at all (and sometimes, it just needs to be imagined to be there) and it is called as problematic or worse even, as making the whole show or GENRE problematic.

I definitely agree, but I think the problem is that exposing these kinds of things to very young people is a big issue. A lot of adults have the common sense to realize that fiction is fiction and should be kept as such.

However... since borderline abusive or just flat out creepy behavior is so normalized in a lot of media, it does make some people think that's just the way it is. There are so many people out there in horrendously controlling relationships. They don't like feeling controlled all the time, but they think it's normal. Where do they get the idea that it's normal? I dunno. Other people? The media? It's different for each individual, so I can't say for sure.
I guess I'm just saying that I wish healthy relationships could be portrayed more often in media.

 

[Idea]

I definitely agree, but I think the problem is that exposing these kinds of things to very young people is a big issue. A lot of adults have the common sense to realize that fiction is fiction and should be kept as such.

Sure, totally. Talking about problematic things in general, and specifically abusive relationships, its not even a practice I personally enjoy or feel should be promoted at all. I agree its a problem (though I also think people should be allowed to live their fantasies so long as they remain as such), the problem I was mentioning though is the delusional idea that primarily or entirely because it was portrayed in media, and lumping in all media remotely associated with something you think is problematic and calling it problematic or bad because of it.

However... since borderline abusive or just flat out creepy behavior is so normalized in a lot of media, it does make some people think that's just the way it is. There are so many people out there in horrendously controlling relationships. They don't like feeling controlled all the time, but they think it's normal. Where do they get the idea that it's normal? I dunno. Other people? The media? It's different for each individual, so I can't say for sure.

"Borderline abusive" is an idea which I do have a bit of a bone to pick with, and something which I mentioned before. If something is abusive, then it is abusive. If something is only abusive because you ascribe the idea that it is abusive to it, then it's only abusive if it pertains to you.

Let me give an example. Let's say, some stranger comes and hugs you out in public. For most of us, I think you'll agree, this would be an uncomfortable experience which could be considered if nothing else, an invasion of one's private space. However, there are people out there who will happily take the hug. Is it an invasion if someone is ok with it?

In another example, there is a field of BDSM which involves "masters" and "slaves". Now, obviously, real slavery is a repulsive and wrong practice which should never be promoted. However, is it still abusive when the person being treated as a slave is taking that because they enjoy it and wanted it?

A lot of 80s movies portray very creepy moves and decisions on what could be considered very problematic moves nowadays. But if the characters, all of them, see it as romantic is it abuse? I would argue only if they are being actively manipulated into it.



However, lets ignore the fact of how many times this idea that the problematic thing even is there or is being romantisized, and suppose that it always is for the sake of argument. Even then, there are obvious examples showing very well that media has far less impact than people seem to ascribe to it.

For instance, take harem anime and the idea of "girls falling in love with the guy for little to no reason", or shoujo anime's actual creepy controlling relationships- in both of these cases, I'm willing to put money on nearly none of the watchers having any illusions that these are FANTASIES. In fact, that's probably one of the reasons they tend to watch these- that they want to experience it knowing it could never happen in real life. The guy that actually thinks girls will fall in love with them on sight isn't in a room watching harems, they are out in the bars having the drinks and trying to play girls or whatever.


The person you described that stays in a controlling relationship is probably a very shy person, or very anxious. Their real problem is probably that they fear the confrontation and the loss of the relationship. Now THERE is a real problem which can be adressed and solved, and people will be better off not worse off for it. "Normalization" is a non-issue, because even if it can be said to happen, it is neither as straightfoward nor as significant as people make it out to be, yet it gets so much attention that it deflects attention from real problems that could be adressed to help people.



Sorry about the rant there.

 

[PhoenixMire]

Sure, totally. Talking about problematic things in general, and specifically abusive relationships, its not even a practice I personally enjoy or feel should be promoted at all. I agree its a problem (though I also think people should be allowed to live their fantasies so long as they remain as such), the problem I was mentioning though is the delusional idea that primarily or entirely because it was portrayed in media, and lumping in all media remotely associated with something you think is problematic and calling it problematic or bad because of it.


"Borderline abusive" is an idea which I do have a bit of a bone to pick with, and something which I mentioned before. If something is abusive, then it is abusive. If something is only abusive because you ascribe the idea that it is abusive to it, then it's only abusive if it pertains to you.

Let me give an example. Let's say, some stranger comes and hugs you out in public. For most of us, I think you'll agree, this would be an uncomfortable experience which could be considered if nothing else, an invasion of one's private space. However, there are people out there who will happily take the hug. Is it an invasion if someone is ok with it?

In another example, there is a field of BDSM which involves "masters" and "slaves". Now, obviously, real slavery is a repulsive and wrong practice which should never be promoted. However, is it still abusive when the person being treated as a slave is taking that because they enjoy it and wanted it?

A lot of 80s movies portray very creepy moves and decisions on what could be considered very problematic moves nowadays. But if the characters, all of them, see it as romantic is it abuse? I would argue only if they are being actively manipulated into it.



However, lets ignore the fact of how many times this idea that the problematic thing even is there or is being romantisized, and suppose that it always is for the sake of argument. Even then, there are obvious examples showing very well that media has far less impact than people seem to ascribe to it.

For instance, take harem anime and the idea of "girls falling in love with the guy for little to no reason", or shoujo anime's actual creepy controlling relationships- in both of these cases, I'm willing to put money on nearly none of the watchers having any illusions that these are FANTASIES. In fact, that's probably one of the reasons they tend to watch these- that they want to experience it knowing it could never happen in real life. The guy that actually thinks girls will fall in love with them on sight isn't in a room watching harems, they are out in the bars having the drinks and trying to play girls or whatever.


The person you described that stays in a controlling relationship is probably a very shy person, or very anxious. Their real problem is probably that they fear the confrontation and the loss of the relationship. Now THERE is a real problem which can be adressed and solved, and people will be better off not worse off for it. "Normalization" is a non-issue, because even if it can be said to happen, it is neither as straightfoward nor as significant as people make it out to be, yet it gets so much attention that it deflects attention from real problems that could be adressed to help people.



Sorry about the rant there.

Uhh I deeply apologize in advance but I kinda skimmed your post... I have attention span issues and you write soo much I'm sorry

When I say borderline abusive, it's because some actions are an indicator of a bigger problem. I've seen people who seem nice on the surface but do some weird things that might seem... odd, but can be brushed off. Thus, those actions might be considered borderline. Those types of people who do weird, creepy-ish things and try to make it seem "romantic" are usually hiding much bigger issues deep down.
A lot of people who are perfectly mentally okay end up getting wrapped in these abusive relationships because the abuser makes their significant other feel like they're the problem, and it's their fault for making the abuser upset or act controlling. I've personally met people who have suffered through things like this. They were okay beforehand, but as soon as they entered the relationship, they were very subtly manipulated and controlled until it slowly got worse and kinda broke their mental state. It's sad.

 

[Idea]

When I say borderline abusive, it's because some actions are an indicator of a bigger problem. I've seen people who seem nice on the surface but do some weird things that might seem... odd, but can be brushed off. Thus, those actions might be considered borderline. Those types of people who do weird, creepy-ish things and try to make it seem "romantic" are usually hiding much bigger issues deep down.

Sure. But then you can't say anything that has "borderline abuse" in it is necessarily problematic, because you are assuming those people have deeper issues deep down or that this behavior you see as creepy is even abusive in the first place, something which the people involved (which when talking about characters is often the case) may not see as a problem. Some of those cases, as I already mentioned cases of the person being manipulated, can straight up be abuse. Others are not.

A lot of people who are perfectly mentally okay end up getting wrapped in these abusive relationships because the abuser makes their significant other feel like they're the problem, and it's their fault for making the abuser upset or act controlling. I've personally met people who have suffered through things like this. They were okay beforehand, but as soon as they entered the relationship, they were very subtly manipulated and controlled until it slowly got worse and kinda broke their mental state. It's sad.

It is indeed sad, but not there that the person in that example became that way because of the abuser or because of issues they had prior which manifested with the abuser specifically. The "normalization" may, perhaps, perchance have had an impact there. I, however, find it more likely that the person's lack of questioning their own innitial assumption, or even the abuser's own manipulative tactics resulted in that sad situation.


Now, I will propose we end this conversation here, as it is starting to slip quite a bit off-topic.

 

[PhoenixMire]

Sure. But then you can't say anything that has "borderline abuse" in it is necessarily problematic, because you are assuming those people have deeper issues deep down or that this behavior you see as creepy is even abusive in the first place, something which the people involved (which when talking about characters is often the case) may not see as a problem. Some of those cases, as I already mentioned cases of the person being manipulated, can straight up be abuse. Others are not.


It is indeed sad, but not there that the person in that example became that way because of the abuser or because of issues they had prior which manifested with the abuser specifically. The "normalization" may, perhaps, perchance have had an impact there. I, however, find it more likely that the person's lack of questioning their own innitial assumption, or even the abuser's own manipulative tactics resulted in that sad situation.


Now, I will propose we end this conversation here, as it is starting to slip quite a bit off-topic.

You'd be surprised how many people I've met who read a book with a creepy guy in it and say, "I want a relationship just like that! Where can I find a guy like him???"
no
they don't want a guy like him but they don't realize that quite yet.

I get that you're saying fiction is just fiction and can't impact people as much as some others claim, which I slightly agree with, and I definitely don't agree with censoring fiction just because "some people might be sensitive to it!!"
Instead, all I'm saying - and what I think the whole point of this thread is - is that we're all just wishing creepy or weird relationships weren't so common in media.

anyway that's all from me

 

[Idea]

Instead, all I'm saying - and what I think the whole point of this thread is - is that we're all just wishing creepy or weird relationships weren't so common in media.

Sure. My final comment wasn't even about the thread as a whole, it was just about certain people who commented here and blamed entire genres and mediums as the primary cause of this being a thing.

 

[PhoenixMire]

Sure. My final comment wasn't even about the thread as a whole, it was just about certain people who commented here and blamed entire genres and mediums as the primary cause of this being a thing.

Makes total sense.
I feel like it's only a huge problem if someone has preexisting mental issues that make them think they can mirror fiction on reality. For other people who don't have that problem, they're probably generally fine.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I personally think it's a chicken and egg scenario. The power imbalance type relationships are popular because people buy into them. They overly saturate the romance market and thus they are considered normal part of the genre. And because they're considered normal more and more variations of them are created.

I think it's also a matter of escapism. If you read/write romance as escapism or wish-fulfillment than you aren't looking at it critically. The same way if I was to write a story where I gave myself the ability to turn into animals. I wouldn't waste time worrying about the realism and jump straight into imagining all the fun things I could do as a cat or dog or whatever.

The same thing with romance relationships. There are some women who like the idea of a man being obsessively focused on them or possessive of them. It makes them feel wanted and noticed. So they take the fantasy element of the scenario and don't worry too much about the nitty gritty details.

That said I'm aromantic so I never much brought into the romantic fantasy in general. But from what I've observed that seems to be people's stated reason for liking them.

 

[DDC]

Funny how this lead to recommendations but from OP's post some of what I can say is your subscription is too narrow and what you've seen so far is catered to ego-stroking, which sadly covers a lot of general market. It can be further broken down to gender majority of target market, personality majority of target market, cultural aspects of target market, current trends on the market, and some other stuffs like psychological and physiological aspect as to why this caters to that.

A further note on romanticizing borderline-abuse, not a Psych major but did some papers before, there are females into that; Sado-Masochism I mean, but not abuse. Though there still are a few cases of extreme Masochism getting on abuses.

To Anime, Kotomi-san, Aisaka Taiga, Erza, Nami, and lot of others are still out there though so don't lose hope in humanity.

 

[PandorasBox101]

Oh god, don't get me STARTED on the people who think the Joker and Harley Quinn have a "good" relationship and aspire to have such relationships with their significant other. For God's sake, people, you do NOT want to be verbally/physically abused. Is this some secret fetish I've never heard about?

 

[Idea]

For God's sake, people, you do NOT want to be verbally/physically abused. Is this some secret fetish I've never heard about?

I mean... its not exactly a secret... masochism that is.

 

[PandorasBox101]

I mean... its not exactly a secret... masochism that is.

That's true...

 

[rae2nerdy]

Oh god, don't get me STARTED on the people who think the Joker and Harley Quinn have a "good" relationship and aspire to have such relationships with their significant other. For God's sake, people, you do NOT want to be verbally/physically abused. Is this some secret fetish I've never heard about?

I think it's the Fifty Shades of Grey phenomena. They're taking things at the very shallow level. I can't speak to Harley and Joker in the comics but in the Suicide Squad movie they protrayed them as the kind of people that were super invested in each other and had one another's back.

So it's this fantasy that I want someone who is super obssessed with me and would be willing to break me out of jail and would be devastated if I was gone.

It's not meant to be real world literal. The intrinsic need is - "I want someone to love me and treat me like I'm the most important person in the world."

I would say it's far more likely to be insecurity fueled than masochistic. As the people don't actually want to be treated badly they want to be treated like their very important and be noticed and valued by the person they have crushes on

 

[Idea]

I would say it's far more likely to be insecurity fueled than masochistic.

Well yeah I only mentioned masochism in specific response to the "fetish whenupon a person wants to be physically/verbally abused"