Fishman Lord
ULTIMATE AI GOD
Discuss the setting, the story, and really anything OOC here.
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Alright, cool. This page is from the sci-fi setting Orion's Arm, it has a lot of good stuff on realistic space combat and it's a good resource: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4b3bde6666f25Hey, I'm working on some details for space warfare, so in case you have any space battles planned, I sugest you avoid them for a while.
Alright, cool. This page is from the sci-fi setting Orion's Arm, it has a lot of good stuff on realistic space combat and it's a good resource: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4b3bde6666f25
That Future War Stories is just HUGE! I'll read it soonCool. I have my own sources ( namely, Atomic Rockets, Tough SF and Future War Stories), but I'll check it out.
That Future War Stories is just HUGE! I'll read it soon
Thanks for doing the research and such on this! I'm near-finished with my CS, I'll work on some more setting stuff for our initial missions and the like after that's complete.Allright, first I'm gonna dump some of the weapons that we could feature in this setting. A lot of it will be fragments from articles of the sites I mentioned before, since this is a much more technical topic than warp drives and genetic engineering, and I'm not nerdy enough to know all the details by word.
I dont think I'll have to touch on the topic of lasers too much since it's already an obvious element of science fiction that you can read about yourself, so I'll just make sidenotes about their play in space battlefields as I go trough this.
But do feel free to add some other, more exotic types of weapons if you happen to know about them.
I'm gonna start with kinetic weapons:
+Mass Drivers: Stuff that shoots things with mass at people's faces.
They have one advantege over lasers that is unlikely to change for a good spectrum of technology levels: you can hit things from any distance, as long as you can ensure the rounds meet their targets.
You cant exactly do that with lasers, since they suffer energy dispersion as they travel. You could compensate for this by deploying drones with portable lenses that capture the laser and refocus it, but still, you can only go so far with this before the thing loses too much energy.
For realy high-tech civilizations, this advantage would hardly matter, but, for advanced civilizations with close levels of technology, kinetic weapons could prove usefull to the underdeveloped side to give the other one a kick in the groan from beyond the range of their better laser cannons. It's likely the Starmaker would keep kinetic-based warships just in case it finds itself in the "under-developed side" role, even if laser weapons play a much bigger role overall.
--Dangerously fast payloads:
"One way to throw it [the bullet] is to shoot it out of a gun — probably electrical, a railgun or coilgun. This, however, requires a heavy, high-power installation. As with lasers, coilguns with serious hitting power thus require big ships to carry them and their power supply. Another way to throw a slug, however, is to put it on the front end of a missile. The launching ship has to carry the missile, but this requires nothing more than a launching box, or even a clamp on the side. The third way to deliver a kinetic slug is the simplest of all: Head toward the target, fast, release the slug — then veer aside before it hits.
This last tactic has a lot in common with World War II dive bombing. In practice you would probably combine "bomb" and "missile" - the slug having a guidance motor to steer it into the target and counter any evasive moves on the target's part. Henry Cobb on SFConsim-l came up with the term lancer for this tactic and the ships used to execute it.
In contrast to zapping with lasers or similar weapons, lancer tactics favor small, agile ships. You need good maneuver performance, first to line up on collision course with your target, then to veer clear of the target — and its defensive fire envelope — after releasing your ordnance. Large size is no advantage, because the lancer ship needs no powerful on-board equipment, and because several small lancer ships are preferable to one big one. They can engage several different targets — or come at one target from several directions, boxing it in."
Comment: It's a prety cheap method of space warfare, so I doubt the ships of the Starmaker's fleet would resort to this. There's only one scenario I'd expect this to be used; I like to call it an "Orbital Jousting Match". Two ships approaching at very high relative velocities would be able to hit eachother with enough deadly force by just crapping out their ammunition, steering out of the way, and then finding out who got the "lucky hit". If they are allready approaching at the kilometers per second range, which isn't impossible for transplanetary orbits, firing said ammunition from a railgun wouldnt add much.
Source: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/fighter.php
--Coilguns:
"[commenting on the efficiency of particle beams as a means of transfering kinetic energy to a ship]
This would lead to a thermal beam divergence of about 2 million kilometers per light year. This could be reduced if the beam particles condense to larger particles after acceleration. To reduce the beam spread by a factor of a thousand, the number of mercury atoms per condensed droplet needs to be at least a million. This is an extremely small droplet (10^-16 grams) by macroscopic terms, and it is not unreasonable to believe that such condensation might take place in the beam. As the droplet size increases, this propulsion concept approaches that of momentum transfer by use of pellet streams, considered for interstellar propulsion by Singer (1980).
In that paragraph, Landis discusses the theoretical and practical lower limits for beam temperature, which decreases thermal blooming and expansion of the beam significantly. An alternative in the form of beam condensation was given. The accelerated particles merge to form small droplets, which expand much more slowly. [...]
We do not need near-lightspeed projectiles, nor is there interstellar gas to knock projectiles off-course. [Adapting this idea to a military scenario,] the pellet gun is perfectly suited to our requirements. It shoots tiny metal projectiles from dozens to hundreds of kilometers per second. There are design challenges, but it:
-Can cross space combat ranges in sufficient time
-Does not lose energy in transit
-Extreme efficiency is possible (99.9%+)
-Operates on coilgun or particle accelerator principles
-Difficult to detect
-Can be rapid-fired to bypass interceptors and Whipple shield defenses
-Negligible ammunition mass "
Comment: This model of a coilgun weapon could have a variety of variants for all sizes of ships. Big capital ships would utilize heavy versions that give them excelent range to keep the enemy away, while smaller vessels would use lighter models and close the distance trough superior maneuvering (unless theyre fighting laser warships, in which case they'll just have to back off). They'd probably pack these in clusters of barrels that fire sequentialy, instead of a single one tasked with rapid firing alone, for the sake of technical simplicity.
Coilguns are rather fragile, tough, so they might have to share room with railguns in a battlefield despite their advantages.
Sources: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-solution-to-long-range-space-combat.html#more
--Railguns:
"Railguns are simple to handle, and the kinetic energy at the muzzle is the energy that is delivered to the target. They are relatively compact, and do not require fragile equipment.
Railguns are limited by the ranges space combat takes place at, and the melting temperature of its components. At ranges of 10-100km, railguns can efficiently accelerate projectiles to several kilometers per second velocities and still hit targets. However, the presence of lasers can push ranges to a hundred times that, and it increases further with advancing technology. Higher velocities means that the friction between projectile and rail produces higher temperatures. Efficiency degrades as temperatures increase, creating a vicious cycle. Railguns are expected to be limited to velocities of 7-10km/s before rails and projectiles of any material melt."
Comment: With this argument, I believe railguns would be well suited for agile figther drones, that mount them on their spinal structure for maximized armoring and bracing. They'd use their higher acceleration to dodge and approach bigger targets, and work in small swarms to saturate any defensive systems. Railguns would possibly be a much cheaper weapon than coilguns or lasers, so they're fit for mass production.
Sources: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/03/electric-cannons-and-kinetic-impactors.html
--Missiles: I'm sorry to say I just dont have anything interesting to say about missiles. They're rounds that can fire autonomously, they have terminal guidance, and that's about all I have to say. I'm afraid you'll have to look up more on them on your on.
--Trans-jovian Artillery:
A wonderfull idea I picked up with Matter Beam from Tough SF.
"[talking about possible comercial interests a juvenile jovian industry could hold to the inner Sol System]
One trade that can be set up between Jupiter and the Inner planets is energy for energy. Jupiter can sell kinetic energy, while the Inner planets sell nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is of critical concern to military forces, as it allows the use of spaceships that can operate independently of any energy network.
Jupiter's kinetic energy 'exports' take the form of small robots, under 100 grams. Micro-satellites, in essence, with miniature thrusters and accurate guidance systems. Using the power network around Jupiter, they are accelerated away from Jupiter using laser beams, or simply shot in the right direction with a railgun. A minimum velocity of 13km/s is required.
13km/s is the orbital velocity of Jupiter. Shooting the miniature satellites 'backwards', or 'retrograde' at that same velocity cancels out their motion relative to the Sun. The Sun's gravity pulls on them, and they start to fall.
From an altitude of 5.2AU, they pick up a lot of speed while travelling inwards. At 1AU, Earth's orbital altitude, they reach 37.8km/s! Relative to a spacecraft orbiting Earth, they can have a velocity of up to 45.6km/s. "
Comment: Do I even need to explain it? This could make gas giants and distant bodies, hell, the outer rim of any system even, very valuable positions that astromilitaries would fight ferociously to secure.
Source: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2017/02/how-to-live-on-other-planets-jupiter.html
--Relativistic Kill Missiles:
" As Larry Niven pointed out, any space drive that obeys the law of conservation of energy is a weapon of efficiency proportional to its efficiency as a propulsion system. Today's boringly old-hat chemical rockets, even in the absence of nuclear warheads, are formidably destructive weapons: if you can boost a payload up to relativistic speed, well, the kinetic energy of a 1Kg projectile traveling at just under 90% of c (τ of 0.5) is on the order of 20 megatons. Slowing down doesn't help much: even at 1% of c that 1 kilogram bullet packs the energy of a kiloton-range nuke. War, or other resource conflicts, within a polity capable of rapid interplanetary or even slow interstellar flight, is a horrible prospect. "
Comment: This is more likely to be used against astromilitaries of kardashev 2 civilizations, as once a civilization already has settlements, industry and surveillance over it's whole native system, the only place where you could keep a minimal level of ambiguity about your location and actions will be in transtellar space. This could also be used inside systems, of course, but it sound like a bit of overkill, safe for the very "modest" 0.1 c 1kg slug mentioned in the paragraph.
Sources: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/apocalypse.php (keep in mind this page talks about Doomsday scenarios, so you might feel some existencial anxiety reading it.)
Allright, first I'm gonna dump some of the weapons that we could feature in this setting. A lot of it will be fragments from articles of the sites I mentioned before, since this is a much more technical topic than warp drives and genetic engineering, and I'm not nerdy enough to know all the details by word.
I dont think I'll have to touch on the topic of lasers too much since it's already an obvious element of science fiction that you can read about yourself, so I'll just make sidenotes about their play in space battlefields as I go trough this.
But do feel free to add some other, more exotic types of weapons if you happen to know about them.
I'm gonna start with kinetic weapons:
+Mass Drivers: Stuff that shoots things with mass at people's faces.
They have one advantege over lasers that is unlikely to change for a good spectrum of technology levels: you can hit things from any distance, as long as you can ensure the rounds meet their targets.
You cant exactly do that with lasers, since they suffer energy dispersion as they travel. You could compensate for this by deploying drones with portable lenses that capture the laser and refocus it, but still, you can only go so far with this before the thing loses too much energy.
For realy high-tech civilizations, this advantage would hardly matter, but, for advanced civilizations with close levels of technology, kinetic weapons could prove usefull to the underdeveloped side to give the other one a kick in the groan from beyond the range of their better laser cannons. It's likely the Starmaker would keep kinetic-based warships just in case it finds itself in the "under-developed side" role, even if laser weapons play a much bigger role overall.
--Dangerously fast payloads:
"One way to throw it [the bullet] is to shoot it out of a gun — probably electrical, a railgun or coilgun. This, however, requires a heavy, high-power installation. As with lasers, coilguns with serious hitting power thus require big ships to carry them and their power supply. Another way to throw a slug, however, is to put it on the front end of a missile. The launching ship has to carry the missile, but this requires nothing more than a launching box, or even a clamp on the side. The third way to deliver a kinetic slug is the simplest of all: Head toward the target, fast, release the slug — then veer aside before it hits.
This last tactic has a lot in common with World War II dive bombing. In practice you would probably combine "bomb" and "missile" - the slug having a guidance motor to steer it into the target and counter any evasive moves on the target's part. Henry Cobb on SFConsim-l came up with the term lancer for this tactic and the ships used to execute it.
In contrast to zapping with lasers or similar weapons, lancer tactics favor small, agile ships. You need good maneuver performance, first to line up on collision course with your target, then to veer clear of the target — and its defensive fire envelope — after releasing your ordnance. Large size is no advantage, because the lancer ship needs no powerful on-board equipment, and because several small lancer ships are preferable to one big one. They can engage several different targets — or come at one target from several directions, boxing it in."
Comment: It's a prety cheap method of space warfare, so I doubt the ships of the Starmaker's fleet would resort to this. There's only one scenario I'd expect this to be used; I like to call it an "Orbital Jousting Match". Two ships approaching at very high relative velocities would be able to hit eachother with enough deadly force by just crapping out their ammunition, steering out of the way, and then finding out who got the "lucky hit". If they are allready approaching at the kilometers per second range, which isn't impossible for transplanetary orbits, firing said ammunition from a railgun wouldnt add much.
Source: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/fighter.php
--Coilguns:
"[commenting on the efficiency of particle beams as a means of transfering kinetic energy to a ship]
This would lead to a thermal beam divergence of about 2 million kilometers per light year. This could be reduced if the beam particles condense to larger particles after acceleration. To reduce the beam spread by a factor of a thousand, the number of mercury atoms per condensed droplet needs to be at least a million. This is an extremely small droplet (10^-16 grams) by macroscopic terms, and it is not unreasonable to believe that such condensation might take place in the beam. As the droplet size increases, this propulsion concept approaches that of momentum transfer by use of pellet streams, considered for interstellar propulsion by Singer (1980).
In that paragraph, Landis discusses the theoretical and practical lower limits for beam temperature, which decreases thermal blooming and expansion of the beam significantly. An alternative in the form of beam condensation was given. The accelerated particles merge to form small droplets, which expand much more slowly. [...]
We do not need near-lightspeed projectiles, nor is there interstellar gas to knock projectiles off-course. [Adapting this idea to a military scenario,] the pellet gun is perfectly suited to our requirements. It shoots tiny metal projectiles from dozens to hundreds of kilometers per second. There are design challenges, but it:
-Can cross space combat ranges in sufficient time
-Does not lose energy in transit
-Extreme efficiency is possible (99.9%+)
-Operates on coilgun or particle accelerator principles
-Difficult to detect
-Can be rapid-fired to bypass interceptors and Whipple shield defenses
-Negligible ammunition mass "
Comment: This model of a coilgun weapon could have a variety of variants for all sizes of ships. Big capital ships would utilize heavy versions that give them excelent range to keep the enemy away, while smaller vessels would use lighter models and close the distance trough superior maneuvering (unless theyre fighting laser warships, in which case they'll just have to back off). They'd probably pack these in clusters of barrels that fire sequentialy, instead of a single one tasked with rapid firing alone, for the sake of technical simplicity.
Coilguns are rather fragile, tough, so they might have to share room with railguns in a battlefield despite their advantages.
Sources: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-solution-to-long-range-space-combat.html#more
--Railguns:
"Railguns are simple to handle, and the kinetic energy at the muzzle is the energy that is delivered to the target. They are relatively compact, and do not require fragile equipment.
Railguns are limited by the ranges space combat takes place at, and the melting temperature of its components. At ranges of 10-100km, railguns can efficiently accelerate projectiles to several kilometers per second velocities and still hit targets. However, the presence of lasers can push ranges to a hundred times that, and it increases further with advancing technology. Higher velocities means that the friction between projectile and rail produces higher temperatures. Efficiency degrades as temperatures increase, creating a vicious cycle. Railguns are expected to be limited to velocities of 7-10km/s before rails and projectiles of any material melt."
Comment: With this argument, I believe railguns would be well suited for agile figther drones, that mount them on their spinal structure for maximized armoring and bracing. They'd use their higher acceleration to dodge and approach bigger targets, and work in small swarms to saturate any defensive systems. Railguns would possibly be a much cheaper weapon than coilguns or lasers, so they're fit for mass production.
Sources: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/03/electric-cannons-and-kinetic-impactors.html
--Missiles: I'm sorry to say I just dont have anything interesting to say about missiles. They're rounds that can fire autonomously, they have terminal guidance, and that's about all I have to say. I'm afraid you'll have to look up more on them on your on.
--Trans-jovian Artillery:
A wonderfull idea I picked up with Matter Beam from Tough SF.
"[talking about possible comercial interests a juvenile jovian industry could hold to the inner Sol System]
One trade that can be set up between Jupiter and the Inner planets is energy for energy. Jupiter can sell kinetic energy, while the Inner planets sell nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is of critical concern to military forces, as it allows the use of spaceships that can operate independently of any energy network.
Jupiter's kinetic energy 'exports' take the form of small robots, under 100 grams. Micro-satellites, in essence, with miniature thrusters and accurate guidance systems. Using the power network around Jupiter, they are accelerated away from Jupiter using laser beams, or simply shot in the right direction with a railgun. A minimum velocity of 13km/s is required.
13km/s is the orbital velocity of Jupiter. Shooting the miniature satellites 'backwards', or 'retrograde' at that same velocity cancels out their motion relative to the Sun. The Sun's gravity pulls on them, and they start to fall.
From an altitude of 5.2AU, they pick up a lot of speed while travelling inwards. At 1AU, Earth's orbital altitude, they reach 37.8km/s! Relative to a spacecraft orbiting Earth, they can have a velocity of up to 45.6km/s. "
Comment: Do I even need to explain it? This could make gas giants and distant bodies, hell, the outer rim of any system even, very valuable positions that astromilitaries would fight ferociously to secure.
Source: http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2017/02/how-to-live-on-other-planets-jupiter.html
--Relativistic Kill Missiles:
" As Larry Niven pointed out, any space drive that obeys the law of conservation of energy is a weapon of efficiency proportional to its efficiency as a propulsion system. Today's boringly old-hat chemical rockets, even in the absence of nuclear warheads, are formidably destructive weapons: if you can boost a payload up to relativistic speed, well, the kinetic energy of a 1Kg projectile traveling at just under 90% of c (τ of 0.5) is on the order of 20 megatons. Slowing down doesn't help much: even at 1% of c that 1 kilogram bullet packs the energy of a kiloton-range nuke. War, or other resource conflicts, within a polity capable of rapid interplanetary or even slow interstellar flight, is a horrible prospect. "
Comment: This is more likely to be used against astromilitaries of kardashev 2 civilizations, as once a civilization already has settlements, industry and surveillance over it's whole native system, the only place where you could keep a minimal level of ambiguity about your location and actions will be in transtellar space. This could also be used inside systems, of course, but it sound like a bit of overkill, safe for the very "modest" 0.1 c 1kg slug mentioned in the paragraph.
Sources: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/apocalypse.php (keep in mind this page talks about Doomsday scenarios, so you might feel some existencial anxiety reading it.)
The only comment I would like to add is the likely existence of HVM's in this universe. (Hyper Velocity Missiles) More of a strategic level weapon, though this could change dependent on drive technology. The smallest deep space drive and it's energy source you can construct. Add an AI smart enough to home in on it's target, and you have a KK (Kinetic Kill) device travelling at relativistic speeds. No warhead needed. Biggest disadvantage, no real ability to strike anything with any degree of maneuverability. Biggest advantage... Nearly impossible to intercept if fired from far enough out to build serious C-fractional velocity. Tends to render planets into asteroid belts. Use not recommended.
(I know you mentioned relativistic bombardment, but if the drive systems are small enough, and the accelerations high enough, these could be a tactical rather than strategic weapon, especially for system defense if you know the incoming enemies trajectory).
It's still prety much the same thing, but I guess they could benefit from minituarization.
About defense, if the attack is another KK ( or RKV) you might not even need a relativistic round yourself. These things werent meant to stop, so troughout the whole trip, the missile will be traveling at dangerous speeds, and any collisions are likely to destroy the missile and dissipate it's remains. You could achieve that by just trowing a slow satellite at it, as for the missile, said satellite will practicaly arriving at relativistic speeds towards it.
If the satellite has maneuvering thrusters, it could home in on the missile and make sure to collide with it long before it gets to the target, which would likely be a planet. With the distances involved, the resulting debree and plasma would have a lot of time to dissipate.
Not to mention that while lots will be converted to plasma, the wavefront will still be traveling at relativistic speeds, so orbital intercept wouldn't do much but flash fry the side of the planet closest to the impact.
Alright, sounds good.I'm trying to set up a proper history that can be "true" to your lore. But I hope that in the next two days it will be done.
Your changes can be pretty drastic. There are many species that are technically descended from humans but share less DNA with them than your average mouse. Genetic engineering allows for some extremely major changes.How drastic can changes in appearance be for a character? As in barely recognisable as a human? Or not so much?
Awesome! I know at least one person who's going to submit a CS soon, and there may be a few others, so once the next CS or two are submitted we'll get started.Here's a sketch of two military ship classes I made:
View attachment 317567
The first one's a Watchtower-class Frigate. Notice the triangles on the top of the ship; those are an array of laser cannons. The holes are tubes holding Casaba Howitzer missiles. This arrangement is the same on the bottom of the ship, so the frigate has a total of 12 laser cannons and 10 Casaba Missiles.
The second one is the baseline desingn for the Fighter Drones. They have a 4-vector fusion drive and three radiator "wings". The main weapon is mounted on the tip of the drone.