Viewpoint What is the deal with First Person POV?

[Torrid]

Please note, a level of humour permitting, I am looking for genuine and inclusive discussion. Be nice to each other

I can't speak for group rps, though please feel free to contribute, but I regularly see in 1x1 interest checks a prerequisite for third person past tense. And I want to know why. From both those who do write FPP (first person perspective) and those who won't write with people who do. I'd also like to read the positive FPP experiences you might have had.

Does it make you uncomfortable? Is it because of the dreaded (and inevitable) SI monster? Did you have a bad experience? Do you associate it with bad writing? Is it simply an aesthetic choice?

Do you intentionally self insert? Do you only write in FPP and why? Do you prefer to write FPP as a stylistic choice?

Personally, I write in third person, with a stylistically intentional mix of past and present. I never practised first person, even in my prose, because of some of the above reasons (GOD FORBID someone confuse me with my characters!!!1) and now I feel like I am very behind on developing that particular skill. Because done well, it is a skill. I've roleplayed with some people who were, frankly, shit. First, third, past, present. They were shit. But some of my absolute best experiences have been with well played FPP, where the POV just adds that extra layer of intimacy and depth to an alreading banging post.

 

[peritwinkle]

Well first of all first person doesn’t really allow for multiple character POV switches. It would be weird to have two first person POVs in one RP, let alone one reply. Most roleplayers such as myself like to have an array of characters to play so as to keep things interesting and dynamic, whereas first person often appears in novels and focuses on the main character only.

Secondly, I for one associate first person with mary sue and self-insertions. That inevitably comes with situations which said rper takes as a personal attack, etc.. If you use rp as a means of escaping the real world and living a new life in your story then go for it, but for me... it’s a lil icky.

 

[rae2nerdy]

So I have only seen multiple first person points of view done well once in professional writing. Most of the time as the above poster mentioned first person is used when there is one protagonist that we are following throughout the story.

It is really a style that works best when you have one author and one protagonist. It can be used for multiple protagonists but it requires a degree of skill that I do not possess nor do most other people on this site.

I don’t necessarily worry about self inserts so much as I worry about character voice. The reason it’s difficult to make a roleplay with multiple first person points of view protagonists is because it has a tendency to make every character bleed together.

As the whole point of first person perspective is to insert yourself into the mind/perspective of the protagonist. And frankly I don’t care to insert myself into my partners characters perspective I’m trying to insert myself into my own characters perspective.

As for doing mixed points of view, it just reads uneven to me. Like there is a jarring switch between first and third person perspective that throws off my concentration when reading.

 

[peritwinkle]

Does this association come from specific experiences? And I'd be curious to know why you find it 'icky'. Though it's a widely held opinion I think.

Please do not feel obliged to answer any question if you do not wish to.

It does, actually. Long before I started roleplaying on this site I would often do first person POVs, and not only the people I roleplayed with but myself included inevitably... got too comfortable in our character’s shoes. It was back in the day when I wasn’t experienced at all (and really young) and now whenever I encounter first person roleplays/roleplayers, the replies really hint at self insertion.

I don’t blame them and I’m not saying everyone does this, but I am yet to encounter someone who writes in first person and doesn’t become too attached to their character/starts taking things personally.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think there might be some confusion between player intention and writing style here.

First Person perspective is designed to be self insertion. You (the reader) are supposed to insert yourself into the mind of the character. That’s the whole point of the technique.

However that’s very different than the writer inserting themselves into the narrative through their character.

People can do that using any point of view style. They do it in professional writing and they do it in roleplay as well.

So yeah I wouldn’t say that just switching your point of view is going to make you (the writer) more or less likely to insert yourself into the story via the characters.

It is going to make your readers more likely to insert themselves into the point of view of your character if you use first person over third person. Because again that’s the whole point of the style.

 

[Ace Cream]

I write mostly on third person. So I don't really like it if my partner decided to use FPP because it will ruin my immersion when reading the RP. The transition between reading my TPP writing and my partner's FPP writing will be janky and leave a bad taste for me.

 

[rae2nerdy]

So would you say your bias against FPP is mainly technical/aesthetic?
And do you find you are able to avoid 'character bleed' with third person?

Writing in third, particular over very sustained periods, I have found it sometimes challenging to maintain multiple protagonists distinct voices.

Some people could argue that there is more opportunity for distinct voice in first person.

So I wouldn’t say I have a bias. I just recognize the areas in which certain technical styles don’t fit the situation.

As I said I have seen exactly one author use multiple first person perspectives in a distinct way in a professional level. (Maybe two now that I think about it)

For the most part it isn’t a style used for multiple protagonists. The idea is to insert your reader into the perspective of one protagonist and follow them through their journey. You can absolutely add more characters in but it is EXTREMELY difficult with multiple authors.

That is from the practical standpoint that not everyone is going to be equally good at writing a distinct character voice.

Now that is also a problem with third person admittedly but the style there actually helps rather than hurts. As the point of third person is to put you at a slight distance to the character which can help with making each person distinct.

I think in your case the issue might be that you need first person to insert into your characters mind. But the problem is that there is no guarantee that writing in first person helps your partner do the same. So what you see as distinct character voices could just be one combined narrative to your partner.

As the creator of a character we are naturally predisposed to put ourself into our characters mind. And it can be difficult to do the same for our partners characters depending on our partners skill level. So I would say that if you have trouble telling your own characters apart you can certainly keep to first person. If you have trouble telling your partners characters apart that is down to their skill level not to the point of View their using.

 

[Crayons]

As the whole point of first person perspective is to insert yourself into the mind/perspective of the protagonist. And frankly I don’t care to insert myself into my partners characters perspective I’m trying to insert myself into my own characters perspective.

Exactly this. I don't want to read about my partner's character in first person because I want to maintain my perspective as my character. I find it incredibly distracting to suddenly be expected to "be" another person's character and then do a 180 switcheroo to write in my character's perspective. 3rd person keeps a more neutral writing focus so that both (or all) characters can be seen from a distance.

It's awkward to play in, and its awkward to read through.

I don't care if the character is a Sue-like self insert or the best, most well-developed, three-dimensional, multi-faceted awesomeness of a character, first person is an absolute turn-off no matter the content. When I first came to this site I was surprised to find that there are people who actually write literate, multipara RP in first person because it seems so antithetical to a good RP writing/reading experience.

There is a sense, in fiction, that first person is somehow inferior, and some people shun any narrative written in first person, because, so I gather, it seems amateurish. I think this is taking things a little too far personally, as there are plenty of amazing books written in first person. Jane Eyre is a good example. Assassin's Apprentice (and the rest of the series) is another.

 

[Crayons]

Does your definition of SI (in which the reader inserts themselves into the character), in the context of first person, detract form your overall roleplaying experience? I personally love seeing inside another characters minds, but I don't know that I've experienced inserting myself into the story via charcaters like that.

You can still see into their mind if the player writes in third person, just that you don't have to be them. The whole point of first person is to make you identify with the character in question. "John thought Carl was annoying, but he smiled anyway," conveys the same information as "I thought Carl was annoying, but I smiled anyway," without forcing the partner to do mental gymnastics.

 

[peritwinkle]

I think there might be some confusion between player intention and writing style here.

First Person perspective is designed to be self insertion. You (the reader) are supposed to insert yourself into the mind of the character. That’s the whole point of the technique.

However that’s very different than the writer inserting themselves into the narrative through their character.

I think I made it very clear that I was talking about when writers try to live through their characters and associate the rp with personal experience, not self insertion as a writing technique... These characters tend to present the author's emotions and personality as the story goes on, which is why I find first person faulty in the context of roleplaying.

You can definitely be objective AND roleplay first person. But from my experience first person roleplayers don't act objective when it comes to relationships, arguments and situations which provoke their fundamental traits.

 

[peritwinkle]

Do you think that writing in third person removes SI or people becoming too attached to their characters/taking things personally? And do you think you could write in first person now, as a more experienced role-player, with the same degree of detachment/neutrality as you do writing third person?

Obviously not, but it's much less diminished in comparison to first person, especially since, from my experience, it would be difficult to SI when you have multiple characters with different personalities to play.

I could write in first person since I've learned to detach myself, but the idea of limiting myself to one character per RP doesn't tickle my fancy at all

 

[Crayons]

Do you think that this 'sense' amongst the fiction/literature community that first person is inferior can also be found amongst the role playing community? is it possible that the apparent bias against first person could be a type of elitism amongst writers?

Please see my above post where I explained why I think first person is inappropriate for rp regardless of any snobbery.

 

[spookie]

when not writing for roleplay posts, i exclusively use first person. i'm better at it, it flows more naturally and i prefer reading it... at least in story form.

but for rp, like others mentioned above, it's generally awkward. i have no issues with the self-insert/mary sue thing, i don't care how someone sees their character as long as they're a decent writer, but in a group it would get... confusing, fast. i don't do 1x1, so i can't say if it would there.

when i got started with roleplaying as a kid it was in first person, because again, it's my personal preference and much more natural for me. no one ever complained, but over time i noticed it was rare and eventually learned to use third even if it wasn't as 'me'. when i started out it was janky and awkward, not gonna lie. now, thankfully, it's almost as familiar as first, and while i wouldn't use it in my story writing, i'm confident i can use it properly in rp.

tbh, i wouldn't be against trying out a small experimental rp using exclusively first person, but having only one player in your rp using it does look awkward.​

 

[Virus]

First pov is not the reccomended pov, unless you're writing a book, then you can use it. But for rps, third pov is the best kind to use if your in groups, pms,1x1 ... Any rps

 

[Virus]

I've been used to doing third person for a while now, it's getting to be a habit.
And most of the big gunned rpers have been using it as well, can't remember their names off the top of my head .

And there's no pressure asking this question, Amiga

 

[Melpomene]

I have always disliked first person. I have only written in it once and that was because I was trying to copy the writing style of Edgar Allen Poe for an assignment for school and while that was okay, I would never do it in my own creative writing not in a roleplay.

As mentioned before, it makes for a hard distinction between the player and the character and I have only role played with one person so far that I can say did it well. I would say, overall first person does not lean itself towards role playing that well, it makes the story sound a little clunky in my experience and I find it much easier to do PoV shifts when it is in third person (roleplay writing or with my own personal writing). I also find it more trustworthy to make sure people make the distinction between themselves and their characters when it is third person.

Finally, I simply have a dislike for third person. It puts me off books and roleplays alike. I mean things like My Sister's Keeper I was able to stand as well as Hunger Games, but just barely. Even young Inquisitor did not like first person perspective.

First person also feels very.... Limiting. While I usually write in limited 3rd person, I find it easier to give a better description of the world in third person because in first person I feel I can only describe things in terms of how the character thinks while in third person in an have a more general/artistic take on description even if I have a very... None artistic character as I sometimes do.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think I made it very clear that I was talking about when writers try to live through their characters and associate the rp with personal experience, not self insertion as a writing technique... These characters tend to present the author's emotions and personality as the story goes on, which is why I find first person faulty in the context of roleplaying.

You can definitely be objective AND roleplay first person. But from my experience first person roleplayers don't act objective when it comes to relationships, arguments and situations which provoke their fundamental traits.

I was more addressing the OP. I was in a bit of a hurry and didn’t get a chance to tag.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I don't personally write first person. I think I would have the exact issue you describe (character bleed) if I tried, simply for lack of practice.
I have also never roleplayed with someone who used multiple characters, all in first person. Only the combination of one/some first, others third. Making the distinction very easy

Have you ever had any positive experiences of first person? Or have they all been a bit crap?

They weren’t bad at all. As I said it’s more of a technical issue than any real dislike of the style.

The few times I have had partners use first person it was mostly just jarring. You would have like five people writing in third then one person in first person. Or it’s a one x one where it’s even more jarring.

 

[Syntra]

Honestly, I think this is a matter of RP culture more than anything else. You're just not used to first person roleplaying, but it does work and can be just as good as third person.

In my native language, people roleplay in first person almost exclusively and there aren't any real issues with self-inserts, Mary Sues or the style being jarring. It's just what everyone does, and so nobody thinks about it. If I asked them about roleplaying in third person, I assume they'd complain about it not feeling authentic or something like that because people love to look for logical justifications even when they don't really exist, but yeah, I don't think it actually matters that much. Not after seeing that both styles can bring the desired results.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Honestly, I think this is a matter of RP culture more than anything else. You're just not used to first person roleplaying, but it does work and can be just as good as third person.

In my native language, people roleplay in first person almost exclusively and there aren't any real issues with self-inserts, Mary Sues or the style being jarring. It's just what everyone does, and so nobody thinks about it. If I asked them about roleplaying in third person, I assume they'd complain about it not feeling authentic or something like that because people love to look for logical justifications even when they don't really exist, but yeah, I don't think it actually matters that much. Not after seeing that both styles can bring the desired results.

It's one thing if everyone is doing the style. Unfortunately that's rarely the case. In most cases it is one person doing one style and everyone else doing something different. That is largely the thing that makes it jarring. As it's not a uniform style of writing one way or another.

 

[Lorsh]

tfw you're a GM who does second-person writing...

 

[rae2nerdy]

tfw you're a GM who does second-person writing...

For NPCS? Or as your playable character?

 

[Ayama]

Chiming in with my two cents~

My personal experience has been that RPing in third person feels and flows better (though I will specify, for whatever difference it makes, that I only do group RPs). It's also been my experience that RPing in the first person is usually associated with or a considered a sign of inexperience and/or poor skills. Evidence to corroborate this includes:

-Books aimed at younger audiences are often written in first person perspective, to keep their readers engaged and entertained
-I myself, when I was younger, would use a first person perspective in my writing; it made me more into and excited about it

As people age, however, it seems that most (though not, by any means, all) writers drift towards a third person perspective. Most of the books I read now are written in third person, and most of the RPs I read and participate in now as well. It just feels, to me, like a natural evolution.

I, like many others, am now conditioned to appreciate third person perspective and, when I am tempted to revisit earlier works, and want to immerse myself in them fully as I once did, something in me balks at the idea of doing so in first person, feeling that it makes my writing voice sound immature, as it was back then.

That being said, it is absolutely possible to write mature, well-crafted, and engaging content in the first person. If this is done as a deliberate choice by a skilled writer, it can be quite wonderful content. But if it is not done well, and within the right setting, it will usually make the writing fall flat.

An excellent and relevant case in point here would be the Noir genre, one of the hallmarks of which is a first person narrator perspective. An excellent example of this can be found in the Dresden Files, which is a very well-written series and most definitely not intended for children.

Inspired by my appreciation for the genre, I've recently started my own organized crime RP, where first person and third person are both viable narration options for the players to use, and which has allowed me to cautiously dip my toe back into it and have fun with it again.

Of course, having a mix of perspectives can make things more clunky and obscure, forcing the reader to do mental gymnastics to keep up, which prevents them from enjoying the writing and the story, so within RPing it's generally advisable to stick to one perspective.

Ultimately, it's my belief that a good writer does well in different genres and styles, and different narration perspectives are just one more tool in the good writer's arsenal of writing skills (terrible mixed metaphors that make no sense are not- unless used with deliberate humor ;P ).

Through reading well-written works crafted in first person, writing pieces in first person ourselves and even (le gasp!) having an entire RP done in first person, I believe we can reach that next tier of skill and appreciation in our writing- that next evolution-, whereby we take back the first person perspective from the jaws of adolescent obscurity!

And now if you'll excuse me, I need to go deal with the newly mainstream writing issue of making sure I don't misgender my own (or other players') nonbinary characters in my next post! xD

​

 

[Crayons]

This is very interesting. May I ask what is your native language?
I'm inclined to agree with you, that it doesn't actually matter that much. Still. It remains very pervasive as a 'rule', and I am always curious as to why. Everybody in the against camp has put forward valid arguments, but we've yet to really hear from those with positive experiences.

When I started rping, third person never appeared as a rule. Most people still roleplayed in third, but it wasn't a prerequisite. I wonder if there is an aspect of copy-cat as well. Someone, possibly perceived as an 'advanced' player, put it in their interest check, and everybody else started to do the same thinking it was 'how things are done'.

I would also be interested to hear from people with positive experience of first person, and any reasons why those players feel that first is better than third - or rather what advantages it has. We've heard a lot about why people think third is preferable, but not anything in the reverse.

When I first started RPing up until the present day, there was never a "rule" about 3rd person, it was what RPers gravitated towards because of its many advantages (see above) and also by the nature of chat rp where the characters name appears on the left and you can add a colon to make that name the first word of the post, so that they are doing an action rather than just "saying" something.

I've never seen an element of copy-catting or a top down expectation for third person. It's always been what people do naturally, except some extreme newbie rpers that occassionally wrote in first. Until I came to this site and found there were people RPing in first, third was always an acknowledged part of rp culture.

 

[Idea]

I am a first person roleplayer. This is not to say that I never use third person, but I mainly do so for something like a GM post or if describing something about an NPC’s current actions that I simply cannot from the character’s perspective.

Said perspective is the reason why I roleplay in first person. When I roleplay I want to tell the story through the character’s eyes, show things how they experience them. For further context I am someone who prizes detail a lot. To me the structure, the atmosphere, the visualization are all part of the immersion and what of what makes a great post. The description of the setting helps build to this, but so does things like internal monologue, and the tie-in between the internal aspects of the character with their experience of the external aspects and the action is what I think first person does better than other types of perspective. You are closer to the character and their mindset, so it leans in better to describing things as experiences rather than facts, and lends itself better to adding the kind of details that I want without having to force those details.

The way I describe things is tied to the character’s vision about those things and how their thought process is. Third person looks from an outside perspective though, which would make this strange.

Long story short, I don’t think if first person as inherently better than third person by any means (rather I think they are equal), but I find that it is simply more suitable for my style of writing and characters, and more conductive to display the things I want/like to see in writing.

I do not write self-inserts unless the established point is to write self-inserts, nor at any point would I say that my posts make any sort of claim of my characters being more important- well, no more than their self-perception anyway. Even if a character of mine may think of themselves as the center of the universe, all of my characters are to a greater or lesser extent unreliable narrators. That character would probably spend a lot of time trying to rationalize how all things going wrong are actually really because they are so important and thus create that clear delineation between reality and the narrative as presented.

As a final note, in groups if I use multiple characters, I don’t usually put my characters together. I write them in distinct posts, or at least separated by a tab. To me that is quite enough.