Character Theory The 4th Wall

[Shog]

This thread is dedicated to answering one question: How to tastefully break the 4th wall. I don't run into people that create 4th wall breaking characters very often, but when I do I usually don't like it. The fundamental problem that I see is that it is hard to break the fourth wall in an interactive medium. When you read a book or watch a movie where the 4th wall is broken, it is much easier to work around the problems that come with other characters reacting to it. Often the wall break comes directly from the character's head (so there is no verbal transaction) or time freezes while they address the audience (or something else to a similar effect). That's not really something you can do while role playing (or at least nothing I've ever seen even attempted). The usual defense I see for 4th wall breaking characters is that they are crazy. This is fine and dandy, but then they don't maintain that attitude. The reason characters like Deadpool can pull it off so well is because the consistently act completely insane ("I'm gonna' kill you with a Zamboni!"). I often see RP characters only act "crazy" while breaking the 4th wall and this inconsistency makes it unbelievable to me. The usual argument I've seen against 4th wall breaking is that it pulls them out of the immersion. The counterargument here is that when you see a person on the street ranting crazy, does it pull you out of your immersion? The answer is no, but as far as I'm aware this is the one true reality, so there is nothing for me to be pulled out of. It's not my characters that are pulled out when a 4th wall break happens, but me trying to get in the mindset of my character.

So as cynical as all that sounded, I don't really have a problem if you create a character that interacts with the 4th wall. I usually just consider it a common courtesy to mention any shenanigans before they occur (preferably in your CS). I also think that, due to the nature of role playing, it is best not to fully break the 4th wall. Don't directly address the reader or shout for the "narrator" to shut up. Instead, just acknowledge it's existence or even tap on it. Maybe reference some medium not available in their world (like saying something about "The one ring to rule them all" in a high fantasy RP) or call a character by the name of their user (very occasionally). Another way could be to mention how everything feels like it's from a story (maybe followed by or something). I think these will work the smoothest. Other than that, you can try going full Deadpool and act completely off your rocker the entire time, but good luck keeping other characters around (most of my characters would need something that feels completely contrived to stick around with that).

Well, that's my two sense on the matter. What do you think on the matter? I know more than a few of you disagree with me and hopefully some don't.

 

[Platypus]

I don't think there's such a thing as tastefully breaking the 4th wall. I mean, it's just ruining the other player's immersion for the sake of an joke.

 

[kevintheradioguy]

I usually do that (kinda) by going for whether "what is it, some sort of a game to you?" thing, or a sarcastic remark in the lines of "right, this isn't serious, we're just a bunch of RPG characters to you". "Let's bow for the public".

In other words, anything with a good sense of humour, and what you, yourself, might say IRL. Not with a great chance, but might.

"My god, I'm an NPC!" I say when people ask me for directions. So might my cgaracters. "I think I levelled up" as well, after I succeed at some dire task. "Nooo, a quest!" when I get a hard mission to go through. "God bless fast travel". "It's a spawn point!".

Last time my char broke it by saying that the coincidences in the game are so severe, it feels scripted.

 

[official clown business]

I think it's always best to be subtle or careful about this kind of stuff. Make a reference here or there, address the voices in the sky sparingly, and, well, whatever else works as long as it doesn't cause people to drop their face into their hands and go 'is this guy for real?'

I don't like the idea of fourth-wall breaking in general so I don't dabble much in it myself. But subtle will be the way to go, I think.

Spoiler: Where are all these strings coming from?

Now, there is also another, far more dangerous direction one can take with this, and that is to just own the meta completely. Because buddy, this guy knows they're just a character in a story, and it'll change him completely and utterly.

Now, this is coming from that same old roleplay show I always watch, but it's been surprising me over time with how much it's starting to let the outside world influence it, to the point where a few characters have become aware of unseen individuals (the viewers and players of the show) who are responsible for much of this influence. It's a rather interesting change, but it's a little much for any roleplay on here, so instead let's just focus on one thing:

Spend up to fifteen minutes watching this video from the show and you will see an example of a character that has not only broken the fourth wall, but essentially erased it from existence, thanks to his level of self-awareness. Of course, you would need to build a roleplay around that somewhat, but it could prove quite interesting if you choose to make a character that has gone full fucking meta, gaining the understanding that they aren't the one at fault for their acts of virtue or atrocity; whoever pulls their strings is the one truly at fault.

If you can't be bothered to watch that video for whatever reason, here are some of the things the guy does that ignore the fourth wall, which you might be able to try out yourself:

• Claims any wrongdoing a character does is not their own.
• Claims no character in this world was ever born; they were simply created.
• Asks questions the character should know, but the player doesn't necessarily know. They may struggle to make up new information on the spot - and they'll be called out for doing so.
• Asks characters for their name. No, he's not asking for the name they were given upon their creation. He's asking for your name.
• Uses a loophole from his understanding to take advantage of the rules of his universe, ascending to the level of godhood. Whoa, you weren't expecting that one were you?

Aah, I love a good existential question in the morning.

Anyways, fourth wall breaking. Either I'm not doing it or I'm gonna have to go all in.
Really, though, if you're planning on doing anything of this sort, you'd better play your hand carefully. It can be hard to watch when it goes wrong.

 

[AlbaGuBrath]

I think one way to kinda tap on the wall, like you said, would be to use the narrative voice rather than the character itself. What I mean is, instead of having your character address the reader or be aware of being fictional (since, within the world they're living in, they're as real as anything else), maybe make a small outside reference to something the reader will understand but will still make sense within the context of the story. For example, in a story I wrote about a monk illuminating a manuscript, I mentioned his frustration with having "painted so many shining faces of saints and scholars," a nod to the idea of medieval Ireland being "the land of saints and scholars." Technically, it's never mentioned when or where the story is taking place (though it is hinted to be medieval Ireland), and I'm fairly sure that that particular phrase would only be used significantly later, but it is a small reference that the reader might notice while not being at all unusual for the character himself. That is, he may be aware that these figures make up the bulk of his subject matter and he's getting bored, but he doesn't know about the reputation regarding them that will develop in later centuries, if that makes sense?

I do think wall-taps are better for the narrator than a character's speech for the reason that, when the joke is in the narration, other characters aren't thrown by it. But I think it can occasionally be done with character speech if it 1) makes sense for them to say something like that and 2) other characters don't react strangely to it. Actually, the other characters being ignorant of the joke is part of the fun. I often enjoy Skyrim RPs, so for example, someone might have a horse vendor make the claim that "These horses are the most nimble-footed around. Why, I bet they could walk down the side of a mountain without falling!" Because he's trying to sell the horse, it makes sense for him to exaggerate their abilities (and other characters may react with various levels of belief/disbelief), but players reading that statement may find it humorous because of the broken physics of horses in-game. So yeah, I think it can be done well in small amounts, but the joke should only apply in our own world, if that makes sense.

 

[BackSet]

Another way could be to mention how everything feels like it's from a story (maybe followed by or something).

That's called lampshade hanging and is seperate from fourth wall breaking.

I don't think there's such a thing as tastefully breaking the 4th wall. I mean, it's just ruining the other player's immersion for the sake of an joke.

That's called being a jerk to people who like a good joke.

I myself break the fourth wall in real life sometimes (And honestly, I'm like 90% sure my life is a sitcom by now.) so it's one of my favorite tropes.

First, let me say this: this "it ruins the immersion" and "it's hard to do well in an interactive medium" talk is absolute bs. Look at video games! Look at metal gear solid! Look at tabletop! People break the fourth wall in all of those and they're interactive mediums so why not roleplay! I just read a choose your own adventure book where the main character talked directly to the reader! Those are interactive mediums and they make it work! So stuff your "immersion ruining" talk!

Second, I shall get on to the real meat of this. Fourth Wall Breaking expert BackSet, at your service. Now, fourth wall breaking, like any trope, is best used in it's proper dosage. If there are suddenly 50 ultimate weapons of ultimate power, people's suspension of disbelief disappears. The same applies to fourth wall breaking. If your constantly breaking the fourth wall all the time every other sentence, nobody's gonna like that. But, when used in the proper dosage in funny and/or original ways, it's great. If someone says something like "great, just what this roleplay needs, another convoluted villain plot." That's completely ignorable and also kind of funny because a. That's not something you say loudly. It's more of a muttered under the breath kind of thing. And b. It could possibly be said internally. When said internally, fourth wall breaking works. Noone has to question it because they didn't hear it. That's the beauty of internal dialogue.

 

[Platypus]

. Look at video games! Look at metal gear solid! Look at tabletop! People break the fourth wall in all of those and they're interactive mediums so why not roleplay!

The problem with that argument is that it hinges on people thinking it doesn't ruin the immersion in those cases as well.

 

[BackSet]

The problem with that argument is that it hinges on people thinking it doesn't ruin the immersion in those cases as well.

Metal gear is a popular video game series. I've heard stories of fourth wall breaking on DnD games. Theres a prestige class in the (partially joke) dnd supplement "portable hole full of beer" that hinges entirely on fourth wall breaking.

 

[Emmi]

I agree. I remember I was part of a roleplay and the GM created a gary-sue type character. At first, I didn't really do anything, since he's the GM. However, it got to the point where the character started breaking the fourth wall. This pissed me off so much, that I left the rp.

 

[Platypus]

Metal gear is a popular video game series. I've heard stories of fourth wall breaking on DnD games. Theres a prestige class in the (partially joke) dnd supplement "portable hole full of beer" that hinges entirely on fourth wall breaking.

And your point being? All that proves is that some people like 4th wall jokes, it doesn't prove that, as you put it, "the [breaking the 4th wall] ruins the immersion" talk is absolute bs".

 

[Shog]

That's called lampshade hanging and is seperate from fourth wall breaking.

That's called being a jerk to people who like a good joke.

I myself break the fourth wall in real life sometimes (And honestly, I'm like 90% sure my life is a sitcom by now.) so it's one of my favorite tropes.

First, let me say this: this "it ruins the immersion" and "it's hard to do well in an interactive medium" talk is absolute bs. Look at video games! Look at metal gear solid! Look at tabletop! People break the fourth wall in all of those and they're interactive mediums so why not roleplay! I just read a choose your own adventure book where the main character talked directly to the reader! Those are interactive mediums and they make it work! So stuff your "immersion ruining" talk!

Second, I shall get on to the real meat of this. Fourth Wall Breaking expert BackSet, at your service. Now, fourth wall breaking, like any trope, is best used in it's proper dosage. If there are suddenly 50 ultimate weapons of ultimate power, people's suspension of disbelief disappears. The same applies to fourth wall breaking. If your constantly breaking the fourth wall all the time every other sentence, nobody's gonna like that. But, when used in the proper dosage in funny and/or original ways, it's great. If someone says something like "great, just what this roleplay needs, another convoluted villain plot." That's completely ignorable and also kind of funny because a. That's not something you say loudly. It's more of a muttered under the breath kind of thing. And b. It could possibly be said internally. When said internally, fourth wall breaking works. Noone has to question it because they didn't hear it. That's the beauty of internal dialogue.

As far as video games go, fair enough. They do count as interactive media. That said, I was attempting to specifically reference such forms where you interact with other people in character. I'm sure there are plenty of examples related to fourth wall breaking out there (probably an innumerable amount just talking about MMOs), but this thread being based specifically on RPs I'd rather not dig into that. Now this thread is labeled as "The 4th Wall" and while lampshade hanging my not officially break the 4th wall, it clearly interacts with it so I still think it is viable for this conversation. As far as "That's called being a jerk to people who like a good joke" goes, humor is completely subjective and if Platypus (or others of the same opinion) don't think it's a good joke then that's just being a jerk right back. I consider a lot of a good 4th wall break to be built upon that expectation, going back to when I mentioned how I believe it should be a common courtesy to forewarn people about your character's tendency to break the fourth wall. It makes the experience less jarring and is part of the reason games like Metal Gear Solid get away with it so easily. As for tabletop games, that's still completely subjective. Myself, none of my friends, nor the people they play with have ever broken the 4th wall (well, not intentionally). We just don't like it (that said, I'm still an extreme novice). When it comes down to it, role playing (in this form) is fundamentally different than most (if not all) other forms of interactive media and should not be treated the same. And I will not "stuff my "immersion ruining talk" because I have had my immersion ruined by the 4th wall being broken in an RP. I find it a jarring experience and always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth (barring a few exceptions where I expected it and it was more of a tap rather than a direct break). Beyond that, I really can't disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph. Especially about internal dialogue, which I think is one of the best ways to pull it off. As I mentioned earlier, I am not against interacting with the 4th wall. I just wanted to see what people had to say on the matter and maybe figure out "tasteful" ways to pull it off.

 

[BackSet]

"That's called being a jerk to people who like a good joke" goes, humor is completely subjective

True, but as they say, treat other people how you want to ge treated. He can have an opinion but to say it can't be pulled off and others shouldn't do it is being a jerk.
I'm going to say something not manu people like but: F*** immersion. It ain't real. I tend to treat roleplays like books. I get attached to the characters but i know fully well that the characters are not real and have no connection to me beyond a couple being controlled by me. The one time i possibly break this rule is when i say I instead of my character. (I do the same thing in video games).

And your point being? All that proves is that some people like 4th wall jokes, it doesn't prove that, as you put it, "the [breaking the 4th wall] ruins the immersion" talk is absolute bs".

It proves that a large amount of people enjoy fourth wall breaking jokes and that it doesn't ruin the immersion for them (otherwise they'd be complaining). And before you say anything: we're not studying this on a case by case basis since e neither have a large enough sample size nor time.

 

[Platypus]

True, but as they say, treat other people how you want to ge treated. He can have an opinion but to say it can't be pulled off and others shouldn't do it is being a jerk

I fail to see how saying that it can't be pulled off is being a jerk. It's just my opinion.

It proves that a large amount of people enjoy fourth walbreaking jokes and that it doesn't ruin the immersion for them (otherwise they'd be complaining). And before you say anything: we're not studying this on a case by case basis since e neither have a large enough sample size nor time.

I still don't get how it's relevant. I mean, give me a week or two and I'm sure I'd find an equally large group that dislike 4th wall jokes.

 

[Shuusuke]

In real life, when I'm talking to myself or with a closer group of friends, sometimes I pull a "I just missed a 99%", or "whoever's playing as me sure has a sadistic sense of humor" and things like that. But the two important things here are 1) that I'd only do it with a closer group of friends and 2) it's only if that situation can afford a joke.
In RP, considering I haven't made "close friends" who RP, I'll overlook that part, but that just makes the second one all the more important. If someone tries a 4th wall breaking joke in a serious situation, I find it very difficult that I'll appreciate it. It doesn't matter how "smart" the joke was, if the situation/scene did not call for a comedy moment, it's a shot in the foot. Even making your character be an avid reader/gamer and a real disrespectful or "crazy" person will probably not earn you any lenience from me if you do that. The worst part is that the one who pulled it off will probably feel proud at first, while the others will probably not like it.

Also, it doesn't matter if you personally don't care about immersion, I'd wager most people who RP do. And immersion isn't "not realizing those characters aren't real", come on. I mean, if for every story ever written, there's an actual parallel universe where all that's real, that'd just be amazing. But I don't count on that, and I doubt most people do as well. If we did believe in that, I and others wouldn't have planned some of their character's tragic backstory and endings, because it'd mean creating a real person only to put them through suffering. RE:Creators feels.
Immersion is more a matter of respect to me, you're going through the effort to treat a fictional universe, that someone went through the effort to create, as if it were real, and it's only natural to want others to respect it as well. I'm not about to be in an RP where the atmosphere is darker and then a character exclaims "we're going to zerg rush them!" just before a serious battle, or say "they just didn't invest enough in HP" in a funeral scene. There's a time and place for jokes, 4th wall breaking or not. If your RP is not explicitly about comedy, or otherwise allowed/encouraged 4th wall breaking in the ruleset, I'd advise to think many times before pulling that off, even if the particular scene is comical. You're risking disrespecting the whole RP and universe you're in as well as the other players, and no matter how confident you might be, it's not a good risk to take if you actually want your RP to procceed smoothly.

 

[Shog]

True, but as they say, treat other people how you want to ge treated. He can have an opinion but to say it can't be pulled off and others shouldn't do it is being a jerk.
I'm going to say something not manu people like but: F*** immersion. It ain't real. I tend to treat roleplays like books. I get attached to the characters but i know fully well that the characters are not real and have no connection to me beyond a couple being controlled by me. The one time i possibly break this rule is when i say I instead of my character. (I do the same thing in video games).

Shuusuke already stated it beautifully, but just because you aren't aiming for immersion doesn't mean others aren't. And again restating the above post, I don't get immersed thinking it's real. I go in pretending it's real. I draw a line between fantasy and reality, and then temporally cross that line to live in an escapist reality (often a power fantasy) and pretend to be that character. It gives me temporally reprieve from real life, which is why I refuse to quit even when stress is building IRL (though I have been known to take breaks). Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, immersion (the act of deeply engaging yourself in something) is completely real. It just depends on whether you let yourself become immersed or not. Far be it for me to tell others how to live their lives, but treating immersion like it doesn't exist disregards a large portion of people and their thoughts, which I believe is something that should be greatly avoided.

 

[Shog]

Shuusuke already stated it beautifully, but just because you aren't aiming for immersion doesn't mean others aren't. And again restating the above post, I don't get immersed thinking it's real. I go in pretending it's real. I draw a line between fantasy and reality, and then temporally cross that line to live in an escapist reality (often a power fantasy) and pretend to be that character. It gives me temporally reprieve from real life, which is why I refuse to quit even when stress is building IRL (though I have been known to take breaks). Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, immersion (the act of deeply engaging yourself in something) is completely real. It just depends on whether you let yourself become immersed or not. Far be it for me to tell others how to live their lives, but treating immersion like it doesn't exist disregards a large portion of people and their thoughts, which I believe is something that should be greatly avoided.

Also, forgot to mention that I have found myself immersed in many books. Again, I know they aren't real, but it's fun to pretend that they are and so are their struggles. It's much easier from a first person perspective. Though why do you get immersed in video games when you know that isn't real either?

 

[Idea]

There are many ways to break the fourth wall. Some of those can be done perfectly in character, others for gag reasons. In general, I try to ban blatant fourth wall breaks for immersion reasons and also because there is the risk that it will be used for metagaming. That said, if it's more of a parody or comedic RP, I can probably let it slide or even join in on the fun

That said, 4th wall breaking is a narrative TOOL not a in-universe element. What we call a 4th wall break is only so aknowledged because of the prior aknowledgement that we're interacting with a self-contained story. 4th wall breaking in particular is a weird one as it sacrifices emergion to bring out particular points. And that is why it is often so awesome to see in media- because it's really good to convey those tones, putting the story into more of a perspective. And yet, it's really hard to pull into an RP because there isn't really a unified narrative purpose, but an interaction of many different narratives.