Palladium RPG - Reworking the Xp System

[Epiphany]

Given that this thread is specific to Palladium RPGs (i.e. Rifts, Robotech, TMNT, etc.), I imagine the majority of folks who browse this forum won't have much to say. That said, a few of you come to mind! Namely Sherwood Psychie Vaneheart WlfSamurai Orikanyo Silanon and maybe Esbilon

So, I'm immensely dissatisfied with the Palladium xp system. Mostly because it's a relic of the 1980s (much like the rest of the rules). In particular, it's written under the assumption that players will play in the same game/campaign for years with long, weekly sessions (i.e. 52 sessions a year or so). That rarely feels true in the hobby anymore and it's even less true for play by post games which only Sherwood seems capable of making them last for a year or longer...and that real life year of time often covers maybe an in-person month's worth of sessions. Also to his credit, characters level up in his games (and if you have a specific metric for how you calculate experience rewards that's different than the books, I'd love to know what it is).

I've been contemplating my own game for a while and part of that contemplation is making xp useful again. At the moment, my thought is:

1. Award levels on a milestone basis. Characters finish an arc of the game, level them up.​

2. Still award xp but instead allow it to be used to buy up traits.​

It's the second point I'd love some help with. Particularly on (A) what good costs might be, (B) what limitations there should be and (C) if it's a good idea at all.

My initial thought is:

A level's worth of skill: 500 xp​

One point of attribute: 1,000 xp​

12 SDC/MDC: 500 xp​

6 Hit points: 500 xp​

10 ISP/PPE: 750 xp​

Buying an OCC-Related Skill: 1,500 xp​

Buying a Secondary Skill: 2,000 xp​

I'm also toying with the notion of allowing PCs to buy additional Psionics/Spells/etc. but let's face it, Palladium isn't the most balanced game as it is and I'm concerned it'll unbalance the spread between OCCs/RCCs even further.

What do you guys think? Suggestions? Comments? Improvements? Anything you'd like to see done differently with the xp system that can make awards feel meaningful beyond "Oh, hey, you get to level up so enjoy 1D6 more hit points and all your skills go up by 3-5%"?

 

[Sherwood]

First off, thanks for thinking of me for feedback. There are a few tweaks that I have used to good effect here, and I happily share them with you.

One thing I have done with most of my Palladium games is the ability to add a skill with each level up you go. That makes it possible to increase your pool of knowledge faster than the one skill every 3-4 levels that most OCC's give out.

I also have taken a page from Pathfinder and DnD and give out attribute increases beyond what you can get from your skills every 3-4 levels. I let this free point go to any attribute, and letting someone be able to increase their Iq or other mental stat is a real bonus, since all the skills that I am aware off only give out physical boosts.

As far as awarding xp, I use a mix of pages posted (for the roleplaying aspect) and awards gained through combat. That way, if the team is doing a lot of active roleplaying and less combat, they are still advancing their characters.

When you get into increasing the numbers of spells or psionic powers that a person can get, I have usually let the OCC be my guide. In Rifts, a Ley Line Walker gains a spell with every level, but they can also learn other spells in between levels. With that in mind, I will make sure to include opportunities for the magic types to learn a new spell by buying it from another caster, or just a general swap back and forth. Getting new psionic powers usually is a level advancement thing, so a Mind Melter gets to pick a new power or two from the different categories with a limit on how many Super psionic powers that the character can get.

The idea of being able to spend your xp to buy up stats/skills/powers is an interesting one. I had not thought of that before. The costs might be a bit off, but that can be tweaked with some trial and error to see if your players are advancing too fast or too slow for your tastes. It depends on how often you want them to be able to better themselves. I might try a hybrid solution, giving some awards as simple level advancement and others available to the player to advance by 'buying' them with their points, letting a player choose where to put his or her focus for advancing the character.

 

[Sherwood]

Another good person to try and get some ideas from is Purr . He's an old hand at gaming, and uses some of these tweaks in his two games that I'm in.

 

[Epiphany]

Can you give me an example of what typical combat awards are vs. what your rates are for pages-posted?

Let's use Wlfsamurai's Expedition Under Fire as a baseline, since we're both in it but neither of us is running it. How would you have 'xpeified' this thread, using your metrics?

 

[Sherwood]

Hmmm. Hard to say, since I would have set up the combat a bit different. But I do typically award at least 500 to 1000 xp per page of posts, with potential for more depending on what kind of twists the players come up with.

 

[Epiphany]

So, 1st to 2nd takes about 2-4 pages of posts.

5th to 6th takes about 8-16 pages of posts.

10th to 11th takes about 36-80 pages of posts.

Hmmmm. I'll have to think about that. Although if combat awards are done too (or the usual 50-100 for an act of kindness, or a great observation, etc.), that closes the gap a little.

I guess what I'd like to see is players having the chance to see their characters meaningfully progress in ways that let them explore late-game builds for their characters, without making the accomplishment cheap. One idea I toyed with was simply "One level a month" so if the game lasts a full year, your character's in striking distance of doing the epic stuff in their OCC/RCC (if any). The obvious issue with that is play by post pace can mean that you have characters who've basically done a few missions and are suddenly the equal of 30 year veterans. Which is why I thought spending xp on individual traits would be a way to keep leveling under control (and still useful) while letting people round their character out or specialize further in play.

I'll have to think about it. Thank you, Sherwood! Any other thoughts, from you or anyone else?

 

[Purr]

Heya Pips! I have some opinions to contribute and I will post them when I'm able. =)

Thanks for the ping, Sherwood! =)

 

[WlfSamurai]

For my part, speaking of that game, I'm actually thinking I'm going to award based on milestones. For instance, this large engagement/combat, I think you guys are going to AT LEAST jump a level.

But it doesn't have to be combat. I take the AW-style of things. So, I plan on highlight changes in relationships, risks taken, victories, and losses. But, it will be an estimate on where you guys are at currently and how I want you to move up.

I agree the old way of having a mathematical way to figure it all out doesn't fit, unless you do it the way Sherwood does, which is actually really smart.

And thanks for including me, too!

 

[Purr]

Disclaimer: I am writing this reply having read only the first post. I want to answer the original post before I read the replies mothers and thereby possibly alter my own opinions.

That rarely feels true in the hobby anymore and it's even less true for play by post games which only Sherwood seems capable of making them last for a year or longer...and that real life year of time often covers maybe an in-person month's worth of sessions.

If I may brag on my own players, my game Robotech: Broadsword will be in its third year soon. It is mostly based in the Palladium gaming system. =)

Also to his credit, characters level up in his games (and if you have a specific metric for how you calculate experience rewards that's different than the books, I'd love to know what it is).

For both my Robotech and Pathfinder games, I use an XP system I've used for a very long time. I award "RP Points" which are based on Player-Character cooperation, attendance, sharing a positive attitude, writing style, trueness-to-character, teamwork, helping out in OOC, and overall participation. Put simply, player contribution is the way to XP in my games.

When players get together in our OOC channel and put their heads together to help their fellow learn the rules or make a difficult decision, all accrue RP Points (for teamwork and sharing a positive attitude). But if a PC, say, knowingly and willingly tries to get away with using OOC in-game to benefit their character or another's, that PC gets docked RP Points (for poor roleplaying).

I also take Real Life into account. Got a PC who can barely post once a week, but their posts show they know what's going on in the story, and they`ve told you they are up to their necks in college-work? Full RP Points for them, I say! How about another PC who posts all of the time but is struggling to learn the game? But when you look in your OOC Channel, you see their name all over the asking game-related questions while trying to contribute to everyone's fun? Just take the RP Points *flings them generously*! =)

At the end of a chapter, I will tally these points up and divide them among the players (as they have agreed to) and they all level up at the same rate. Bonus points are given to lower-level players who have met higher-level difficulties.

* * *​

(More later.)

 

[Purr]

It's the second point I'd love some help with. Particularly on (A) what good costs might be, (B) what limitations there should be and (C) if it's a good idea at all.

A. I think the costs are a bit high. I don't understand why a Secondary Skill (that comes from a very select list and never has an O.C.C. bonus) costs more than an O.C.C.-Related Skill?

B. I would put limitations on how much of an Attribute one can raise (or be ready to have the min-maxers buying P.P. and I.Q. every level).

C. For me, it is but it isn't. Here's why:
I feel if someone is going to replace an xp system, it ought to be equal or better than the system they are replacing (especially an old system like Palladium). As a player, I'm one of those that really looks forward to every level. There is a lot more going on than just d6 hit points and skill boosts in one Rifts game I am playing as a PC. For the Rifts Character (a True Atlantean Tattooed Undead Slayer), every level my character gets a tattoo, more M.D.C., more P.P.E., skill level bonuses, 1 skill (from a GM who doesn't mind what that skill is just as long as its prerequisites are made and that skill is approved; I've also been doing this in the Robotech game I'm running), 1 bonus Attribute of choice every 3 levels (as it is in Pathfinder), and bonuses from his Martial Art Style (taken from Ninjas & Superspies minus the powers and extra skills provided by said systems). I think that's everything? =)

That's a lot to look forward to every level! And now I have to pay for it and chance getting less?

However... in the Robotech game I have recently joined, my character (Tac Corp Special Forces Recon Patrol) the hit point roll, skill level bonuses, 1 skill every level, 1 bonus Attribute of choice every 3 levels, bonus from Hand to Hand: Commando (much more limited than Ninjas & Superspies, but still fun), and I think that's it.

That's not so much to look forward to every level. And now I have to pay for it and chance getting more?

My point - a pay-system should beat the existing model of the game in terms of fun! I think no one does pay-systems better than White Wolf (especially the early systems like Werewolf: the Apocalypse with Merits and Flaws, etc.). Every time you gained xp, there were a dozen different things you wanted to spend it on and the fun was choosing what you wanted the most! In Palladium, where you get what you get and choose the rest, I think it's easy or hard to get excited depending on what you're playing. The skill system doesn't make sense. You get to improve skills you haven't used since you started the character? That might be convenient, but it's not realistic at all. I much prefer D&D 3.0/3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0/2.0 (coming out in August! Woo!) where you get skills points and you put them where you'll think you'll have the most fun.

So, concerning skills, what if characters got a "skill pool" and were able to divvy up percentage points where they thought best? Put a ceiling on it (say, 2 points above the typical "per level" limit. Meaning a skill that is normally upgraded 5%/level can be upgraded 7%? That way you're adding to skills you use.

Not cool with maybe getting to the 98% cap? Maybe consider what I do and ask players to keep track of their "True Skill Percentage" for when a character is taking on negative modifiers (I'll get more into this if requested)?

That's all I've got for the moment, Pips. I'll start reading the rest of the thread now. =)