Opinion My issue with religion is...

[apolla]

Before I start, I want to make this clear that I am NOT trying to pick a fight. I'm not trying to shit on anyone who believes in God, or in any other higher power. I myself was raised Christian, but I now am Wiccan. I would also like to keep this thread respectful, if possible. [Since I know talking about religion is one of the unspeakables.] But here, I would like to hear other peoples issues with religion. Any religion. I'll say my issues with Christianity, because that's what I know. But feel free to address issues with any religion, because I'm genuinely curious as to why people don't believe in them [or why you do, that's okay to put here too.]

My issue with Christianity:
1. The bible states that jealousy is a sin, yet also states that god is a jealous god? I don't understand why it's a sin for us, as humans with free will, to be jealous yet it's okay for him just because he's omnipotent.

2. Homosexuality being a sin. Coming from a god who *supposedly* created the world and again, is omnipotent and all knowing, why would he claim to love all of his children yet condemn a portion of the population to eternal suffering just because they're gay?​

That's what I have... feel free to discuss with me, or drop your own feelings or whatever. But again, please be respectful to me and to others. We're all friends here.

 

[Axel The Englishman]

What's this?

I see...

 

[Project Naiad]

Tons of religion threads these days, and what's more surprising, they mostly seem to go relatively well.

I'm agnostic I guess, simply because I don't completely exclude the possibility of the existence of one or more deities based on what humanity knows at this time.
That said, I believe in what I can see and experience.

I have issues with Christianity, mainly for the same reasons in op.
I'm homosexual myself, so it's hard for me to accept a belief that sees me and others like me as abnormal. (And no 'hate the sin love the sinner' shit please, it does not make it any better thank you very much).
I also dislike a system of belief that tells people that they are imperfect and that they should seek perfection through worship. I prefer to think perfection can be reached through oneself and through others.
Finally, I had some experience talking with Jeovah's Witnesses as well, and that too has led me to disagree with their belief.

My issues are with men, however, not with divinity, since of course I have no experience with the latter.

 

[Hige]

I'm not a christian nor am I really the type of person who can debate philosphy, but here are my answers from what I know as a historian. I've done a bit of reading on Judaism but by no means am I an expert. And before anyone asks, I'm pagan. I actually don't believe in Christanity. I just wanted to give OP some food for thought.

1. You seem to be under the asumption that a heavenly being such as a creator is held to the same laws applied to humans? It just doesn't work like that, and I'm pretty sure most religious christians would agree with that. Applying human restirctions to dieties isn't really going to work.

2. Old school christian religions sent everyone to hell. Puritans believed only a few chosen would go to heaven, and many who were good men, but not chosen, got sent to hell. God is already angry with Man's unrullyness by eating the forbidden fruit, so the mindset in the angry God is that he has every right to send humans to hell, but its his mercy that keeps some out of hell or not.

If you are interested in the second answer, Day of Doom and some other Purtian writers have some good stuff you might be into, I can drop a few more names and literature if you want.

 

[apolla]

1. You seem to be under the asumption that a heavenly being such as a creator is held to the same laws applied to humans? It just doesn't work like that, and I'm pretty sure most religious christians would agree with that. Applying human restirctions to dieties isn't really going to work.

That is true, and something I hadn't thought about before. Good point.

2. Old school christian religions sent everyone to hell. Puritans believed only a few chosen would go to heaven, and many who were good men, but not chosen, got sent to hell. God is already angry with Man's unrullyness by eating the forbidden fruit, so the mindset in the angry God is that he has every right to send humans to hell, but its his mercy that keeps some out of hell or not.

If you are interested in the second answer, Day of Doom and some other Purtian writers have some good stuff you might be into, I can drop a few more names and literature if you want.

I'd love anything you got! I really want to gain more knowledge on the subject, because I feel as though most of my personal thoughts come from more of a personal area, aka how I feel, instead of factual matters [facts].

 

[Hige]

I'd love anything you got! I really want to gain more knowledge on the subject, because I feel as though most of my personal thoughts come from more of a personal area, aka how I feel, instead of factual matters [facts].

Try reading:

Sinners in the hands of an Angry God
Anne Bradstreet (the religious natured ones, not the femnist ones)
Upon Wedlock, & the death of children

This will give you a small insight to some differing christian views, especially ones that more readily accept this ideology of an angry god.

 

[apolla]

Try reading:

Sinners in the hands of an Angry God
Anne Bradstreet (the religious natured ones, not the femnist ones)
Upon Wedlock, & the death of children

This will give you a small insight to some differing christian views, especially ones that more readily accept this ideology of an angry god.

Again, I thank you ^^

 

[Idea]

Now I can't speak for all christians, heck I can't guarantee I can speak for all catholics (since I may be mistaken), but as far as I'm aware your two issues only apply if you go the fundamentalist type of faith, one which we catholics don't adhere to. To explain my point I will adress each of your concerns below.

1. The bible states that jealousy is a sin, yet also states that god is a jealous god? I don't understand why it's a sin for us, as humans with free will, to be jealous yet it's okay for him just because he's omnipotent.

Yes, the bible does appear to make a lot of contradictions, but one cannot forget the bible, especially the old testament, is mostly a giant poem. Factual? Yes. But not factual in the sense of being a scientific report on the descriptive nature of each event. Factual in the sense that what is written it, at least by christian belief, is what happened. But the words used to describe what happened are flourished and often broken in translations and overall just not something that is meant to be read literally.

When reading the bible the cultural context in which it was written should always be taken into account. The thing that makes the bible such a divise book even among christians is that it is trying to convey a message or point moreso than history, but it uses history for this effect.

Now I can't recall exactly which passage claimed God was jealous, so I can't even try to explain why that might be there , but I do know that at least as far as catholics are concerned, God is an omnibenevolent being and therefore never jealous. We do however believe God has the right to everything, for everything is God's.

2. Homosexuality being a sin. Coming from a god who *supposedly* created the world and again, is omnipotent and all knowing, why would he claim to love all of his children yet condemn a portion of the population to eternal suffering just because they're gay?

Again, speaking only of catholicism, being homosexual is not a sin. Heck, even having homsexual sex is not a sin. And neither does God condemn people to hell, they choose to go there of their own accord, blinded by the corruption of sin.

This does not mean gay marriage is ok, if done by the church. There is no problem getting married by the state, that's with you, but marriage by the church is between man and woman for one very specific reason: God-given children.

 

[SmugViking]

 

[Axel The Englishman]

 

[Hall Kervean]

Answer: It is important to understand how the word “jealous” is used. Its use in Exodus 20:5 to describe God is different from how it is used to describe the sin of jealousy (Galatians 5:20). When we use the word “jealous,” we use it in the sense of being envious of someone who has something we do not have. A person might be jealous or envious of another person because he or she has a nice car or home (possessions). Or a person might be jealous or envious of another person because of some ability or skill that other person has (such as athletic ability). Another example would be that one person might be jealous or envious of another because of his or her beauty.

In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs. Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.

In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.

Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that God declares to belong to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols. This is precisely the jealousy the apostle Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy...”
Why is God a jealous God?

 

[Project Naiad]

Homosexuality is a sin. But if you're a believer, God forgives your sins, right?
There's a reason for the saying "Even the Devil believes." You may believe God exists with all your heart; heck, you may believe you're a Christian.
But see, one of the requirements of going to heaven is that you have a relationship with God; i.e. you don't put anything before God. So if you live a lifestyle of sin, you're putting something (sin) before God. That means that you don't actually have a relationship with God, and if you don't have one, then you aren't going to heaven.
Homosexuality isn't a onetime sin; it's a lifestyle. And because it's a lifestyle of sin, homosexuals can't get into heaven.

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. It's a way of being, which can't be chosen or changed.
Which leads to the questions: 1. Why God, who supposedly is a loving entity, disapproves of two men/women who love each other not doing any harm? And if he disapproves of homosexuality then why did he made it possible? To test us? Seems pretty sadistic if you ask me.

 

[The Gunrunner]

Ooo!
I have a meme for this.

 

[Lappi]

As a asexual man I am not attracted to anyone. But I have dated (and heck. Ive had some moments) with men while I was still finding my place and I say that I dislike religion.
The hell stuff is just a ancient idea that was used by the powerful to control the poor and stupid with scary language.
Also I dislike the logic of "You don't get sent to hell you choose!" Even though the same god often claims to make each human in his image.

 

[Idea]

As a asexual man I am not attracted to anyone. But I have dated (and heck. Ive had some moments) with men while I was still finding my place and I say that I dislike religion.
The hell stuff is just a ancient idea that was used by the powerful to control the poor and stupid with scary language.
Also I dislike the logic of "You don't get sent to hell you choose!" Even though the same god often claims to make each human in his image.

I don't follow your line of thought in that's last paragraph?

 

[Idea]

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. It's a way of being, which can't be chosen or changed.
Which leads to the questions: 1. Why God, who supposedly is a loving entity, disapproves of two men/women who love each other not doing any harm? And if he disapproves of homosexuality then why did he made it possible? To test us? Seems pretty sadistic if you ask me.

1. God is the first cause of all things, but God is not the secondary one. He set the universe in motion but there is no direct intervention for every single thing that happens.

2. God does not disapprove of homosexuality as a way of being, at least by catholic standards (since the Pope approved it). The reason we don't want gay marriage by the church is because it goes against the purpose that marriage fulfills in a catholic's life, self-sacrifice and the establishment of a complete family unity in the light of God.

 

[Project Naiad]

1. God is the first cause of all things, but God is not the secondary one. He set the universe in motion but there is no direct intervention for every single thing that happens.

2. God does not disapprove of homosexuality as a way of being, at least by catholic standards (since the Pope approved it). The reason we don't want gay marriage by the church is because it goes against the purpose that marriage fulfills in a catholic's life, self-sacrifice and the establishment of a complete family unity in the light of God.

1. I fail to see how this is an answer to my first question.
2. The pope may have 'approved' of it, but there's still a ton of prejudice against gays, both among believers and non, mostly because of the church's influence.

 

[Idea]

1. I fail to see how this is an answer to my first question.
2. The pope may have 'approved' of it, but there's still a ton of prejudice against gays, both among believers and non, mostly because of the church's influence.

Oh, my numbers were unrelated to yours, my apologies for the confusion.

And yeah, there is a lot of prejudice, but it's just a biased assumption of yours to call it the church's work , though i will not deny there was Christian influence on the matter, it just was neither the majority nor the stance of a church overall. It was done by individuals who strayed from the overall beliefs.

 

[Project Naiad]

Oh, my numbers were unrelated to yours, my apologies for the confusion.

And yeah, there is a lot of prejudice, but it's just a biased assumption of yours to call it the church's work , though i will not deny there was Christian influence on the matter, it just was neither the majority nor the stance of a church overall. It was done by individuals who strayed from the overall beliefs.

Please.

 

[Idea]

Please.

You're welcome

 

[Count Gensokyo]

My issue with atheism:​

1.) The blatant disregard of the law of causality/the idea of a Prime Mover that is itself unmoved (an Aristotelian idea) in favour of purely naturalistic explanations.

2.) The general aggressiveness I often see directed at believers, especially on the internet (but that's just the internet in general). Take a look at the "Personal Discussions" section here alone—there's been a recent influx of religion posts aimed at prodding Christianity with a stick on order to elicit a reaction out of it, and you don't see many other posts aimed specifically at other groups. OP has mentioned this not being the case this time, but you can never be too cautious.

 

[Project Naiad]

2.) The general aggressiveness I often see directed at believers, especially on the internet (but that's just the internet in general). Take a look at the "Personal Discussions" section here alone—there's been a recent influx of religion posts aimed at prodding Christianity with a stick on order to elicit a reaction out of it, and you don't see many other posts aimed specifically at other groups. OP has mentioned this not being the case this time, but you can never be too cautious.

Like that couldn't be said about christians. FE not to while ago there was a thread around that went "Atheism is a sickness of the mind" or something.
If that isn't bait...

 

[Count Gensokyo]

Like that couldn't be said about christians. FE not to while ago there was a thread around that went "Atheism is a sickness of the mind" or something.
If that isn't bait...

Did I say the opposite couldn't be true? People generally being jerks is nothing new.

Pretty much everyone knew that guy was a troll from the 4chins sooner or later though. Not sure where he went after his rampage of b8 threads, now that I think about it.

 

[Project Naiad]

Did I say the opposite couldn't be true? People generally being jerks is nothing new.

Pretty much everyone knew that guy was a troll from the 4chins sooner or later though. Not sure where he went after his rampage of b8 threads, now that I think about it.

That's what I meant. There's trolls and bad people on both sides.

 

[TPBx]

Before I start, I want to make this clear that I am NOT trying to pick a fight. I'm not trying to shit on anyone who believes in God, or in any other higher power. I myself was raised Christian, but I now am Wiccan. I would also like to keep this thread respectful, if possible. [Since I know talking about religion is one of the unspeakables.] But here, I would like to hear other peoples issues with religion. Any religion. I'll say my issues with Christianity, because that's what I know. But feel free to address issues with any religion, because I'm genuinely curious as to why people don't believe in them [or why you do, that's okay to put here too.]

My issue with Christianity:
1. The bible states that jealousy is a sin, yet also states that god is a jealous god? I don't understand why it's a sin for us, as humans with free will, to be jealous yet it's okay for him just because he's omnipotent.

2. Homosexuality being a sin. Coming from a god who *supposedly* created the world and again, is omnipotent and all knowing, why would he claim to love all of his children yet condemn a portion of the population to eternal suffering just because they're gay?​

That's what I have... feel free to discuss with me, or drop your own feelings or whatever. But again, please be respectful to me and to others. We're all friends here.

1) This one might have been answered at some point, but the Hebrew word from jealous in this context also means zealous. Meaning that God is incredibly devoted to his people and wants to see them succeed, and he wants them, the Israelites, to completely devote their lives to him and not to false idols. Remember that back in their day, it was the norm to worship multiple gods, but God wanted their sole devotion to him. God does not want to be just known as the God of the Jewish people but wants to be recognized as the one and only God by them and anyone else who follows him.

2) This one is an incredibly hard question that comes down to the question of evil and its existence. Many people have tried to answer this and there is no really good answer. Though to answer your thoughts specifically on homosexuality, everyone is damned from the moment they are conceived due to original sin. Homosexual or not, all of humanity is all on the same playing field, and without accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior, every single person is damned to hell so to speak. So at the end of the day it comes down to whether or not an individual becomes a believer and chooses not to practice sin. Just as an adulterer or murderer should not fornicate nor kill people respectively, homosexuals have to resist the urge to become sexually involved with other people of the same sex. It is a hard life, but it is for the glory of God. However, we are human, and we make mistakes. Sex is an incredibly powerful urge and is a part of life. And sometimes we'll fall prey to our temptations. But faith in the Lord is what helps us overcome them, and even if we fail, just know that Christ has already forgiven you as a believer and move on with the encouragement not to stumble again.

I hope this helps, and...

Disclaimer: By no means am I am a learned apologist, but between 7 years of Christian School and a year and a half at Christian University, I've at least learned some things. Though a lot of it has been in one ear and out the other, so don't expect me to know everything about the Bible, Christian Theology, and etc.