Project Naiad
Octopus in disguise
Sorry, but I find this profoundly wrong.
Opinion My issue with religion is...
- Thread starter apolla
- Start date
apolla
❛ it's only love, nobody dies ❜
Hall Kervean
Idea
Project Naiad
Lappi
Count Gensokyo
TPBx
Thank you for your input. Really, some of you had points that I hadn't considered. Like the meaning of the word jealous and the context in which it was used. Also how in Catholicism being homosexual is not a sin, as long as marriage is not done by the church (I hope I worded that okay).
It doesn't sway my beliefs, but I'm happy that this thread is staying civil.
TPBx
Simpin for Witch Tea
Well I mean its not just homosexuality as I said before. Lets say for arguments sake, someone is genetically predisposed to wanting multiple partners, like they literally cannot be monogamous. Regardless the punishment is still eternal separation from God in the afterlife if they act upon their urges to sleep with another man or woman other than their spouse.
Of course this begs the question why did God create them in such a way. And now we are at the point of why does God let these things happen if hes almighty and yadda yadda yadda.
Project Naiad
Octopus in disguise
All legit questions IMO. Would you cut off your arm for the glory of god? I wouldn't.
TPBx
Simpin for Witch Tea
Well yeah no of course not. But if you truly believe in God you'd trust in him through thick and thin. In Gensis, Abraham displayed such faith and was about to sacrifice his own son for God. Jesus himself even relented his own destiny, asking God to, "Take this burden from me," when he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane the night he was sentenced to death. (idk if spelled right). So yeah faith in God has to be balanced with some amount of rationality.
Anyways its 4am. I'm tired. And God why am I up. Peace out guys. God bless.
Project Naiad
Octopus in disguise
That's what "renouncing" homosexuality is like. Cutting off an important part of yourself and live the rest of your life in pain. What kind of god would ask this of his creations?
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
No problem. And just as a side note, my goal is to be converting anybody. It'd be great if I ever managed to do that, but ultimately I'm happy so long as I can clean up some of the misconceptions people have about religion and get them to think about the contents of the beliefs, not what these are portrayed as by their enemies.
Thank you for your input. Really, some of you had points that I hadn't considered. Like the meaning of the word jealous and the context in which it was used. Also how in Catholicism being homosexual is not a sin, as long as marriage is not done by the church (I hope I worded that okay).
It doesn't sway my beliefs, but I'm happy that this thread is staying civil.
Axel The Englishman
The Holy Crusader
Cut off your arm for the glory of God? Pass me the bone saw, doctor!
Project Naiad
Octopus in disguise
With pleasure.
Axel The Englishman
The Holy Crusader
GOD WILLS IT
Lappi
The Living Script
As in "You choose to go to hell" but god at the same time makes you in his image and if you do what he made you to do then you can go to hell.
ApfelSeine
Murder by Numbers 🏳️🌈🖥️
When it comes to religion, I'd say I'm most familiar with the Catholic Church, so what I have to say deals primarily with that branch of Christianity.
The God of Christianity has not, to my knowledge, been presented as a jealous God (at least not in the modern meaning of the word). Depending on the branch of Christianity, there are completely different accepted translations. I believe the Catholic church uses one approved by the Vatican. Not all Christians defer to the Pope though (heck, I am pretty sure it's only Roman Catholics who do) so the English translations differ in regard to accuracy and recency of translation.
I remember attending a mass at an Episcopalian church once. My roommates wanted to go see the Easter mass at Trinity church, since Hamilton was buried there, so I tagged along. The Catholic church changed their Bible translation a few years ago, or something like that, and that included rewriting a lot of the prayers that are said at each mass. My roommates kept giggling at the mass we went to because they're Roman Catholic, and so it was weird for them to keep getting the prayers wrong because they expected different wording. When I think about that, I realize how fragile the original meanings of words are. Even expert translations become outdated simply because the vernacular we use changes year by year.
To that end, I wish to address the point about homosexuality. One user brought it up and drew a moral equivalency between homosexuality and aldultery/murder. That is both insulting and, based upon the beliefs of the Christians I know, not fair to say it is the belief of the church. (That is not to say that exact same belief isn't widespread throughout the Christian religion though. It very much is, which I vehemently disagree with.) For one thing, adultery and murder are forbidden by the ten commandments, whereas homosexuality is not. This is apparently a very major distinction, which brings us back around to the subject of translations.
Why is homosexuality considered a sin in Christian religions (aside from unitarians who just kinda accept everyone)? It's said in the Bible that it's an abomination, but what does that mean exactly? We can't just assume it means what we say abomination means nowadays, since word meanings change and this translations may not be the best fit. We have to go off of context clues. What else is an abomination? Eating shellfish, wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating pork, etc. Those were things people should not do it they wanted to stay pure and go to heaven. So why doesn't the church forbid those things nowadays?
There's a couple reasons actually, but let's keep it within what the religion says rather than taking about social and cultural factors. I have been told that there's a point at which those things were no longer demanded of people, something which is unique to Christianity. The whole "Jesus died for your sins" thing is not just something people spout randomly, it's a core belief of the Christian faith (at least, I'm pretty sure it is since all the ones I know include it). That means, apparently, that Christians are no longer beholden to those laws in Leviticus and suchlike. That's why you'll see Jewish and Muslims adhering to the whole dietary restrictions and similar restrictions. They don't believe there was a savior who absolved them of those requirements.
"But wait!", I hear you hypothetically protest, "why does Christianity (mostly) forbid homosexuality then?" A very good question, and I might not be the best person to answer it, but let's draw on the things I've learned from my roommate who interned with the Catholic diocese (being biased towards Catholics again, but bear with me). The church has to condemn homosexuality because they want to promote marriage that includes procreation, which biologically has to happen between a man and woman (except by the influence of science magic).
The line of reasoning goes something like this:
Must promote procreation in marriage -> must ban acts of sodomy (non procreative sex) -> homosexuality is sodomy -> must ban homosexuality.
So the reason why homosexuality is common among many Christians is that homosexual couples can't produce babies. The local churches choose to emphasize this to varying degrees, from banning homosexuality outright to just banning homosexual marriage (to being accepting, if you're a cool Unitarian who plays by the cool Unitarian rules. And no I'm not Unitarian, I just think they have their priorities straight). Some local churches choose not to emphasize homophobic aspects, since it's really not a crucial part of their beliefs, though rarely will they specifically condone it. In progressive areas of America, one generally sees local churches which avoid controversial topics like homosexuality/abortion because they know a good part of the congregation wont agree with what is said.
I appreciate y'all talking the time to read this. Just a side note, Christianity is not representative of all "religion". There are many others that exist. So just as any particular branch of Christianity does not represent the whole Christan religion, Christianity does not represent all religions everywhere. Since I have friends who belong to many different religions (or who are not religious), I like to make an effort to defend or explain each perspective.
The God of Christianity has not, to my knowledge, been presented as a jealous God (at least not in the modern meaning of the word). Depending on the branch of Christianity, there are completely different accepted translations. I believe the Catholic church uses one approved by the Vatican. Not all Christians defer to the Pope though (heck, I am pretty sure it's only Roman Catholics who do) so the English translations differ in regard to accuracy and recency of translation.
I remember attending a mass at an Episcopalian church once. My roommates wanted to go see the Easter mass at Trinity church, since Hamilton was buried there, so I tagged along. The Catholic church changed their Bible translation a few years ago, or something like that, and that included rewriting a lot of the prayers that are said at each mass. My roommates kept giggling at the mass we went to because they're Roman Catholic, and so it was weird for them to keep getting the prayers wrong because they expected different wording. When I think about that, I realize how fragile the original meanings of words are. Even expert translations become outdated simply because the vernacular we use changes year by year.
To that end, I wish to address the point about homosexuality. One user brought it up and drew a moral equivalency between homosexuality and aldultery/murder. That is both insulting and, based upon the beliefs of the Christians I know, not fair to say it is the belief of the church. (That is not to say that exact same belief isn't widespread throughout the Christian religion though. It very much is, which I vehemently disagree with.) For one thing, adultery and murder are forbidden by the ten commandments, whereas homosexuality is not. This is apparently a very major distinction, which brings us back around to the subject of translations.
Why is homosexuality considered a sin in Christian religions (aside from unitarians who just kinda accept everyone)? It's said in the Bible that it's an abomination, but what does that mean exactly? We can't just assume it means what we say abomination means nowadays, since word meanings change and this translations may not be the best fit. We have to go off of context clues. What else is an abomination? Eating shellfish, wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating pork, etc. Those were things people should not do it they wanted to stay pure and go to heaven. So why doesn't the church forbid those things nowadays?
There's a couple reasons actually, but let's keep it within what the religion says rather than taking about social and cultural factors. I have been told that there's a point at which those things were no longer demanded of people, something which is unique to Christianity. The whole "Jesus died for your sins" thing is not just something people spout randomly, it's a core belief of the Christian faith (at least, I'm pretty sure it is since all the ones I know include it). That means, apparently, that Christians are no longer beholden to those laws in Leviticus and suchlike. That's why you'll see Jewish and Muslims adhering to the whole dietary restrictions and similar restrictions. They don't believe there was a savior who absolved them of those requirements.
"But wait!", I hear you hypothetically protest, "why does Christianity (mostly) forbid homosexuality then?" A very good question, and I might not be the best person to answer it, but let's draw on the things I've learned from my roommate who interned with the Catholic diocese (being biased towards Catholics again, but bear with me). The church has to condemn homosexuality because they want to promote marriage that includes procreation, which biologically has to happen between a man and woman (except by the influence of science magic).
The line of reasoning goes something like this:
Must promote procreation in marriage -> must ban acts of sodomy (non procreative sex) -> homosexuality is sodomy -> must ban homosexuality.
So the reason why homosexuality is common among many Christians is that homosexual couples can't produce babies. The local churches choose to emphasize this to varying degrees, from banning homosexuality outright to just banning homosexual marriage (to being accepting, if you're a cool Unitarian who plays by the cool Unitarian rules. And no I'm not Unitarian, I just think they have their priorities straight). Some local churches choose not to emphasize homophobic aspects, since it's really not a crucial part of their beliefs, though rarely will they specifically condone it. In progressive areas of America, one generally sees local churches which avoid controversial topics like homosexuality/abortion because they know a good part of the congregation wont agree with what is said.
I appreciate y'all talking the time to read this. Just a side note, Christianity is not representative of all "religion". There are many others that exist. So just as any particular branch of Christianity does not represent the whole Christan religion, Christianity does not represent all religions everywhere. Since I have friends who belong to many different religions (or who are not religious), I like to make an effort to defend or explain each perspective.
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Idea
The Pun Tyrant
I am trying to make sense of what you are saying , but I am not being able to. What part of that did he made you to do? Better said, what did he make you do?
Lappi
The Living Script
Basically
1) he made you in his image
2) you do what's natural too you and by his rules you go to hell.
What I'm saying is I dislike the fact that in the lore he makes rules that you break when he created you.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
God made mankind in his image does not mean we programmed robots that follow a set of instinctive irresistable commands, it means we were made as his family and as beings with immortal souls. Free will is a major element in actual catholic beliefs (admitedly in some protestant ones predistination is a thing, but I generally don't argue for those).
Lappi
The Living Script
I'm used to predistination and can't argue for free will.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Huh...alright
Lappi
The Living Script
I mean that I'm not educated enough to debate the subject*
apolla
❛ it's only love, nobody dies ❜
I'm not gonna lie, I was a little intimidated by the huge wall of text but I love what you wrote and how you wrote it. Very well written, I mean, and enjoyable to read. I'll in no way shape or form pretend I'm well versed in pretty much anything when it comes to religions and such. I was raised one way and didn't branch out until very recently, and I dislike that. I want to learn more. So I appreciate your answer very much.
Rachael of the Shire
The Witch Among The Shirelings
I was raised a Christian, but my beliefs were heavily influenced by my own personal experiences and Wicca after I fled my parents' house.
There is an all powerful creator. All religions get something right about this creator, and all religions make mistakes. While my background means that I am far more likely to refer to a male God, he could just as easily be female because all genders stem from him.
I believe in the existence of past and future lives, in good and evil spirits, and the ability to interact with the spiritual realm. I believe that God has blessed animals with a consciousness just as he has blessed humans, even if it is different than ours.
All has been created with a plan and a purpose. Of course, there are things that I do not understand (as I am not an all knowing being), but everything happens for a reason that we will learn eventually.
I'm this weird thing between a non-denominational Christian and a witch. Old traditions and beliefs can take a very, very long time to change.
There is an all powerful creator. All religions get something right about this creator, and all religions make mistakes. While my background means that I am far more likely to refer to a male God, he could just as easily be female because all genders stem from him.
I believe in the existence of past and future lives, in good and evil spirits, and the ability to interact with the spiritual realm. I believe that God has blessed animals with a consciousness just as he has blessed humans, even if it is different than ours.
All has been created with a plan and a purpose. Of course, there are things that I do not understand (as I am not an all knowing being), but everything happens for a reason that we will learn eventually.
I'm this weird thing between a non-denominational Christian and a witch. Old traditions and beliefs can take a very, very long time to change.
CargoCultist
New Member
So much this. Free will is not usually defined very well. When it is, it is typically nonsensical. When phrased in terms of "Everything is not predetermined", it's simply incorrect. Depending on your definition of coercion, even "The ability to make a non-coerced choice" can be incorrect. I make this pronouncement even though I am agnostic on the majority of philosophical issues - even ones dealing with the existence of a god(s). The way I examine it, it seems impossible to me for it to be any other way - regardless of your belief or lack-of-belief in god.
Basically, it's either series of cause and effect with an uncaused causer, or an uncaused cause (IK that's a mouthful). Either way, the origins of the universe are unable to be explained adequately. All I know is that cause and effect appears to be immutable.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Very well then let me ask you this: What is "you"? Cause free will is when you do make a decision but could have made another. When within an existing set of more than 1 option, you can choose any of them by your own will.
CargoCultist
New Member
What you will choose is predetermined. You can't choose the circumstances that lead to your choice-making schema, you can't choose the circumstances that lead to the decision-making situation. Seeing as every decision you make is near-entirely (if not entirely) dependent on these two (admittedly broad) factors, I can say that you couldn't have made a different decision than the one you made. So free will in that sense is an illusion.
Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Almost entirely, you say. So long as there is even a bit that is decided by your will, free will is not an illusion. So, once again, I ask the question, what and who is "you", exactly.
CargoCultist
New Member
Forgive me, those were weasel words. I meant, in essence, that there may be other factors I wasn't considering, but that those would still fall under the law of cause and effect. I'm firmly convinced that your "will" (If you mean what I think you mean by that) is as governed by the laws of cause and effect as anything else, and that everything happens because of something else that we don't have control over. As for the bit questioning what "you" or "I" am, I fail to see how that's relevant. Nor do I know what sense you mean "you" in. Do you mean my immutable essence (which doesn't exist) or my occupation (for the record, I'm a bit of a dilettante) or my qualifications to make such sweeping statements? Or something else?
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