Video Games Doki Doki Literature Club

[KyroMontresor]

Well, overall I think that the entirety of the game is very well paced with a satisfying ending, even if some of the writing suffers overall. I agree that all of the characters are basic archetypes, though argue that an attempt for more complex characters would fall flat due to the length of the game. I still believe that I got what I wanted out of the work, even if a few scares were added in unnecessarily. I think, even though the characters are archetypes, they fit their roles well within the harem-visual novel spoof. Natsuki was a fun character, I wasn't trying to argue that she was an unpleasant addition to the game, but I think Monika should have messed with her a bit more (Though that could run the risk of either overwhelming the player or dragging out the game. Still, it could be done right). I stand by that this game truly was a horror experience and, while not totally original, I cannot compare it to another game in a way that would do it justice.

But regardless, I think an integral part of why this game is successful is because the community surrounding it are able to draw such deep opinions, comparisons, and beliefs on it. For crying out loud, it's 2am and I'm still discussing it XD I know some of the community does get heated about "Who is the best character and if you disagree then you have no taste," but I'm glad that, from the people I've discussed it with, there is actual intelligent thought put into responses.

 

[The One Eyed Bandit]

Well, overall I think that the entirety of the game is very well paced with a satisfying ending, even if some of the writing suffers overall. I agree that all of the characters are basic archetypes, though argue that an attempt for more complex characters would fall flat due to the length of the game. I still believe that I got what I wanted out of the work, even if a few scares were added in unnecessarily. I think, even though the characters are archetypes, they fit their roles well within the harem-visual novel spoof. Natsuki was a fun character, I wasn't trying to argue that she was an unpleasant addition to the game, but I think Monika should have messed with her a bit more (Though that could run the risk of either overwhelming the player or dragging out the game. Still, it could be done right). I stand by that this game truly was a horror experience and, while not totally original, I cannot compare it to another game in a way that would do it justice.

But regardless, I think an integral part of why this game is successful is because the community surrounding it are able to draw such deep opinions, comparisons, and beliefs on it. For crying out loud, it's 2am and I'm still discussing it XD I know some of the community does get heated about "Who is the best character and if you disagree then you have no taste," but I'm glad that, from the people I've discussed it with, there is actual intelligent thought put into responses.

To the contrary, I think that the horror experience of the game was secondary to the meta experience. A means to an end, essentially, and one that I don't think was handled well. My issue with the characters isn't that they aren't complex, again, Undertale's characters aren't complex and they're fine, its that they're not believable. It's very difficult to talk about them because the game is so meta. I'd like to go back to my saying that the game was trying to be too much. It tried to be a horror in its second act, but a meta story in its overall story, and I think that going as far down the horror route as it did detracted from the overall point of the game. If it had spent the time it did trying to spook me actually building its core narrative, I think I'd feel a lot for fondly for it. Instead the point of the whole second act is basically "Wow. Monika sure did some fucked shit, huh?". I do agree that the endings are satisfying enough, but not about the pacing of the game.

Thus my saying that the game needed longer in the oven. That or it should have tried to be less, instead of overloading itself only to not have enough fuel to get to the stars it was aiming for.

 

[cojemo]

Jumping into this, without touching on everything that has been mentioned, I'd have to agree with Bandit and say I believe this game is not nearly as good as many people say. There have been plenty of games that have done what Doki has done but way better and with more polish, and I think that the anime style of story telling it employs is what helped it gain so much popularity despite being flawed/

I won't go super in depth into my thoughts, as 1) a lot has already been said, and 2) I just don't have the mental space currently to focus enough to write that much, but I'll go over some things.

I'll start by saying I don't think the game is terrible. It has good ideas, and does a decent job of developing an atmosphere that is both creepy and mysterious at times. Meta-narratives are always fun. However, I think it lacks the finesse that other games that have done similar ideas contain. Undertale does this by not being so in-your-face about it and containing a certain level of cleverness, and when it DOES go over the top with the meta it revels in it. However, above all it doesn't rely completely on this, and makes characters that are both deep and fun, with a story that stands on its own. Pony Island is another example of a meta narrative done well, but on the opposite side of the spectrum. This game is all about being meta, and sticks to its guns all the way through. It does unique things with this that I will not spoil and keeps you invested by making you want to see what it does next, and really helped push this trend we see.

There are many faults present in Doki Doki. The game is extremely slow at the start and is a slog to push through, the characters are such cutouts that it hurt me to interact with them, which in turn hurts the story once things finally start going. One of my biggest problems with the game though, and where it fails to match any of the example I mentioned before, is that it isn't clever. Instead of presenting these ideas in ways that seem intriguing, Doki Doki is so in-your-face with its shock value and meta-ness that it seems like its trying too hard. I've noticed this as I've looked more and more into the anime community, but for some reason sudden shocks and tonal shifts enamor a large portion of them, which is why I believe this game was so successful. The game spent a large portion of its time simply trying to shock you in ways that involved simply shoving it all in your face, and neglected trying to build its story in a clever way. Hell, I really dislike the whole 'reveal' scene, as it's a literal monologue explaining everything. As much as I love the MGS series which is a huge sinner of this, simply explaining what's going on is not good writing. If instead of going for the shock horror method it went for a slower building mystery with horror elements I think it could've been much better, but at the same time as I said before the shock is likely why it's been so popular.

So yeah. Not the best written rant as I don't have my usual writing talent in me, and hopefully it's not hard to follow, but that's my personal thoughts. I do enjoy the ideas it presents, and I think Sayori is a decent character, but the tropes it employs along with the less than subtle story turns me off of it. Due to it being an anime game and looking like a typical VN is why I believe this game did so well, and for me being shocking isn't enough.

 

[KyroMontresor]

To be honest, the thing that made me the most uneasy about the entirety of the game is that, in the beginning, it gave you control over several parts of the game, only to strip those parts away as soon as things started to go downhill. The poetry aspect was integral in the first act, but then became pointless in the second. The choices that were repeated from the first act lost their meaning. It took a story about a player's choices, once again drawing from the harem-visual novel cliches, and made them meaningless, defenseless, unable to truly choose anything. Even deleting Monika isn't a choice, it's necessary to complete the game. If there's one thing that frightens people, it's to strip them of their influence. Afterward, the story's current takes them deeper into the unknown. The meta-ness adds to this in a degree, as it gives a feeling of uncertainty, as though anything could happen. But it also takes away from the horror by having the meta-ness go to its most extreme: removing the game and trapping the player (i.e. with Monika.) Since there is nothing left in the game, there's nothing left to be afraid of.

I do think the part where Monika essentially traps you came out of nowhere. If more time was put into the game, it would have made the experience less... Jarring, you could say.

 

[The One Eyed Bandit]

The poetry aspect was integral in the first act, but then became pointless in the second.

I think this is actually a nice observation. An extra point in the meta's direction.

The choices that were repeated from the first act lost their meaning. It took a story about a player's choices, once again drawing from the harem-visual novel cliches, and made them meaningless, defenseless, unable to truly choose anything

Personally I think this really gives the game a crisis of identity. At its core I think the story is supposed to be about inevitability, but the visual novel- a medium literally defined by choice based story telling- is the wrong place to tell it, and it only makes it come off as shallow and dismissing the whole genre. That'd be the meta narrative. The horror narrative would be about the flaws of dating sim characters, I suppose, and how the genre exploits archetypes. But again, I think that's dismissing the genre unfairly, not making a particularly impactful point in calling out the bad parts of it, and just deconstructing the genre without using the bricks to build anything new. Personally I wasn't ever really even scared by the game, but horror is subjective and I went through a lot of similarly presented horror media when I was younger, so I don't really hold that against it.

There are many faults present in Doki Doki. The game is extremely slow at the start and is a slog to push through, the characters are such cutouts that it hurt me to interact with them, which in turn hurts the story once things finally start going. One of my biggest problems with the game though, and where it fails to match any of the example I mentioned before, is that it isn't clever. Instead of presenting these ideas in ways that seem intriguing, Doki Doki is so in-your-face with its shock value and meta-ness that it seems like its trying too hard. I've noticed this as I've looked more and more into the anime community, but for some reason sudden shocks and tonal shifts enamor a large portion of them, which is why I believe this game was so successful. The game spent a large portion of its time simply trying to shock you in ways that involved simply shoving it all in your face, and neglected trying to build its story in a clever way. Hell, I really dislike the whole 'reveal' scene, as it's a literal monologue explaining everything. As much as I love the MGS series which is a huge sinner of this, simply explaining what's going on is not good writing. If instead of going for the shock horror method it went for a slower building mystery with horror elements I think it could've been much better, but at the same time as I said before the shock is likely why it's been so popular.

Pretty on point here. I'd only add that the issues of the shallow characters are only as big an issue as they are because the whole first act of the game is trying to endear you to them, and the second act is trying to disturb you by fucking with them. The game is split into three very distinct parts, and none of them are strong enough on their own to build one cohesive whole.

 

[StoneWolf18]

Disclaimer: I haven’t read any of the other replies but I just felt like adding my two cents. I’m pretty sure most of what I’m about to say as already been stated but I really felt like replying/ranting. Spoiler Warning

Spoiler

This game reminds me of any other shitty horror game that relies solely on jump scares. That isn’t horror, that is a cop-out because you aren’t creative enough to instill real fear ala Amnesia: A Dark Descent.

The beginning of the game was boring as all hell. I found myself skimming and clicking and just wishing for it to end before I gourged my own eyes out. This lasts 3-4 hours even if you’re barely reading and falling asleep like I did. Yeah I suppose it was a chance to connect and get to know the characters, but you couldn’t because there was absoutely nothing there.

Then shit finally hits the fan, and I was honestly relieved in a ‘thank god things are finally happening’ kinda way. They were predictable until it bitch slaps you right in the face with death with a side of virus and shitty foreshadowing.

I didn’t even need to open the click bait-y files to know what was in store (sorry for those who fell for that...) so I just kinda sat there at around 12 AM really wondering who the hell would in invest their time into this.

Seeing as I knew what was coming next I simply had the ending explained to me... which only reinforces what I said above.

Honestly I’m disappointed. This could’ve been done so much better IF the creator didn’t simply try to throw some sick fantasy together with some pretty art in Ren’py and just tossed some awful shit in the beginning to compensate for how short it would’ve been without it.

So, if I were to, for SOME REASON make this myself, there would be a bit more thought going into the such as:

• An actual protagonist - I get that it required the player to be the protagonist, but I feel the shock at the end would’ve been greater if, say, Monika then killed the protagonist to be with the reader.
• Original (or less cliche) plot - The vibe was unsuspecting from the beginning so it was obvious something was going to go wrong. Yeah then being in this club got the characters together for Monika to exploit, but I’m sure there are other ways to do it much better.
• Characters - Oh boy there a lot I want to say for this one...
  • Less of - There were three that could be interacted with, I feel this would need to be lowered to AT LEAST two, as at times I felt the the third not even present or a big deal in the over all story.
  • Depth - Any number of role players and writers could make better characters. Give me a reason to connect to them aside from being there or my supposed best friend.
  • Archetypes - Okay, it’s a VN, I get it, but these CAN be avoided and should be, or at the least be extremely subtle.
  • Kirito 2.0 - Essentially all of the characters fell for the protagonist, which was really meh.
• Horror Elements - This could’ve been done worlds better. I’m thinking much more build up, less slog in the beginning. Let the protagonist feel as if they’re making some type of actual progress. There also needs to be a bit more reasoning, in my opinion, for the deaths aside from Monika just being a yandere.

TL; DR - Disappointed cause shock factor was relied on too heavily, meaning there was little substance elsewhere.

 

[Awakening AKIRA]

I loved this game but then again I am weak to gore/horror and also meta shit soooo suited me just swell

 

[Idea]

OMG THE GAME IS WAY WAY DEEPER THAN I THOUGHT!
even more than any of you likely know...

Ya gotta watch this:

 

[StoneWolf18]

OMG THE GAME IS WAY WAY DEEPER THAN I THOUGHT!
even more than any of you likely know...

Ya gotta watch this:

I RETRACT EVERYTHING I SAID.

This is just...

Holy shit.

 

[Idea]

I RETRACT EVERYTHING I SAID.

This is just...

Holy shit.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[platinum]

I RETRACT EVERYTHING I SAID.

This is just...

Holy shit.

yep ahaha, i was just about to say. it's way, way more deep than many think it to be on the surface, and it takes a helluva lot of digging. it's worth it, though; some of the mysteries you can uncover are just amazing.
it really makes you wonder if there are games out there we never even bothered to check before, with similar hidden puzzles and codes that need cracking.

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Holy hell, I didn't even realize this game was an ARG!

One thing about the game theory, though:

Spoiler

The opening of the third eye obviously isn't referring to bloodlust, but to the character realizing that they aren't real and that they exist only as a file in a video game. That they only exist for someone else's temporary pleasure, someone they can't even see because they exist on a different plane of reality.

I imagine it's that truth that drives Monika over the edge.

Edit: Shit, I just realized this game wants you to think of even more disturbing implications:

Spoiler

What if every character in every dating sim you've played actually had their own autonomy, and you basically lied to them about who you were and manipulated them into loving "you?" Fuck, how do you know that you're not a character in a dating sim, and the person you think you love is really some asshole on the other side of the screen???!...Okay, I really need to take a break from the internet now.

 

[youngkyun]

I just finished this game with my best friend. She had liked the game for awhile so I agreed to play and now I think it's one of my favorite games. I was a bit bored at the beginning but then everything went crazy, and the game really pulled me in.


my bb sayori didn't deserve this

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Oh...my...God.

I just thought of something else. At one point in the game, Yuri mentions a line about the book she's reading, the (fictional) Portrait of Markov,

Spoiler

where people in a human experimentation camp are dismembered and attached to...something. She gets cut off, but I am almost 100% sure she was going to say a machine.

There's a popular theory in philosophy called the "brain in a vat," a thought experiment where a brain, isolated in a vat and suspended in liquid, is fed electrical impulses that mimic the sense of sight, sound, touch, etc. There is no way the brain can tell that it has no body, because it can't perceive reality, or at least the real reality of it being a brain in a vat. I think you know where I'm going with this.

Sidenote: Yuri also mentions something about the experiment being part of some sort of breeding program. Maybe that has something to do with this being a dating sim. Gross.

 

[KyroMontresor]

Sidenote: Yuri also mentions something about the experiment being part of some sort of breeding program. Maybe that has something to do with this being a dating sim. Gross.[/spoiler]

Spoilers: If that's the case, that seriously adds to the meta-ness of the game, just adding significance to the role of the player. That means you didn't just come across the game, the game somehow made its way to you. But if that's the case, why put Monika in the game at all, running the risk of the program being a failure? Unless Monika falling in love with you was what it was meant for all along...

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Spoiler

If that's the case, that seriously adds to the meta-ness of the game, just adding significance to the role of the player. That means you didn't just come across the game, the game somehow made its way to you. But if that's the case, why put Monika in the game at all, running the risk of the program being a failure? Unless Monika falling in love with you was what it was meant for all along...

Yeah, if the rest happened to be true, I don't know the significance of that part.

Spoiler

Maybe there's a saboteur? XD
But that doesn't really explain why they were experimenting with the "third eye." Hmm...

Edit: I just realized I'm not drunk enough to think about the logistics of

Spoiler

brain-in-a-vat sexytimes.

I'm getting another glass of wine.

 

[The One Eyed Bandit]

OMG THE GAME IS WAY WAY DEEPER THAN I THOUGHT!
even more than any of you likely know...

Ya gotta watch this:

Personally I remain unconvinced. Monika's "I'll be a hero!" note is cool, but the ARG going slightly deeper doesn't help Act 1 and 2 of the game. I wish the thing was just about its meta elements and didn't waste its time trying to be literally Creepypasta Wiki. I'll play the sequel game, because I'd like it to be good, but even as a teaser I think Doki Doki is pretty flawed.

​

Time to leave this thread and stop raining on everyone's parade, though. Have fun. If anything I'm jealous that I'm not in on the latest big thing.

 

[StoneWolf18]

Spoilers: If that's the case, that seriously adds to the meta-ness of the game, just adding significance to the role of the player. That means you didn't just come across the game, the game somehow made its way to you. But if that's the case, why put Monika in the game at all, running the risk of the program being a failure? Unless Monika falling in love with you was what it was meant for all along...

Wellllll....

Spoiler

Going off of Saccharine Cyanide said with the breeding program being a reason for it being a dating sim... Monika could’ve been forced to try and ‘breed’ with the player as they are an actual human being and not an AI. And once she failed, Sayori was forced to do it in her place.

Nothings better than the smell of theories in the morning~ x3

 

[StoneWolf18]

Personally I remain unconvinced. Monika's "I'll be a hero!" note is cool, but the ARG going slightly deeper doesn't help Act 1 and 2 of the game. I wish the thing was just about its meta elements and didn't waste its time trying to be literally Creepypasta Wiki. I'll play the sequel game, because I'd like it to be good, but even as a teaser I think Doki Doki is pretty flawed.

View attachment 378497​

Time to leave this thread and stop raining on everyone's parade, though. Have fun. If anything I'm jealous that I'm not in on the latest big thing.

Hey, let’s say we’re all completely wrong about everything and the game IS as shallow as I previously thought. We can still have fun making guesses and playing along, right?

 

[Saccharine Cyanide]

Personally I remain unconvinced. Monika's "I'll be a hero!" note is cool, but the ARG going slightly deeper doesn't help Act 1 and 2 of the game. I wish the thing was just about its meta elements and didn't waste its time trying to be literally Creepypasta Wiki. I'll play the sequel game, because I'd like it to be good, but even as a teaser I think Doki Doki is pretty flawed.

View attachment 378497​

Time to leave this thread and stop raining on everyone's parade, though. Have fun. If anything I'm jealous that I'm not in on the latest big thing.

FWIW...

Spoiler

I like the game and i like theorizing, but I do think the criticisms of it having flat characters, a shallow story and its overreliance on shock and gore are pretty valid. My only arguments would be, "Well, they're supposed to be like that because it's a satire of other dating sims," or "It was only made by one person and it's free," but those aren't good enough excuses for me. Here's hoping the dev hires a writer for the next one. : P

 

[Idea]

If I may put my two cents on some of the criticisms, I wouldn't call these characters flat at all. The characters have everything you need for a fully-developed characters: A variety of character traits, reasons that explain them, and several layers of intentions, tastes, quirks and personality elements, their designs and backstories are about as big as they could be within what's reasonable (this is, accounting for the size of the game and the pertinence of such backstory), and this is all on top of the aforementioned fact that they didn't even need to have all of that- they could very easily have actual cardboard cut-outs with no depth whatsoever and that would still be within the point of the game they were trying to make. They are, I grant you, somewhat generic and I get that can be a turn-off, though it's it's also a terrible reason to call them flat or insinuate they are any worse for it, in fact given what they were made to be, being recognizable as generic is a bonus.

As for the shock factor thing, it's true that the horror elements were pretty reliant on that, but I don't think the game was trying to scare you, at least as a primary goal. The goal of this game, as it appears to me, was commentary. The horror elements were prettt basic but their point was just to make a dissonance. It's a simple plan really: the first part of the game makes even the most skeptical lower their guard a bit, take the threat less seriously as they experience very generic VN content, until THAT event occurs which introduces the meta and horror elements into the game. At that point the game shows the foolishness of the player in being tricked and treating this like a normal game, and in part 3 the game goes full meta and forces the player to confront what they do in these particular games. And that confrontation is what makes the game so special- yet at that point the horror itself is a spec of dust compared to other elements that attempt to provoke a deeper relation with the game

 

[youngkyun]

I guess I'll just "hang" while you guys talk about the characters.

im sorry was it too early

 

[KyroMontresor]

Reviving a quiet thread because I think about this game too much:

SPOILERS AHEAD

So I've been thinking a lot about Monika, just what she is, how she works, etc. Because this game is a dating simulator, it seems as though all of the characters are destined to fall in love with the main character regardless. Sayori falls in love with you, as does Yuri and Natsuki, all characters that you can act on. Strangely, Monika, who knows the nature of the game, can't stop herself from falling in love with you at all. In fact, she doesn't even seem to question it. She is subject to the same overarching force that drives all of the characters to fall in love with you.

More importantly, the fact that she follows in the footsteps of the rest of the characters, at least in terms of falling in love with you, the protagonist. The game seems to indicate that she was supposed to have her own arc. So why doesn't she? The game often hints at how the main character you play as could see Monika as a potential love interest, evident by the parts of the game where your character thinks about the four girls. Whenever considering love interests, Monika is always included. So why can't you choose her?

I've watched those theory videos posted here on the forums as well as done a little research on my own, but I theorize this game isn't just introducing the characters, nor is it supposed to follow the character you play as. Instead, I think this game is about Monika. A test, you could say, though I could only guess what the ones responsible for administering it could be hoping to find. Perhaps they wanted to see how Monika reacted in a position of absolute power, where something she desperately wanted dangled out of her reach. To see how she would act in her desperation. This would explain how each character's personality could be "toyed with," despite this being a dating simulator and the characters not actually relying on AI. Monika has a missing story branch because it was taken out.

And, as the results become clear, you as the player are tasked with deleting her and moving onto testing the next character, Sayori. Sayori becomes self-aware, but we aren't brought far enough into the story to see if her arc would have been removed as well. I also think Monika was actually intended to return at the end, present for Sayori's reign as club president, but she simply refused to attend. So she hid herself, only deleting the game as she watched it fall apart.

These are just random thoughts I had and wanted to share 'em.

 

[Elowyn]

Ok, so I don't mind spoilers, but I don't get how it's disturbing.

Is it the potential suicide? (I only watched markiplier play it... like the first few parts)
And first of all, the skirts are unrealistically floofy. Ridiculous.

 

[Angelina_Kookie]

Because of Doki Doki Literature Club I am currently planning out a visual novel of my own with a few friends of mine. I loved how disturbing and dark it was, breaking a line nobody dared to really pass with Visual Novels. It was new and innovative, fresh and inspiring. I loved that game so much, though I have it, I never put any time into it, except watching Gamer Grumps play it.