Alexandra
The black-eyed cousin
That's looking really good, Wolf; excellent for galaxy builders 
Cartography in RPGs
- Thread starter Wolf Rawrrr
- Start date
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
Thanks! *howl*
I am thinking about developing a database that would allow quick system creation from scratch using predefined objects.
I am thinking about developing a database that would allow quick system creation from scratch using predefined objects.
That could be a nifty thing.
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
*bump because this thread is too important to leave sunken*
Strude
The Voyeur
CRITIQUE FOR THE FIRST MAP IN THE FIRST POST.
Overall you did well you can read the text, you can identify most objects and land variation
(from greenland to flatland). The quality of the work isn't that bad either, you can see a clear
effort was made on the digital end of the process.
Thing I would suggest tweaking.
- Any text with the "white fluffy" background. Change the text from black to white to make it
readable and fluid. The fluffy fuzzy background removes from it's readability.
- I can not identify the trees. I can clearly tell what are mountains, the line work is defined and
colour. The trees are not defined, they blend with the rest of the green and are very hard to see
(they look most like smudges than they do trees). So simply create outlines or boost the contrast
of the lines (using photoshop).
- A table of content to identify markers and colours would help. I assume "brown" is dry fields or
dirt land, but I can't know for certain. As well as "dots" I assume they're capital city markers, but I
can't be certain. So this isn't mandatory but could be helpful to the reader.
- Overall the one big thing I would suggest to do to everything is boost the contrast of the lines to
stand out better. Right now it feels a little muddy and muted and the boost in line contrast will help
with clarify and the feel.
Overall you did well you can read the text, you can identify most objects and land variation
(from greenland to flatland). The quality of the work isn't that bad either, you can see a clear
effort was made on the digital end of the process.
Thing I would suggest tweaking.
- Any text with the "white fluffy" background. Change the text from black to white to make it
readable and fluid. The fluffy fuzzy background removes from it's readability.
- I can not identify the trees. I can clearly tell what are mountains, the line work is defined and
colour. The trees are not defined, they blend with the rest of the green and are very hard to see
(they look most like smudges than they do trees). So simply create outlines or boost the contrast
of the lines (using photoshop).
- A table of content to identify markers and colours would help. I assume "brown" is dry fields or
dirt land, but I can't know for certain. As well as "dots" I assume they're capital city markers, but I
can't be certain. So this isn't mandatory but could be helpful to the reader.
- Overall the one big thing I would suggest to do to everything is boost the contrast of the lines to
stand out better. Right now it feels a little muddy and muted and the boost in line contrast will help
with clarify and the feel.
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
- I've given some text (mainly that over water or mountains) a white outer glow in order to stand out against the beckground. Thing is, I wanted all text to be either black or white; black looks better on most places so I decided for black and helped made it stand out in places where it didn't with that "white fluffy" stuff. You think it would be better to have some text in black and some in white?
- The trees suck. Horribly. The whole idea was to represent deciduous trees in light green and evergreen trees in dark green. Additionally, the deciduous ones were supposed to look more like a puff of cloud to symbolize the treetops, while the evergreen ones were drawn as triangles since a triangle is the most basic ways of depicting pines and other trees of that kind. But yeah, the first thing I noticed on your map were your trees. I wanted my trees to look more realistic and natural, and less like artificial symbols, but the whole thing ended up pretty desperately lol
- I pondered a table of contents but decided against it because everything is pretty self explanatory (and coming from a Wolf who usually feels the need to explain everything). Depicting terrain on a map is usually a vague thing... since dirt is not only where you draw it, for example, just like forests are not just in the places where you put the tree symbols. I don't see how the "dots" can confuse anyone for a second. A dot with a name next to it is clearly a settlement location, and a name without any marker represents that which it stands on or beside, like a mountain or lake.
- Boost the contrast of lines? Like all of them? I realize there's not much contrast, but this is because I drew everything by hand. The only thing I did digitally was coloring and text.
So the best part about the map are the mountains, right?
I knew it xD The one thing I left unpainted because I couldn't come up with a good way to color them :/
Now that you've pointed it out, I realize I was vaguely aware of all that but probably didn't know how exactly to fix it. I will take your improvements seriously, because I am planning a second part of the world map featuring the north of the continent. So thanks!
*bark*
- The trees suck. Horribly. The whole idea was to represent deciduous trees in light green and evergreen trees in dark green. Additionally, the deciduous ones were supposed to look more like a puff of cloud to symbolize the treetops, while the evergreen ones were drawn as triangles since a triangle is the most basic ways of depicting pines and other trees of that kind. But yeah, the first thing I noticed on your map were your trees. I wanted my trees to look more realistic and natural, and less like artificial symbols, but the whole thing ended up pretty desperately lol
- I pondered a table of contents but decided against it because everything is pretty self explanatory (and coming from a Wolf who usually feels the need to explain everything). Depicting terrain on a map is usually a vague thing... since dirt is not only where you draw it, for example, just like forests are not just in the places where you put the tree symbols. I don't see how the "dots" can confuse anyone for a second. A dot with a name next to it is clearly a settlement location, and a name without any marker represents that which it stands on or beside, like a mountain or lake.
- Boost the contrast of lines? Like all of them? I realize there's not much contrast, but this is because I drew everything by hand. The only thing I did digitally was coloring and text.
So the best part about the map are the mountains, right?
I knew it xD The one thing I left unpainted because I couldn't come up with a good way to color them :/Now that you've pointed it out, I realize I was vaguely aware of all that but probably didn't know how exactly to fix it. I will take your improvements seriously, because I am planning a second part of the world map featuring the north of the continent. So thanks!
*bark*
Strude
The Voyeur
You think it would be better to have some text in black and some in white?
Yes. It is okay to have white and black text in the same image. If you want one text colour throughout then I suggest finding a way to make the background less distracting.
Text should be the one thing that stands out most, it's the most important and requires a lot of handling to get right. The background should not overpower the text that you
need the viewer to read.
I can vaguely see the colour difference in the trees, but that doesn't excuse the fact that I can't differentiate between the two types of trees. If the aim is the represent with colour
then use only colour no symbols. Use a heavier green for thicker/condensed areas of forest and light for sparser areas. In addition make the contrast between the greens stronger
so you can tell the visual difference. You can still have gradual gradient effects where colours blend into one another, but still make the colours themselves stand out better.
I might suggest the following tool: http://colorschemedesigner.com/ in order to find a working pallet of greens.
Ah but is the dot a capital city, a town, a smaller settlement, larger settlement . . . I understand it clearly represents something, it is a marker of some kind of settlement, but I can
only assume what type of settlement it represents. As someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the land I could mistake it for small towns, rather than the large capital
cities they are meant to represent. So yes you can forgo a table of content, but it could help the viewer too (in my case it would help instead of going off assumption).
An additional note to the above . I understand the terrain colour can be everywhere, but I still don't know what "yellow" represents is it (mind my outlandish example) piss
lands? Is the brown dead grass lands or dirt or sand? Is green foresty or grassy or just summer all year round . . . or wetlands?
Using colour you either have to make clear note and strong variation in colours to show contours and variation . . . or use your symbols in tandem with colour to help visualize.
Yes, my "ten year old kid notes" image is a good example. The lines originally look like your own, faded, grey and unclear. I took the image into photoshop and:
Colour range - select out the lines (so the grey).
Then create a layer mask to get ride of the white background (as I only want the lines).
Then use a contrast/brightness adjustment and a levels adjustment to strengthen the colour of the lines.
If you wish to make those lines a different colour either use a "clipping layer" with a different colour OR use the colour balance to filter your colours to where you like it.
Oh and always do non destructive editing it will make your life easier.
If you like I can show you sometimes using a stream or make a quick video to show you some of this tools.
Not sure if you have photoshop or not. You did say you have firework, do you only have that or do you have the other adobe programs too?
UNRELATED BUT SLIGHTLY RELATED!
I really like the solar system diagrams. They're very well done. I have no nit picks there! >D
EDIT: and thanks for taking this crit well. You honestly have done a lovely job, so don't think
you buggered up you did very, very well. ^___^
Yes. It is okay to have white and black text in the same image. If you want one text colour throughout then I suggest finding a way to make the background less distracting.
Text should be the one thing that stands out most, it's the most important and requires a lot of handling to get right. The background should not overpower the text that you
need the viewer to read.
I can vaguely see the colour difference in the trees, but that doesn't excuse the fact that I can't differentiate between the two types of trees. If the aim is the represent with colour
then use only colour no symbols. Use a heavier green for thicker/condensed areas of forest and light for sparser areas. In addition make the contrast between the greens stronger
so you can tell the visual difference. You can still have gradual gradient effects where colours blend into one another, but still make the colours themselves stand out better.
I might suggest the following tool: http://colorschemedesigner.com/ in order to find a working pallet of greens.
Ah but is the dot a capital city, a town, a smaller settlement, larger settlement . . . I understand it clearly represents something, it is a marker of some kind of settlement, but I can
only assume what type of settlement it represents. As someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the land I could mistake it for small towns, rather than the large capital
cities they are meant to represent. So yes you can forgo a table of content, but it could help the viewer too (in my case it would help instead of going off assumption).
An additional note to the above . I understand the terrain colour can be everywhere, but I still don't know what "yellow" represents is it (mind my outlandish example) piss
lands? Is the brown dead grass lands or dirt or sand? Is green foresty or grassy or just summer all year round . . . or wetlands?
Using colour you either have to make clear note and strong variation in colours to show contours and variation . . . or use your symbols in tandem with colour to help visualize.
Yes, my "ten year old kid notes" image is a good example. The lines originally look like your own, faded, grey and unclear. I took the image into photoshop and:
Colour range - select out the lines (so the grey).
Then create a layer mask to get ride of the white background (as I only want the lines).
Then use a contrast/brightness adjustment and a levels adjustment to strengthen the colour of the lines.
If you wish to make those lines a different colour either use a "clipping layer" with a different colour OR use the colour balance to filter your colours to where you like it.
Oh and always do non destructive editing it will make your life easier.
If you like I can show you sometimes using a stream or make a quick video to show you some of this tools.
Not sure if you have photoshop or not. You did say you have firework, do you only have that or do you have the other adobe programs too?
UNRELATED BUT SLIGHTLY RELATED!
I really like the solar system diagrams. They're very well done. I have no nit picks there! >D
EDIT: and thanks for taking this crit well. You honestly have done a lovely job, so don't think
you buggered up you did very, very well. ^___^
Last edited by a moderator:
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
Yes, even though I tend to be on the perfectionist side and love my works, somehow at the same time I am able to take both positive and negative feedback equally well 
Though needless to say I am my own greatest critic... *bark*
Positive feedback is always nice to hear, but that's all there is to it. It's through criticism that I can potentially learn how to take something and make it better.
Thank you so much for the tips. I will definitely be trying them out when I start working on my next map, and as for your live support offer I might just take it when the time is right. It's always a ton easier to understand something when someone shows it to you Glad you like the solar systems, though of course those are several times easier to pull off than a terrain map 
Though needless to say I am my own greatest critic... *bark*Positive feedback is always nice to hear, but that's all there is to it. It's through criticism that I can potentially learn how to take something and make it better.
Thank you so much for the tips. I will definitely be trying them out when I start working on my next map, and as for your live support offer I might just take it when the time is right. It's always a ton easier to understand something when someone shows it to you
Glad you like the solar systems, though of course those are several times easier to pull off than a terrain map
Strude
The Voyeur
Well toots let me know when you'd like me to show you anything. I'm not the master but I have learned a trick or two! > w <
edit: and I bet . . . solar systems have a bit less detail in the land masses than a terrain map! >D
Oh that is an idea a terrain and a symbol map. Make two.
Then impose them if need be! >D
edit: and I bet . . . solar systems have a bit less detail in the land masses than a terrain map! >D
Oh that is an idea a terrain and a symbol map. Make two.
Then impose them if need be! >D
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
My latest failed attempt. I say failed, because even though this was clearly just a rough practice following a Gimp tutorial with custom brushes, it doesn't look like this is the way to go about this. I have also concluded I don't have much love for Gimp. So many things annoyed me, but most of all text handling. Omg.
I'm falling back to my Fireworks fortress. There's got to be a way to do create a better map there.
But for now, after googling "fantasy cartography" under images, I feel far too depressed and demotivated to try my paw at anything again for a week... Not in a million years. I'm too old *whine*
Oh right, almost forgot the picture...
I'm falling back to my Fireworks fortress. There's got to be a way to do create a better map there.
But for now, after googling "fantasy cartography" under images, I feel far too depressed and demotivated to try my paw at anything again for a week... Not in a million years. I'm too old *whine*
Oh right, almost forgot the picture...
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
After some more research, I think I will turn back to hand-drawn maps. My first map turned out ok and it was hand drawn. Really, the only problem I have with this kind of maps is that eventually I need to scan it to a PC for coloring and text, and then my hand drawn style doesn't quite match what digital processing does. I can't go to the lengths of a graphic tablet, which is most likely why those exist , but I'll try to simulate it with a mouse. Failing that I'll go back to hand drawing and then scanning. Can anyone help me to make a hand drawn map look more... clean, using Fireworks or some other program? I acquired Gimp lately and did a tutorial with it (see above lol) but I hate Gimp so far xD . Perhaps you, @Strude ?
Also I found a great step-by-step for a small island. It might not seem like much, but it deals with some of the most difficult map features: mountains, trees, and sea. I like this still and will make effort to master it and then apply to a larger scale project *bark*
, but I'll try to simulate it with a mouse. Failing that I'll go back to hand drawing and then scanning. Can anyone help me to make a hand drawn map look more... clean, using Fireworks or some other program? I acquired Gimp lately and did a tutorial with it (see above lol) but I hate Gimp so far xD . Perhaps you, @Strude ?Also I found a great step-by-step for a small island. It might not seem like much, but it deals with some of the most difficult map features: mountains, trees, and sea. I like this still and will make effort to master it and then apply to a larger scale project *bark*
Kaerri
Dannigan's Lady
Just now seeing this thread for the first time.
I actually like your first map the way it is. It's simple, things are easy to find, and gives a good sense of how things are located relative to each other. Yes, some might like the distances to be exact, but I don't see the need for it myself - if the storyteller says it'll take 10 days to get from point A to point B, I'm not going to take a ruler to his map to verify that. And if I have a question about how long it'll take to get somewhere, I just ask.
The only change I would suggest is if you could blend the gray of the mountains into whatever the surrounding color is, just to avoid sharp edges. Which is sort of the opposite of what @Strude's saying, I know, but mountains generally ease down into hills and then plains, and that suggest blurring of lines to me.
And perhaps the round trees could be a more yellow green? As it is, they don't stand out enough to make it clear what they are.
Minor point of interest:
I think when you guys say "table of contents," what you really want is a legend or key. Although in this case, unless you make it more complicated, I don't think you need one. The forests look like forests, the cities like cities, to me. And of course the mountains.
I actually like your first map the way it is. It's simple, things are easy to find, and gives a good sense of how things are located relative to each other. Yes, some might like the distances to be exact, but I don't see the need for it myself - if the storyteller says it'll take 10 days to get from point A to point B, I'm not going to take a ruler to his map to verify that. And if I have a question about how long it'll take to get somewhere, I just ask.
The only change I would suggest is if you could blend the gray of the mountains into whatever the surrounding color is, just to avoid sharp edges. Which is sort of the opposite of what @Strude's saying, I know, but mountains generally ease down into hills and then plains, and that suggest blurring of lines to me.
And perhaps the round trees could be a more yellow green? As it is, they don't stand out enough to make it clear what they are.
Minor point of interest:
I think when you guys say "table of contents," what you really want is a legend or key. Although in this case, unless you make it more complicated, I don't think you need one. The forests look like forests, the cities like cities, to me. And of course the mountains.
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
Thanks a bunch, Kaerri
As for my first map, the best part about it are the mountains and the coast - I am very happy with the general shape and outline of the continent. Though the mountains are missing the foothills, lower mounds here and there. What I am not satisfied with are the trees (let's face it they're crappy doodles, probably because I drew trees instead of drawing a forest if you get me ) and the terrain. I guess I was trying to specify different biomes with the dark/light green and brown, but it didn't turn out well. Next map will definitely be better *bark*
I might as well bring up the rough draft of a map that I just made yesterday for one of Grey's games that I'm in. I did this one entirely digitally for a change, in Fireworks (hate away, I don't care ). It's not complete because the world is not complete yet, so I only drew what little I knew. It's missing the trees and the shoreline/sea effects, which I am still experimenting with.
As for my first map, the best part about it are the mountains and the coast - I am very happy with the general shape and outline of the continent. Though the mountains are missing the foothills, lower mounds here and there. What I am not satisfied with are the trees (let's face it they're crappy doodles, probably because I drew trees instead of drawing a forest if you get me
) and the terrain. I guess I was trying to specify different biomes with the dark/light green and brown, but it didn't turn out well. Next map will definitely be better *bark*I might as well bring up the rough draft of a map that I just made yesterday for one of Grey's games that I'm in. I did this one entirely digitally for a change, in Fireworks (hate away, I don't care
). It's not complete because the world is not complete yet, so I only drew what little I knew. It's missing the trees and the shoreline/sea effects, which I am still experimenting with.
Skari-dono
Senior Member
Maps really depend on the game, in my opinion. That is, how useful they are should be relevant to the theme of the game. A horror game? Map is certainly not important, better just describe it. Adventure game with lots of travels? Yeah, I can see the usefulness of a map. For this reason, I can't give my vote one way or the other.
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
[QUOTE="Skari-dono]Maps really depend on the game, in my opinion. That is, how useful they are should be relevant to the theme of the game. A horror game? Map is certainly not important, better just describe it. Adventure game with lots of travels? Yeah, I can see the usefulness of a map. For this reason, I can't give my vote one way or the other.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, what you've just said falls under the third option:
"Maps look nice and probably come in handy at times, but aren't really all that needed."
Emphasis on the "at times" part. This basically means it depends on the game
Come on, you didn't actually think an experienced Wolf such as myself would forget about something as basic as this? *rawrrr*
[/QUOTE]
Actually, what you've just said falls under the third option:
"Maps look nice and probably come in handy at times, but aren't really all that needed."
Emphasis on the "at times" part. This basically means it depends on the game
Come on, you didn't actually think an experienced Wolf such as myself would forget about something as basic as this?
*rawrrr*
Skari-dono
Senior Member
Vote has been cast!
(Although putting it right in the middle did confuse me a bit )
(Although putting it right in the middle did confuse me a bit
)
Strude
The Voyeur
[QUOTE="Wolf Rawrrr]My latest failed attempt. I say failed, because even though this was clearly just a rough practice following a Gimp tutorial with custom brushes, it doesn't look like this is the way to go about this. I have also concluded I don't have much love for Gimp. So many things annoyed me, but most of all text handling. Omg.
I'm falling back to my Fireworks fortress. There's got to be a way to do create a better map there.
But for now, after googling "fantasy cartography" under images, I feel far too depressed and demotivated to try my paw at anything again for a week... Not in a million years. I'm too old *whine*
Oh right, almost forgot the picture...
[/QUOTE]
This map image, is it your new attempt?
I'm falling back to my Fireworks fortress. There's got to be a way to do create a better map there.
But for now, after googling "fantasy cartography" under images, I feel far too depressed and demotivated to try my paw at anything again for a week... Not in a million years. I'm too old *whine*
Oh right, almost forgot the picture...
[/QUOTE]
This map image, is it your new attempt?
Strude
The Voyeur
Oh and I stand by using Photoshop as your alternative to firework.
Threw together two quick raw vids of me quickly working to show
you why I'd use photoshop myself for my edits.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OupoMNZP8DA[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-zXxJJ3R8w[/media]
Threw together two quick raw vids of me quickly working to show
you why I'd use photoshop myself for my edits.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OupoMNZP8DA[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-zXxJJ3R8w[/media]
Wolf Rawrrr
Wolf-Knight
I cannot *like* this post enough times! Wow! *excited bark*
You are soooo cute adorable, really 
You went through all that effort just for old Wolf? At midnight?! Oh, you, you youuuu... Thank you so much. You've not only showed me some new things but also really inspired me to keep trying my paw at it. Both videos are really clear and you've explained the stuff well enough for even me to get it. I will definitely be getting Photoshop and having some fun playing with the stuff you showcased. Awwww I'm just so... Youuuu you you! I think you're Wolf's new cyber crush
It's been somewhat hectic for me lately, but I hope to be able to get back to you soon with something to report *howl*
You are soooo cute
adorable, really You went through all that effort just for old Wolf? At midnight?! Oh, you, you youuuu... Thank you so much. You've not only showed me some new things but also really inspired me to keep trying my paw at it. Both videos are really clear and you've explained the stuff well enough for even me to get it. I will definitely be getting Photoshop and having some fun playing with the stuff you showcased. Awwww I'm just so... Youuuu you you! I think you're Wolf's new cyber crush It's been somewhat hectic for me lately, but I hope to be able to get back to you soon with something to report
*howl*
Strude
The Voyeur
Haha, thank you and I'm glad it inspires. I can always do something a little more refined too.
Photoshop is a lot of fun and so very useful. There are so many guides to help too.
Anyway I am busy myself! >D Off I good and I'm glad this was helpful.
Photoshop is a lot of fun and so very useful. There are so many guides to help too.
Anyway I am busy myself! >D Off I good and I'm glad this was helpful.
Strude
The Voyeur
So any new maps?
Skari-dono
Senior Member
I enjoy making maps from time to time, which is why I hate to admit I'm not really that good at it.
Strude
The Voyeur
Hey those two are looking pretty damn good. What the nuts you talking about, not being good. You shut your face.
I am liking both of those. Looking very clean and clear. What are you using?
I am liking both of those. Looking very clean and clear. What are you using?
Strude
The Voyeur
I've totally been busy with stuff. I haven't made any new maps. QQ
Captain Hesperus
Harbinger of the End Times and Apostle of Ghan
@Skari\-dono I like those maps. I've always had a soft spot for geography and geology and looking at maps prods that love. That second map I can totally see a fortress or (depending on the scale) an entire city perched on the northern peninsula west of the river delta. An immense Gormenghast-like edifice constantly resisting the assault of the elements against its monolithic basalt flanks.
Excellent.
Captain Hesperus
Excellent.
Captain Hesperus
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