Advice/Help No CS RPs?

[Archie]

This is an idea I've been toying with for a while. Has anyone ever been in one of these and how did it work out?

CS's have been a thing as long as I've been roleplaying, and I've only ever signed up for one no-CS RP that didn't last long (though not for that reason). I really think the CS is a holdover from tabletop RPGs since, come to think of it, it's not even remotely necessary for RPing, and leads to a lot of problems:

- A lot of people are "CSers" more than RPers - they make way more CSes than actual RP posts and develop a bad habit of pouring their heart and soul into a CS, then feeling overwhelmed (or underwhelmed) by the actual RP.
- CSes limit what a character can do. In long and long-ish RPs, sometimes I don't want my character to be the same character I made. I can change them through long, drawn out character development, but the other characters just know them by the CS and assume they're the same way. Sometimes it's also just convenient to be able to make up bits and pieces of a character's past as well.
- 2 things going off of this: first, characters tend to be judged in RPs by their CS and not by their actions, even when the two are very different, and second, they often are very different. A lot of people (I'm guilty as charged) make characters who don't act like they're "supposed" to in RPs, either because you realize the kind of person you created couldn't possibly function in society, because you're not naturally that kind of person (if I had a dollar for every angry badass who turned out to be a polite and respectful human being...) or because you want to keep up with the group even if your character absolutely would not do the things they're 'expected' to do.
- Finally and most importantly, no one ever asks about each other's backgrounds. When you're meeting real people, 90% of what you ask about is who they are and what their story is. Everyone in RPs - even total strangers, just knows, leaving very little to talk about and very little to be interested about.

I think #1 and #4 combined are the biggest causes of RPs that fizzle. I call it CS addiction. Everyone is excited to create their characters, excited to learn about the rest of the cast, so they find the actual RP boring. When you meet people (especially interesting people, which almost all RP characters are), the vast majority of the fun is learning about them.

What do you all think, and have you ever tried one of these?

 

[Chordling]

Hahaha, I will never get tired of saying this.

The ability to create character sheets will never speak to the player's ability to roleplay. They can be limiting, and that is why I started to think about character creation in a different way.

So, the most that I care about for myself these days is a face and a name to put to it. I don't bother to stress myself further about any of the other details, because those can always be developed later. I don't ask much from people in a group setting, either. I do provide a template, but it's not something I even require (people fill it out anyway). I'm a hard-core laze with character sheets compared to what I did back then.

But this is speaking from a text-based roleplaying perspective. Character sheets for dice roleplays are a different ball game.

 

[nerdy tangents]

As a GM I put it this way : A CS tests your personality as a player and your reading comprehension.

Are you going to be someone who tries to change the rules to suit yourself? Are you someone who doesn’t understand the lore or focus of the roleplay? Are you someone who doesn’t take constructive criticism?

I suppose you could cover those same things in a different way but it’s more streamline to stick to a CS. (At least it was when I GM’d)

 

[Owlbear]

For every problem solved by not having a CS a dozen new ones are created.

For example, knowing characters' personalities beforehand helps you craft a more engaging roleplay.

 

[Idea]

CS's have been a thing as long as I've been roleplaying, and I've only ever signed up for one no-CS RP that didn't last long (though not for that reason). I really think the CS is a holdover from tabletop RPGs since, come to think of it, it's not even remotely necessary for RPing, and leads to a lot of problems:

While they aren't strictly necessary for RPing, they are useful. I have at least heard of plenty of examples of roleplays without character sheets- any I tried I quickly grew bored of, but they do tackle a style of writing and roleplay that I dislike to begin with, so I'm more inclined to think it's a "not my cup of tea" thing rather than CSs being a vital component of roleplay. A roleplay without character sheets can work, and I'm willing to bet some went pretty well.

That said, I do think anyone saying CSs are a bad thing is jumping the gun. There are issues with CSs as a concept, but I've yet to encounter one that isn't either circumstantial (such as exposing information about the characters that players would rather keep hidden for suspense or more organic reveals) or more a player issue than an issue with the tool.

- A lot of people are "CSers" more than RPers - they make way more CSes than actual RP posts and develop a bad habit of pouring their heart and soul into a CS, then feeling overwhelmed (or underwhelmed) by the actual RP.

I agree, but as I mentioned above, this is a player issue not a CS issue. These are some sources this issue comes from:

1. A lot of people are just not good at managing their time. They try to start things when they know they have stuff that will keep them busy up ahead, they don't aim for good timing, and they take up way more than they can chew.
2. People have a lot of very bad expectations for RP. This touches on more things than I could even begin to mention here, and granted a lot of them have to do with poor expectations for characters that disappoint people when they are not realized, but for instance, the fact a lot of folks expect writing to be immediately gratifying like they are playing a video game or watching a movie, helps build the disappointment.
3. People have unrealistic expectations for themselves. Someone who goes into a roleplay expecting to just enjoy a roleplay with a completely different writing style than their own in the same way that they would that suits them better, will have a much harder time. On the other hand, a lot of people on RPN suffer from conditions like depression and anxiety, which lead to such issues of self-esteem that they quit or stop replying due to that (unfounded) way they see themselves.
4. A lack of self-discipline is (whether you think attempting to have it is asking too much or not) a strong element in roleplays being inconsistent in what they deliver and over time delivering less and less.

If I were to sum it up, I would say this: The problem is not that people are pouring their heart and soul into a CS. The problem is the eventual clash of expectations. Is someone putting hard work into an aspect of the RP to blame for the rest of it being disappointing? I don't think that position can hold water, when there are so many other causes for why the rest can turn into a disappointment, and none of them are linked to that extra work.

- CSes limit what a character can do. In long and long-ish RPs, sometimes I don't want my character to be the same character I made. I can change them through long, drawn out character development, but the other characters just know them by the CS and assume they're the same way. Sometimes it's also just convenient to be able to make up bits and pieces of a character's past as well.

CSs are supposed to limit what the character can do, though there is a misunderstanding in that statement still, but I'll address that in a moment. A character that has no limits on what they can do- specifically as it regards to their behavior- isn't a character. It's a puppet. An entity with no distinct individual nature moving along the whims of this external force that is not it. All characters are a bit like this to some extent, but grounding the character into some kind of established personality helps the character go from puppet to individual.

Furthermore, I would also argue that there is a temptation, when things aren't going the way you would like, to explore loopholes or do other things that could quite reasonably be called cheating in order to gain the advantage again. Combat RPs and RPs that heavily feature competition often see this issue particularly with less experienced players: In a battle of characters with superpowers, a lot of the time the other may pull a contrived excuse for why they actually beat that plan. If you've ever been in a roleplay with a mystery, and the character looks at a random object and suddenly figured out a bunch of info "with a hunch", or if a character's entire internal perspective of someone changed the moment the player OOC learned that the other character had feelings for theirs or did something nice for them in secret, you know what kind of temptation I am referring to.

Character sheets don't entirely counter this problem, but they do put a hard limit on it: At the very least, there are some things established that you need a good reason to change, that you can't just flip because they aren't written down anywhere and you really want to win this time.

Indeed though, a CS does not actually limit change. It limits inorganic change. It limits the character changing completely just because, at least if it is followed. There's many, many people who really misunderstand this: CSs do not prevent your character from changing. A CS is more like a snapshot in time. Right now your character is a certain way. In time, as new experiences come their way, those will interact with who the character is, and cause change.


In summary: The CS is limiting not because it reduces your choices, but because it asks you to actually make those decisions before you have to confront their problems. While a person may not like this- and I will address discovery writing in the next point- this is a feature of character sheets, not a flaw. They are meant to limit players to what they decided to play, thus
A) Making characters actually be characters and not mere puppets
B) Limiting the tools players have to tackle a problem
C) By doing (B), it gives other players the chance to spotlight at their own time, complementing or contrasting with other characters.

- 2 things going off of this: first, characters tend to be judged in RPs by their CS and not by their actions, even when the two are very different, and second, they often are very different. A lot of people (I'm guilty as charged) make characters who don't act like they're "supposed" to in RPs, either because you realize the kind of person you created couldn't possibly function in society, because you're not naturally that kind of person (if I had a dollar for every angry badass who turned out to be a polite and respectful human being...) or because you want to keep up with the group even if your character absolutely would not do the things they're 'expected' to do.

Again, rather than being a problem with CSs, this is more of a problem with the players. Specifically, we have
1. Players misjudging characters (be it because they didn't read the posts with enough attention, or maybe they are metagaming, etc... The existence of a rock doesn't make people throw it at someone else's face, and if the rock wasn't there, they'd throw a stick)
2. Falling into the temptation I mentioned before.
3. Bad character design, or character design that doesn't fit what the player is capable of playing. If you are unable to make your loner character keep up with the group without breaking character, you shouldn't make that loner character, unless you are just able to RP solo until you come across a good excuse.

That said, this is kind of where discovery writing comes in and wrecks the party. Because the fact is, a lot of people at the very least do think of themselves as discovery writers (AKA people who prefer to write by seeing where the story and characters take them, rather than planning how things go). Discovery writers DO work best by "discovering" how their characters are through roleplay rather than trying to build them ahead of them.

However, I find "discovery" here to be misleading. The fact is the character doesn't exist until the person comes up with them. The discovery writer is not discovering anything, they are just creating by how things feel or what things are needed at a time, rather than having a plan. This is one of those circumstantial issues: CSs don't work here not because there is an issue with there being a CS, but because the player does not actually have a solid idea of what character they are actually intending to play. A CS could still exist and be fine- but to be suited to the players it would have to be filled out over time rather than before the roleplay. The CS being mis-matched with a roleplayers does not condemn CSs as a concept, but it does I feel make a case why some roleplays might do away with them.

- Finally and most importantly, no one ever asks about each other's backgrounds. When you're meeting real people, 90% of what you ask about is who they are and what their story is. Everyone in RPs - even total strangers, just knows, leaving very little to talk about and very little to be interested about.

Again, issue with the players. If their character already knows the background even though they had no reason to, or they just start expositing about their background for no reason, the fact that the background is written down is not the cause.

Furthermore surely the characters's ability to hold conversations, or do stuff or be interesting, shouldn't be limited to their background? It's the character's current situation that should be. What they do now, what their dynamics with other characters are, and what they will do with the tools they have available to overcome the challenges in front of them. The backstory can be interesting, but it should reinforce the character, not be the cornerstone of what makes them interesting.

I think #1 and #4 combined are the biggest causes of RPs that fizzle. I call it CS addiction. Everyone is excited to create their characters, excited to learn about the rest of the cast, so they find the actual RP boring. When you meet people (especially interesting people, which almost all RP characters are), the vast majority of the fun is learning about them.

I would argue you're really jumping the gun there. Even if we accept the premise that getting to know people the majority of the fun is learning about them, there's still stuff not in the CS that the CS helps build. Seeing the CS in action in the actual roleplay for instance, or putting the character in different circumstances or interacting with different characters, and seeing what kind of dynamics and situations result from that.

Furthermore, again even if we accept the premise above, people being excited about their characters and in those times when people actually ARE interested in learning about the rest of the cast (and lets face it, in reality people are just a lot more interested in their own characters as a general rule) then that itself is not the problem, the problem is that they don't follow up the rest of the roleplay with that level of dedication.

With that said, I don't think the premise holds much water either. Getting to know the new people you meet is fun of course, but watching where they go from there, and doing what you do together, is also something that should be fun.

From my experience, the biggest cause of RP failure is absence, usually due to IRL matters (from being busy, to family tragedies to issues like anxiety and depression), and a lack of communication (there is a direct correlation between more active OOCs and roleplays lasting longer).

What do you all think, and have you ever tried one of these?

In the end of the day, I think an RP without CSs can work, especially if it's oriented more towards heavy discovery writers. At the same time, however, I feel you are blaming CSs for a lot of issues they are more victim of than perpetrator.

Edit: Also yes, I did try a couple a long time ago, I quickly grew bored of it and a bit anxious due to total lack of information or strong characterization.

 

[Syntra]

I have to say, I'm with you. I hate, hate, hate CS with a burning passion, and the fact that so many GMs require them is one of the reasons why I don't really do group roleplays. It's just not fun to me to write about a character, you know? Especially when I know my application is going to act as some sort of entrance exam-- that's a perfect trigger for my OCD, and I just know that I'd spend hours trying to get it just right while being absolutely miserable 100% of the time.

So, yeah, I pretty much only do CS-less rps. That doesn't mean my characters aren't thought out, though! I just keep all the info in my mind. It works just fine for me, too, as most of my rps have been long-term and active, to the point that I write multiple posts each day.

I will concede that group rps are different to 1x1 settings, though, and that some things probably should be established beforehand. That being said, I kinda think it's silly that a lot of GMs treat CS as this grand dissertation thesis-- I absolutely do think that some people enjoy writing CS more than actually rping, at least judging by their track record. Tbh, I think that looking at one's posting history is a much more reliable way of determining whether they'll stick with a rp, whether their style works for you, etc. etc. etc.

 

[KannaChan]

I do enjoy using CSs just so I can get a basic feel and understanding of my own character so they won't end up all over the place, but I can't stand those CSs where they give 6+ pages worth of detail and it takes me about an hour just to read through everything. Then, if I can't remember one little extra detail about a character's appearance or habit that's supposed to be known to all, my partner gets on my case about it.