!Need Feedback! Creating Stat System.

[Stickdom]

So I'm creating a stat system for an RP that I'm running, I want it to be comprehensively minimal so players don't have to memorize a mountain of stats or roll random dice and calculate their odds. I have the basis for the system and want some input from more experienced players to see how well it sounds like it would work, since I have very little experience with actual tabletop systems other than pathfinder, which I'm only passingly familiar with. 


The basis for this stat system is a fantasy world, so the stats have to cover everything from weaponry to magic to lockpicking to baking bread, all the while remaining relatively minimalist. The idea I had was having generic stat "pools" that players can spend their on their actions, each pool being filled with their comprehension of that stat. The stats themselves are pretty typical of an rpg, but so far these are the stats I have and what they vaguely relate to in a more typical tabletop RPG (though there will be some differences:

Spoiler

• Might (Strength) ~ The go-to muscle stat, from lifting weights to swinging swords to pushing boulders (more on that later). Pretty self-explanatory, though some more obscure uses are climbing, swimming, and (for mages) sustaining more powerful spells. 
  
• Finesse (Dexterity) ~ The stat of fine motor skills and acrobatics. Athletically useful for moving quickly, jumping, and dodging, while technically used to pick pockets and locks, perform delicate surgery, or accurately wielding bows and throwing items. 
  
• Vitality (Constitution) ~ The measure of one's stamina, and resistance. While Might dictates how much one can lift, push, or swing, Vitality dictates for how long. Also one's natural defense, able to take a hit or spell, or recover from illness and toxins.
  
• Knowledge (Intelligence) ~ Stat that defines thought processes and logical power. Used to solve puzzles, notice hidden secrets, and gather information. Key stat for scholars, but also useful for learning battle techniques or understanding political happenings.
  
• Insight (Wisdom) ~ The capability to understand things unseen. Primary stat for wizards to comprehend cryptic tomes and master spells, but also a measure of one's intuition and contributes to mental acuity and reflexes. 
  
• Wits (Charisma) ~ The stat of guile and manipulation, politicians and bards both have sharp tongues. The ability to engage in intellectual conversations or to form ideas in no time at all, of misdirection and disguises, but also of leadership and invention.
  
• Artistry (Crafting) ~ One's measure of creative talent through art, cooking, engineering, or alchemy. With practice, one gains specialties relating to their talent, either advancing a single skill to complete mastery, or diverging into multiple crafts to a lesser extent.
  
• Luck (Fate) ~ A meta-stat, this is the measure of one seizing opportunities and taking risky chances. Much rarer to develop than other stats, this grants temporary bonuses to any of the others to further ensure chances of success.
  

Those are the stats in a nutshell, now for their actual applications. Each character gains these stats from their race, class, and experiences, which totals up to their pools for each stat. I am currently considering a 10-point spectrum, with 0 being nonexistent and 10 being the level of an all-powerful deity (which is conceivably possible in this setting). It's a scaling spectrum, so each next level will be exponentially harder to obtain than the last. The descriptions of each value are in relation to an average human, while the examples given are beings that can function capably at those levels. Note that each description spans all stats at that level, and not all characters with a stat in that category will be able to achieve all of the features noted at once:

Spoiler

      0. The equivalent of non-existent. Any stat permanently lowered to this level renders the character comatose, and more than one renders the character deceased. Ex: ghost (physical 0). zombie (mental 0).  

1.  Barest functionality possible. Physical stats at this level mean the body is essentially immobile or capable of only basic movement. Incapable of intelligent thought, guided by sheer instinct. Ex: slug. worm.
   
2. Requires significant effort to move or think. Weak, unable to lift its own weight or move at any great speed. Mentally relies on more capable instinct to govern actions. Ex: bird. mouse.
   
3. Capable of motor function and basic thought processes. Can withstand pulling slightly less than its own weight. Mentally capable of understanding language and communication on a primitive level. Ex: toddler. dog.
   
4. The average of a human adult. Can easily lift its own weight and purposefully move with direction and speed. Mentally comprehends languages and develops complex thoughts into ideas. First signs of magical capabilities. Ex: human adult. 
   
5. Above average. The level at which significant traits develop. Strong enough to move objects heavier than oneself at reduced speed. Intelligent enough to engage in daily politics and perform basic magic. Ex: soldier. apprentice mage.
   
6. Specialized. Traits become individualized and perfected. Capable of lifting objects larger than oneself at normal speeds. Able to comprehend philosophy, participate in national politics, or cast mid-level spells. Ex: elite soldier. priest. mayor.
   
7. Absolute mastery, the epitome of human achievement in that area. Reaches human limits of strength or stamina. Influential to the point of creating and sustaining economies. Able to universally write or cast nearly any spell Ex: king. wizard.  
   
8. Superhuman. Outside of the realm of mere human capability. Such strength is reserved for those magically blessed or naturally gifted. Intelligence surpassing sage status. Not only able to cast spells, but create new ones. Ex: giant. eldritch sorceror.
   
9. Supernatural extending outside of natural order and law. Strength to shape terrain on a whim or blessed with near-infinite stamina. Incomprehensible intellect that creates thoughts of concepts beyond understanding. Ex: Ancients. First Chosen
   
10. Omnipotent. Creates, shapes, and destroys worlds at will. Capable of anything imaginable, strength unmeasured, thoughts incomprehensible, magic unlimited. Ex: Aeons.
    

So, that's the scale of stats which each character will be able to distribute among their stats. I'll continue this discussion with an example character sheet shortly, but I'd like to get some input on the stats and scale themselves first.

 

[Chordling]

This looks really fun, so far.  I'm not very versed with stat systems so I'll wait until you post a CS example to see how everything looks.

 

[_Line 213]

What's your conflict resolution method for this? I'm more worried about that than a stat / skill listing.

 

[Stickdom]

This looks really fun, so far.  I'm not very versed with stat systems so I'll wait until you post a CS example to see how everything looks.

On the way :3

What's your conflict resolution method for this? I'm more worried about that than a stat / skill listing.

Glad you asked, hopefully it'll make sense why I laid out the stat and scales first before getting to that bit.


So, let's start with a couple example character sheets, we'll call this first one Richard. First the player needs to pick a race, for this we'll go with a human. As stated above in the scale, 4 is the human average and we'll say that Richard has had an average life, nothing that warrants extra bonus stats.


~Richard~

Spoiler

• Might ~ 4
  
• Finesse ~ 4 
  
• Vitality ~ 4 
  
• Knowledge ~4
  
• Insight ~ 4
  
• Wits ~ 4
  
• Artistry ~ 4
  
• Luck ~ 2 (We'll explain this difference later)
  

So there we have Richard's basic stats as a human, now we'll give him a class. Let's say Richard is training to be a Knight, so he gets the bonuses and penalties of being a knight.


(For the sake of examples, these are stereotypically random, I haven't created truly balanced classes yet):

Spoiler

Knight Class:


~Might +1


~Vitality +1


~Insight -1


~Artistry -1

Which brings us to the total of his stats: 

• Might ~ 5
  
• Finesse ~ 4 
  
• Vitality ~ 5
  
• Knowledge ~4
  
• Insight ~ 3
  
• Wits ~ 4
  
• Artistry ~ 3
  
• Luck ~ 2
  

I kept these out of spoilers so as not to lose them among the text, these are really the numbers that matter.


Now, Richard comes across a boulder, and the GM rates the difficulty of moving it as 5 Might. Richard's in luck, he has 5 Might total, so he spends those 5 points and moves the boulder in the manner he sees best, pushing, rolling, whatever. The scenario is mostly up to GM discretion, if Richard wants to lift the boulder over his head and throw it, that challenge might be rated at 6 Might. If he just wants to roll it and get it moving on its own, that might take a little less and is rated at 4 Might. Obviously, since he only has 5 Might, he can't throw it, but he can roll it with 1 Might to spare. This concept applies in any situation where the character runs across a challenge set up by the GM, it simply has a difficulty rating and the character spends the points as they see fit. Each round, i.e. whenever it comes back around to them in the posting order, they gain points back to spend. (For balancing purposes, I don't think I want them to be fully restored each round, I'd like to think of some fraction of the points missing that they gain back each time, that way they have a reason to rest in between posts and don't take up too much "action time". If they keep spending all of their points each round, they'll wear out eventually. I'm open to balancing suggestions from more experienced RPers.) This applies to the other stats too, like spending Knowledge points to read complex tomes or Wits points to bluff the politician into thinking you know what you're talking about. Sometimes the difficulty is kept hidden from the player, like in the instance of the politician, where the player wouldn't know how much charm to lay on them to convince them. Other times there could be a hidden cap to the difficulty, where spending too many points is a bad move, like putting too many Strength points into opening a stuck door and just breaking it off the hinges.


Anyways, that's for Player vs. Environment resolution, typically left up to the GM to decide the effectiveness, but pretty lenient towards the characters' actions if they get creative enough. But how about Player vs. Player conflicts? SImple, the same concept is in effect, just the players themselves set the difficulties. Let's give Richard a sparring partner. We'll call him Keith. Keith is pretty mush the same as Richard, standard human with standard life, so his stats all start at 4s too. But Keith isn't a knight, instead he's a rogue. Let's craft up a Rogue real fast.

Spoiler

Rogue Class:


~Finesse +1


~Wits +1


~Might -1


~Vitality -1

So, that leaves Keith with:

• Might ~ 3
  
• Finesse ~ 5 
  
• Vitality ~ 3 
  
• Knowledge~ 4
  
• Insight ~ 4
  
• Wits ~ 5
  
• Artistry ~ 4
  
• Luck ~ 2
  

So now they decide to spar with identical swords. Weapons will get their own stats and features like extra attacks or specific requirements, but for now let's assume it's just a simple wooden practice sword that anyone can use.

Spoiler

Richard attacks first, he decides he wants to put 4 Might into his attack, he'll save that last point for "just in case". Now it's assumed that if Keith does nothing, the attack will hit him, but he decides he'd rather not get bludgeoned for free this time. So Keith has several options; he can block with his own sword at the expense of his Might, but Richard used 4 Might and Keith only has 3, he'd still get hit a bit. But, he has 5 Finesse, the stat that's used to dodge. All he has to do is match (not beat) Richard's Might in the attack, so he spends 4 Finesse and hops out of the way. Now it's Keith's turn, and he's safely dodged a bullet (or a wooden sword in this instance), and he counter attacks. He only has 3 Might, but Richard used up all of his might in his attack, so Keith is safe from a counter-attack. since his 3 beats Richard's 1. So Keith gets in a hit because Richard is still going through with his attack that missed, he can't dodge. Those 3 Might hit Richard right on and get taken off of his Vitality, which gets dropped to 2 from 5.


 From here it resets, Richard's turn again, and he gains (let's say) half of his spent points back, so he spent 4 Might and gets 2 back, up to 3. His Vitality stays where it's at because he was hit, he didn't spend them for an action. So Richard decides to wait a turn, he'll get the rest of his points back next turn and if he doesn't commit to an attack, he's free to counter Keith's. Keith, on the other hand, spent two different stats, Finesse and Might, so he's running pretty low. He gets half of them back, that's 2 Finesse and 2 Might (rounding up from half of 3). He decides that he has enough to take Richard down and gets a little tricky. Instead of attacking with Might right away, He goes for a feint using his Wits to trick Richard, he spends all 5 Wits since he knows Richard can't dodge or counter that high. Richard tries to block the feint, thinking it's a real hit, but then Keith turns it around on him and uses his last 2 Might to score the hit and take Richard's Vitality to 0 and out of the fight.

So that's the gist of combat and player vs. player conflict, this was a really simple and generic scenario, there will be more layers of depth in the RP, I'm sure. But, it can be applied to any situation just by assigning an action to a stat and spending the appropriate amount of points to cover it. If something is beyond normal human limitations, the cost will be equivalently higher. Different races will have different stats, some will be stronger and faster and magic-er(?), but they'll all have to spend the same amount for an action as any other character. The stat system isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all for the story, it's actually more of a supplement to it, giving character limitations on what they can and can't conceivably achieve. 


A concept in progress:


I'm also considering the optionality of the stat system, if two players want to have a duel between themselves totally free of the stats, they are welcome to do so as long as they are the only two affected by it. The last thing I want is numbers getting in the way of telling a good story, and if two players know their characters' boundaries well enough to play without them, so be it. However, they will be expected to implement the stats where necessary, such as when the GM calls for it or it's a matter of dispute as to whether the action they just took is feasible for their character to accomplish. I'm open to suggestions and I know there are bound to be tons of balancing issues.

 

[Stickdom]

^^^ P.S. If that even remotely doesn't make sense, ask me questions, I thrive off of dialogue about things like this, I'd be more than happy to take input into consideration and hopefully apply it to improve the setting :3

 

[_Line 213]

I would suggest looking up "Action Point" systems in pen-and-paper RPGs. People have done many homebrews like this before, so you may find something in those tinkerings you can use.


There are two things that I think are worth keeping in mind for cautionary purposes. The first is that it can become extremely easy for something like this to become horrendously unbalanced, in either the direction of the players, or the GM. My primary concern in this vein is that if not enough points are given to the players, combat can become incredibly unfun for certain builds. A rogue, for instance, might be able to dodge for days, but almost never be able to hit something, due to the "match" mechanic if their points are too low. Someone with a high enough pool to plow through most things, meanwhile, won't have nearly as much trouble. Encounters, as well as the Refresh mechanic, would have to be specifically tailored in order to allow people to get in hits, since, unlike most dice systems, there's no "threshold" which anyone has at least the potential to cross. The second is that systems like this come at the expense of disallowing things like critical hits or strategic buffing (unless painstakingly written in), so you may find that combat encounters lose a bit of their drama / strategy and instead become Zelda-style slapfights in which both teams chip away at each other's health / AP pools very very slowly.


This isn't necessarily a bad thing, merely something to keep in mind.

 

[Stickdom]

I would suggest looking up "Action Point" systems in pen-and-paper RPGs. People have done many homebrews like this before, so you may find something in those tinkerings you can use.


There are two things that I think are worth keeping in mind for cautionary purposes. The first is that it can become extremely easy for something like this to become horrendously unbalanced, in either the direction of the players, or the GM. My primary concern in this vein is that if not enough points are given to the players, combat can become incredibly unfun for certain builds. A rogue, for instance, might be able to dodge for days, but almost never be able to hit something, due to the "match" mechanic if their points are too low. Someone with a high enough pool to plow through most things, meanwhile, won't have nearly as much trouble. Encounters, as well as the Refresh mechanic, would have to be specifically tailored in order to allow people to get in hits, since, unlike most dice systems, there's no "threshold" which anyone has at least the potential to cross. The second is that systems like this come at the expense of disallowing things like critical hits or strategic buffing (unless painstakingly written in), so you may find that combat encounters lose a bit of their drama / strategy and instead become Zelda-style slapfights in which both teams chip away at each other's health / AP pools very very slowly.


This isn't necessarily a bad thing, merely something to keep in mind.

Noted, I had actually taken both into account, a topic I'll write up in due time, though I'm heading to work for the night shift, so it certainly won't be until tomorrow XD

 

[Axel The Englishman]

Question: are we going into detailed realism here where we must pick the best tool for the job (e.g. using a mace to attack armoured opponents) or are we just going to let that slide for now?

 

[Broken-Angel]

Much like Muse, I suck at the whole stat thing as well. 

 

[Stickdom]

I would suggest looking up "Action Point" systems in pen-and-paper RPGs. People have done many homebrews like this before, so you may find something in those tinkerings you can use.


There are two things that I think are worth keeping in mind for cautionary purposes. The first is that it can become extremely easy for something like this to become horrendously unbalanced, in either the direction of the players, or the GM. My primary concern in this vein is that if not enough points are given to the players, combat can become incredibly unfun for certain builds. A rogue, for instance, might be able to dodge for days, but almost never be able to hit something, due to the "match" mechanic if their points are too low. Someone with a high enough pool to plow through most things, meanwhile, won't have nearly as much trouble. Encounters, as well as the Refresh mechanic, would have to be specifically tailored in order to allow people to get in hits, since, unlike most dice systems, there's no "threshold" which anyone has at least the potential to cross. The second is that systems like this come at the expense of disallowing things like critical hits or strategic buffing (unless painstakingly written in), so you may find that combat encounters lose a bit of their drama / strategy and instead become Zelda-style slapfights in which both teams chip away at each other's health / AP pools very very slowly.


This isn't necessarily a bad thing, merely something to keep in mind.

Quoting you again to bring up talk topics. So, as you said, the pools are pretty low to make fights anything more than slap fests or just wars of attrition until someone eventually loses. So having proper equipment for the task accomplishes both problems at once, raising the pools to viable levels, and adding in the tactical/strategic aspect of combat. The example above, as I had mentioned, was only the barest bones of combat, with weapons that did nothing but prevent the characters from punching each other with their bare fists. Now let's toss in a few weapons. 


Richard, being a knight, has a standard shortsword, let's mock up some stats for it real fast.

Spoiler

Shortsword:


Requires 3 Might


Iron ~ +2 Might in combat only.

That's a pretty hefty increase to Might, hard to dodge or block when the total for one of Richard's all-out blows is 7 Might total. And the thing about weapon stats is that they don't get used up, so Richard always has at least a 2 Might reserve to use from this shortsword. Now, what about that "Requires" stat? That's not how much Might you have to have to equip it, that's how much it takes to use it. Each swing has to use at least 3 Might, meaning you have to put some effort into it or it won't be effective, and also meaning you can't save your stamina with tiny hits that mean nothing. Different weapons will require different stats, sometimes Finesse or Vitality, or even Insight and Knowledge for magical or specialty weapons. You get more power from them, but it costs more and the balance between long-term dueling or one-shot hits is up to the players to decide.


Now take, for instance, a claymore, big massive two-handed sword. Let's say it gives a massive 5 Might on your attack. It also requires a huge 7 Might just to swing the dang thing. So, with a human Might of 4 and an extra 5 from the claymore on top of that, you get 9 action points in combat to use, but each swing takes 7 just to use it. So, turn 1, the warrior swings and ends up with 2 Might at the end of his turn, using his own might first and then the weapon's Might to cover the last bit his normal 4 won't cover. His turn rolls back around and he gains his Might points back like normal, half of what he spent, which is 2. So, 2 leftover from last turn plus 2 he regained, plus 5 from the weapon adds up to 9, enough to make another swing with the sword. His personal Might goes first (-4) and the weapon covers the last bit (-3 more to get the 7 needed). He gets another hit. Now it rolls back around one last time. he gets his 2 points back that he regenerated, plus the 5 from the weapon, exactly enough to get a final swing of the sword. Every turn after that, he's only regenerating 1 Might because the max he can spend of his own is 2 to get the swing in, meaning he either has to rest to get his points back or make half-hearted swings with not enough Might, which gives some kind of penalty to the effectiveness, basically simulating fatigue and being worn out over time. 


That's just one example of a weapon, one that focuses heavily on Might. But what about Keith, our rogue friend with only a little bit of Might? How about we give him a special weapon, a dagger.

Spoiler

Dagger:


Requires 2 Finesse.


Light ~ +1 Finesse in combat.


Quick Blade ~ Can use Finesse to make multiple attacks per turn.

So, it's light, needing 1 Finesse to use per turn, and it gives +1 Finesse, so it basically covers its own cost to use. But how useful is that when Might is what's used to make attacks and Keith barely has any? That's where Finesse come into play. In Richard and Keith's first fight, Keith used his Wits to land a feint instead of spending his Might to do it. Some weapons, or even some race abilities and class skills (we haven't gotten into these yet), like the dagger here, can use other stats to make attacks instead of Might, like Finesse or Insight. So his high Finesse means he has plenty of points to use for making attacks, and the damage still comes from Might (unless the item otherwise says so). Now, it leaves his his Might unchanged, meaning each attack does average damage, no bonuses there. Let's take a closer look at that last feature on the dagger though. It doesn't weigh much, so the wielder can get in a few attacks in one turn, making up for the poor damage otherwise. Each attack costs the same amount, but each one also inflicts the same damage since it doesn't cost any Might to use it each time. So, Keith has 3 Might and 6 Finesse to use; it gives him some extra Finesse to hit with. Each turn, he can max out his damage by spending 2 Finesse per attack, meaning the first round he can get in up to 3 attacks, each doing 3 points of damage. The dagger's Finesse only covers half of one attack however, so the other 5 come from his Finesse points. He ends the turn doing 9 damage total (without being blocked or dodged), and spending all 5 Finesse total. Next turn, when he regenerates his points, he gets his 3 Finesse back plus 1 from the dagger, enough for 2 more attacks by spending all his Finesse again.


So, there's definitely a fine balance to all of the details, carefully balancing each item's abilities and making sure that someone doesn't abuse an especially good one for their character. But, in some instances, some characters will just be naturally better than others, some will be given higher stats and that's a representation of just how much better they are than the little guy. One of the beauties of having a freeform system like this is that is can be adjusted as it is used, an overpowered item can be tuned down or a special unique feature can be added to a weapon that needs some added oomph. There will be plenty of ways to overpower a character in the short term, but they also have to balance out their strengths with their weaknesses, since a great weapon can be useful for one or two hits, but then leave you open to an even worse counter-attack. This also applies to other equipment, I have plans for armour to boost vitality or shields that provide extra Might for blocking, meaning properly equipped armour can reasonably challenge a more well-armed opponent. 


Now that I look over this post, for wanting a minimalist system, this seems like a lot of detail and number-crunching, I'm trying to find a way to simplify it more, I don't want to scare off potential players by giving them a brand-new com[licated homebrew system to learn just to avoid dice. If this balancing doesn't work out by some chance, I'd rather scrap it and leave combat and challenges to player discretion and the quality of writing responses than throwing a half-baked stat system as a band-aid on it.

Question: are we going into detailed realism here where we must pick the best tool for the job (e.g. using a mace to attack armoured opponents) or are we just going to let that slide for now?

I believe this answers your question. Yes, weapons like maces would have features that gave bonuses against armour or something like rapiers would be able to find weak points if given enough accuracy, things like that. Those will all be hashed out as the items themselves are created, which I plan on doing very slowly and thoughtfully. Players are more tahn welcome to equip themselves however they wish and I can retroactively add stats and implement the system afterwards, if need be. I wouldn't mind starting off the RP as a story-based adventure and then slowly transitioning the stats into play as people get more comfortable with it.

 

[Blitzer]

I personally use a stat and skill system for my rpg like books. Its actually quite simple however it was made for a non-specialized person. I give a bare minimum stats based on levels. Rather than have stats have extra bonus, I have skills. Each skill is suited to a particular area. For example, accuracy is a skill, elemental magic is a skill. The skills advance the more you use them. Therefore, it balances out stat limitation. For example, a skill could be heavy weapons usage. Each weapon placed could have limitations to be used at a certain skill level of heavy weapons, and a certain level of stats. Also stats could give bonuses to skill and skill progression. Like strength helps heavy weapon usage. In relation to this, Each level of skill advanced to give specific bonuses. Although this would allow for steady progress because each skill level would be done in percentage. This idea is basically simple and comes down not to level and stats but rather the skill set that some one has. 

 

[Ixacise]

Reminds me of marvel diceless which is an interesting system hampered by various flaws.


There are some key differences though.


Your rule set favors the defender which I guess helps alleviate the fact that you eat all the damage of the attack if it goes through. In Marvel the way the damage works is that you take the difference between the attacker's amount of points committed and the defense of the target. However I have concern for higher levels/power where it'll turn into dodge or get rekt contest since if you can't dodge it you got the potential of taking a lot of damage.


Another concern which I had with marvel is the issue of the refresh rate. I like the concept of pacing yourself and not gassing yourself out but on the other hand if there's gonna be a lot of stuff happening you're gonna want to be generous with total refreshes or up the point regen rates as otherwise you're gonna affect the players who are gonna be awkwardly standing around rating for them to regenerate enough points to do something and also the story's pacing suffers as we wait for the heroes to have enough go juice to do stuff.  Mind you I know this has a bit of wiggle room that's dependent on tone since it might be tonally appropriate for the players to be conservative in point spending but again if tonally you're gonna have a lot of stuff happening the skewing to being stingy in point spending to avoid gassing out isn't appropriate either. 


Marvel itself had an issue with the energy regeneration to the point that fans came up with various fixes since the only way to improve energy regen in the game was either more durability or taking the wolverine regeneration which might be inappropriate for some character concepts.