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OOC Little Talks

Kaerri

Dannigan's Lady
Administrator
Supporter
Maybe for the time being he'll just edge closer to hear better in case the conversation turns to his stalking targets the Chosen?

Or maybe he heard the part about Nadhoron not actually being part of the Resistance, which in itself is an oddity in this place, I would think. He seems to have left a good bit of his old life behind; maybe he wants to learn more about these people and see if they're someone he wants to be part of his new life, whatever that turns out to be. And since being sneaky first and openly approaching later seems to be his thing, he wouldn't want to just walk up and ask, but getting closer enough to hear better could work for now.
 

Kaerri

Dannigan's Lady
Administrator
Supporter
Hey @Wolf Rawrrr , the dice roller is now back in hosted projects in case you want to use it. ^;3^ It's accessible through editing a post (not the best way, we're working on it), so when you want to roll (or want us to roll), you'll need to make a post first and then edit for the dice.
 

MDL

RIP Doctor Calgori (2012-2017)
Hey @Wolf Rawrrr , the dice roller is now back in hosted projects in case you want to use it. ^;3^ It's accessible through editing a post (not the best way, we're working on it), so when you want to roll (or want us to roll), you'll need to make a post first and then edit for the dice.
That's so weirdly clunky. But great nonetheless :)
 

Wolf Rawrrr

Wolf-Knight
Supporter
Hey. So moving is done (though even after a whole week I am still unpacking), but for whatever reason the ISP technician hasn't shown up yet, so I'm still without stable internet access. I say stable because I can (and am right now) using my laptop in combination with my mobile phone hotspot, but that's inconvenient in multiple ways. Not to mention that I've had quite a bit of work this week and have barely had the energy to do anything else but fish out the tablet out of my backpack to watch Netflix until I doze off (currently binging on Grimm).

I do feel guilty for letting a whole eight days go by without even as much as logging in, though. Guess I just kept hoping things would be fixed by now (in addition to no internet I don't even have a desk yet) *woof*

So... I'm not going to be able to reply IC today, though I will read it and start making plans, but I really should address the Jack in the room (he he he).

Simply put, Amaranth is not 100% foolproof.

What I mean is that not everything that happens makes perfect sense, and in some situations plot holes abound. This is most likely primarily because of the sheer amount of improvisation on my part, or other times even intentionally due to laziness. Yet sometimes it's not just me... Take Asher for example. I really feel like Jack has (subconsciously?) made sure to make his participation in this game as difficult as possible. He made Asher to be somewhat incompatible with the rest of the party (in which there already are or at least were other awkwardly placed members), and despite my best efforts to steer him, he keeps writing himself into corners.

I'm still not sure what to write about next... Like, even if Asher does overhear bits of their conversation, so far he's had no reason to pay attention, imo, no reason to get rid of the two guards and actively try to pursue eavesdropping the duo. It's just two guys having a conversation (armor-clad, sure, but does Asher recognize it as important)?

I was planning on writing a few short lines about how Asher attempts to get more information out of their conversation, but like I said, he has no reason to (so far).
Look, if we're going to be bluntly realistic, then no, Asher hasn't had a reason to pay attention to the conversation between Nadhoron and Natalis. And by extension, no, he hasn't got any reason to want to learn more. But if that's how you want to play this game, driven entirely by logic and what makes sense, with zero tolerance and no room for error, then chances are Asher shouldn't even be at Tyr's Retreat in the first place. If we retrace our steps and re-run the previous chapter without trying to accommodate the fact that we're a group of friends telling a story together, then I'm pretty sure Asher never spies on the Chosen, or even if he does, he never approaches them and never joins them on their mission. What Asher does is probably set out to infiltrate the palace on his own, and then maybe has an encounter with the Chosen accidentally inside, if he doesn't get busted beforehand. And he probably does end up busted - especially if he proceeds with an assassination, or he escapes, whatever - guess what? He definitely doesn't end up anywhere where the rest of the player party is.

And then what's the point? Jack spends Chapter VI playing in a separate threat with no knowledge of the other players until his character either gets killed or escapes, at which point he once again has nothing to do with the others. And then what's the point of that?

It didn't make perfect sense for him to find and join the Chosen like he did. I mean holy s*** if the others had had remotely functioning brains they would have imprisoned him or killed him back at Auri's. A shady thief/assassin type that randomly shows up the night before they're about to go infiltrate one of the most dangerous places on the continent? The party had ZERO reasons to believe anything that Asher said, and about the same number of reasons to want his help. But out of character, we know it's okay. Out of character, we're trying to get everyone on the same team so we can play together.

That's the whole point. That's the reason why I allow, ignore, and often create inconsistencies and plot holes - to make sure that 1) we are all playing together like friends and 2) that we are all having fun playing. It's not fun to have someone perpetually stuck on the sidelines or in some parallel timeline while waiting for a 100% foolproof way to get them to join. Et cetera.

It might work more if Asher's character wasn't that of a hidey-sneaky-thievey-stabby, a guy who literally stalked the rest of the Chosen (iirc) before deciding he would actually approach them (what a weirdo).

He'd need some serious motive to try and start a conversation, and I'm just not seeing it at this point.
Exactly. I'm sure I've explained this before, but the main goal was always the same: you make a character, that character joins the others, all of you continue playing. The character never had to perfectly fit the bill, but surely you understand that the more he stands out, the harder it's going to be. And ultimately it needs to happen, no matter what, else you might as well not be playing - so if the price is a couple of plot holes or some weird inconsistency, then so be it. There's no choice but to move past that and possibly make it into a meme along the way.

Both @MDL and @Kaerri gave you some good advice, Jack. It's not like there isn't any way to proceed, but you need to allow yourself to stray from the path a little. Look at it from an OOC perspective. Because if you stubbornly only ever try to do what is realistic and what makes sense, well, then we'll be stuck a lot. Not to mention that your character shouldn't even be where he is, following said logic.

That said, what's going on with Medel right now isn't far off. I mean, Natalis approaching Nadhoron like this makes sense to me, but you don't have to try too hard to pick this encounter apart. Hell, I'll be the first to say: "hmm, you know what, perhaps Natalis wouldn't have done this after all". But guess what? I had to write something, and in limited time. And when I asked both of you for ideas and permission on how to setup your scenes, neither one of you had a single thing to say. Anything went, so I came up with something - and kept trying from the outset to connect you guys, yes for completely OOC-fueled reasons, because I thought it'd be more fun and interesting than to have everyone in their own threads talking to NPCs.

I mean... is that what you'd prefer? That would probably make more sense, if logic is what you want. But guess what? Logically, both of your characters are the types to spend this time meditating alone in their rooms. So if I made any mistakes, the first and biggest one would be not doing that. Because in my opinion that would suck, and there's no playing to be done like that. So sure, maybe what I've done is a little shaky, and maybe it doesn't leave you (Jack at least) much room to roleplay while staying completely faithful to what your character is like, I dunno. Tell me if that's what you think. But I've done what I felt was best at the time, in the time I had, and if I'm making sacrifices with my story to reach out to you, can't you at least try to meet me somewhere half way?

I don't even see it as out of character for Asher to be interested in the conversation next to him. I mean there's like six people around, so not much else to pay attention to. Then these two guys are close to him, so he'd catch some of what is being said whether he wanted to or not. Then finally, him being who he is, shouldn't be be naturally inquisitive and wanting to stay informed when information equals power?

And even if all of the above was insufficient... Well, to be completely blunt, we're coordinating this OOC. I have asked you and told you several times to do this joint scene. You can simply decide that Asher becomes interested in the exchange for some reason. You can even add "though it's not what he'd normally do" or something, if it felt so wrong. But I'm expecting you to participate, not to seek out the most logical way to reply to what I wrote. I mean hell, you could have Asher suddenly decide that the courtyard is too packed for his liking, and that he takes off to seek solitude somewhere else, but man once again what is the point of it all then? Why play at all? If you had no preference for the scene, and I did the best I could in active or passive coordination with you, then why not do what it takes to play it? It'll work as long as it's not completely wrong and weird, which you'd probably tell me if it was. But I highly doubt I could be so off.

TLDR; I'm basically asking you, Jack, or anyone else, to cooperate. We're telling a story together. We're not solving mathematical equations in prose. No one's grading this stuff. It's just for fun. It needs to mostly make sense, but not always, and definitely not at the cost of fun or quality of the whole experience.


And sorry, it's 1 AM as I'm finishing typing this, on the aforementioned laptop in bed due to not having a desk, and using my mobile wifi hotspot which only just suffices for the task. I'm tired and I don't even have the energy to re-read and edit as I usually do. So please arm yourself with some extra tolerance and understanding and tell me if there are still problems and we'll see how we can solve them *woof*
 

Kaerri

Dannigan's Lady
Administrator
Supporter
Welcome back, Wolf. ^33^ It's good to hear from you, even if the internet situation sucks still. Hope that gets resolved soon!

Something I do with several of my characters from time to time is, not necessarily "What would they do here?", but "What could they do that isn't completely out of character and will serve the group's and story's interest?" As people, we don't always act completely in character ourselves, if we have reasons to act otherwise, because people are complex creatures and can be compelled to sacrifice, if you will, one aspect of themselves to benefit another aspect. As an example, I have several characters with whom I RP in a Star Wars MMO. This week, I needed a character to "host" a session in which ancient Jedi artifacts are being recovered. Would my Jedi, who is first and foremost a healer, not a scholar or archaeologist, lead such a mission? On her own, probably not. On the other hand, she wouldn't be opposed to it either, as long as provision were made for her patients, because she does value knowledge and preservation of history. So I add a few background NPCs (or rather, take advantage of ones already added for just this reason) to make that provision, and now my healer is leading the recovery mission.

So long story short, if you can kind of stretch a little to fit the need, it's not the same as actually changing the character, but makes things easier on the group as a whole.
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
Take Asher for example. I really feel like Jack has (subconsciously?) made sure to make his participation in this game as difficult as possible. He made Asher to be somewhat incompatible with the rest of the party (in which there already are or at least were other awkwardly placed members), and despite my best efforts to steer him, he keeps writing himself into corners.
I agree with Kaerri and I have something else to add.

I see Wolf and Jack as having two different roleplay styles. I think Wolf can be a perfectionist with all of that style's trophies and faults; I see Jack as being absolutely true to a character who is secretive survivalist by nature. I have statements for both in the following in the following spoilers (only because I don't want to fill up our channel here with text and I don't think these thoughts to be so privacy-worthy as to be placed in Conversation).

Tell me if that's what you think.
You have asked me mine opinion - how can I give you anything but? =)

(Note on my tone: I mean the following in constructive, adult-to-adult manner. Just in case it comes across differently, I mean to state these thoughts in a positive fashion. Like you, I've had a few rough days recently [this is the first day in five that I haven't had a blasting, irritating, and completely bothersome headache stealing my sleep and causing me pain and I'm going straight to bed after I write and edit this]. You're my buddy, Wolf, and I mean the best for us and I want that to come across in my text (because I think were we face-to-face there would be no question of that goodwill). Text-based communications are so very limiting sometimes. That said, here are my opinions on the subject.).

Good Wolf, you want Jack to make Asher act in a way that benefits you and your game, but then you appear unhappy when instead, Jack asks in OOC for help to stay true to his character and "becomes difficult". Sorry, but I'm with Jack on this one. For me, the line, "To thine own self be true" from Shakespeare, holds absolutely true to roleplaying. Many a time in Sharseya has Nivirea played the selfish, "me-only" priss and gone and done as she damn well pleased regardless of what the Wayward Wanderers wanted or even needed. From their first deadly hours in Pohjola, when the party needed each other most, what did Nivirea do for the party besides mope and drag along and sink? My answer? Nothing that wasn't in-character for her.

That didn't make it any easier to RP with her.

Scenes like those made me miss Leonard Wolf again because he's a natural giver and, especially being a Ranger, I feel Leonard and (chilly) Pecker would have helped out wherever they could despite Loviatar's best efforts (plus, I just love Leonard's child-like wonder. What a guy!). I am NOT bringing this up as a sideways request to ask you to change characters. I'm bringing this up primarily because I want you to play the character YOU want to play.

Case in point - have I gone off and bitched even once about Nivirea's total lack of teamwork? Also, take a look at the Wayward Wanderers and ask why would these folks continue to have someone like Nivirea in the party? What benefit do they get by having someone like her in the game? Sure, it's nice to have an occasional spell from her (like the Grease spell combined with Luna's Ray of Fire cantrip), but tell me this - has Nivirea added more to the Wanderers or taken more from them? How about the rest of the party? Who else among them is firmly on one side of this scale or another?

Here's my big point - have I asked you to change Nivirea's alignment or asked you to play her differently to suit my desires as a Dungeon Master?

You wrote this:
Take Asher for example. I really feel like Jack has (subconsciously?) made sure to make his participation in this game as difficult as possible.
I think you're being unfair to Jack here. The first person I thought of when you wrote this was not Asher, but Xenthriss. I think Xenthriss was a player that was actively trying to be one difficult ass. Not Jack. I don't pretend to know Jack at all, but in my experience, when folks don't like a game, they often make some attempt to ask for help (as Jack did), and upon failing that, they leave to find the fun somewhere else. Therein lies the difference between the something you have described and someone who, despite some big difficulties, is still trying to play and have fun with us. Frankly, I hope what you have written here doesn't drive Jack away from us. He's a good guy.

Plus, I'm tired too. I need sleep right now. But instead, I am left hoping you will work with Jack instead of singling him out in public like this. Maybe continue asking him how the two of you can get along as Storyteller and Player? I'll help this process along if you'll (both) have me.

I have one other point I'd like to make. In your above post, you often seem to mention "mistakes" and "perfection" and not being "perfect" and so forth. I can't help but think of Bruce Lee ("Perfection is an illusion."). It can be a dangerous illusion, especially when your spirits are weary. Your wonderful world that you have spent so much of yourself in time and energy and years and dreams is what it is. An enjoyable place. A safe haven. A realm only you can deliver.

But Amaranth will never be perfect. Even if (maybe especially if) it's only you writing it. So instead can it be just a fun place to be? Isn't that the point of it all? Is it an interactive book of sorts where we all play and dance and sing with our spirits or it is all just a static painting on an unending canvas where every stroke is just so and every line as it must be? Where's the liberation and humanity in that?

If you don't mind my opinion, here it is. You're playing your character in-character marvelously. As a lifelong roleplayer, I think you're being absolutely true to your character and I find that laudable. However, I must ask - what does it take to make Asher anything more than a distant adventuring acquaintance to the rest of our characters? Is this all there is to Asher, a shadow in the dark who stays only to himself like the moon in the sky? Or is there the chance that he'll join our adventuring party as a full member instead of what he is (a "victim of circumstance" if you will)?

(Pardon if I "sound" a little off. I'm in need of sleep.)

I'm NOT asking that you make any changes to him; I mean to ask if he is approachable to this end as you have written him? I think the last time we got to know him at all was when we first met him back in Auri's home. I, personally, think we could use more of that. I like it when characters interact for their players often come together as a result (while the opposite is true - boundaries uncrossed remain or widen to everyone's eventual sorrow).

What do you think and what would help?

Wolf, here's hoping your move-in wearies still their ugly heads and become something nicer and more pleasant for you. Hope your Internet returns and soon. Moreso, I hope your happiness blossoms out of this move. Might take time, but like a new flower, I hope it's beautiful.

"It's Going to Take Some Time" by Carpenters. Carpenters are wonderful! I just love this song. It's peaceful and it gives me strength. Hope it brings you up when life gets you down. =)

Lyrics:
It's gonna take some time this time
To get myself in shape
I really fell out of line this time
I really missed the gate
The birds on the telephone like, (next time)
Are cryin' out to me, (next time)
And I won't be so blind next time
And I'll find some harmony

But it's going to take some time this time
And I can't make demands
But, like the young trees in the winter time
I'll learn how to bend
After all the tears we've spent
How could we make amends?
So, it's one more round for experience
And I'm on the road again
And it's going to take some time this time

And I can't make demands

I'll learn how to bend

It's going to take some time this time
No matter what I've planned
And, like the young trees in the winter time
I'll learn how to bend
After all the tears we've spent
How could we make amends?
So, it's one more round for experience
And I'm on the road again
And it's going to take some time this time

Okay. Bed time now. Good night, everyone! 8D

Honor and fun,
Dann =)
 
I was hoping for another post from @Wolf Rawrrr , something that might make the conversation between Nadhorn and Natalis more interesting to Asher... Because so far, it hasn't been interesting, at least to Asher. It's basically what I'd expect from two random TES NPC's talking about, and I do not see why Asher would care about that. Also, he can barely hear what they're saying as well, which doesn't help.

What I see that could help me is a more developed and interesting conversation between Natalis and Nadhorn (something concerning the Chosen or the Sorceress), and Asher being able to hear them more clearly.

Otherwise, the only move I see that Asher could make at this point is:
-gets annoyed by the two guards
-goes into the shadowrealm to avoid them
-gets noticed by Nadhorn or Natalis
But what then? Asher wouldn't just stay there, and even if he did, it's not like Nodhorn or Natalis could make contact with him being in the shadowrealm.

Or I could break the character completely, have Asher push through the two guards and introduce himself to Nadhorn (for some reason). Or do you want me to put in some story elements behind Asher? Maybe he knew one of them from before?
 

Dannigan

Kaerri's Man. =)
Supporter
@Jack Elarithon I'm starting to see Asher as semi-autistic by the way he handles himself (either something is in his "world" or not, kind of like the shadowrealm he runs to). I think it might help Wolf if you were to flesh out Asher some with story elements. I don't know how much roleplaying experience you have, but the more character you give your Storyteller, the more they have to run with.

@Wolf Rawrrr Wolf? Maybe this roadblock could be fixed with something as simple as a carefully-written note handed to Asher by someone he trusts, perhaps an old contact or guildmate (insert brief NPC here)?
 

Wolf Rawrrr

Wolf-Knight
Supporter
Okay, I think his is getting blown out of proportion.

I'm not asking anyone to be downright untrue to their character. Just to have a little understanding and to sometimes overlook little inconsistencies or discrepancies which would technically be considered as not 100% accurate roleplaying. I understand what you guys wrote, but I still firmly believe that if we remained wholly true to each character, as you advocate doing, then Asher never would have joined the Chosen in the first place, to repeat my earlier example. So clearly we have already made compromises just to get him here - we had to, because the way Jack wrote Asher, he is simply not player party material.

I mean, is Asher set in stone? Is there no room for him learning new things, changing in some small ways, sometimes doing things that are out of character? Is he always going to be some unapproachable dark figure on the sidelines that has no motivation to do anything that's unrelated to his singular quest for revenge? That would be hard to incorporate into a player-driven story, don't you think?

I do not believe it it possible, or even advisable, to always be completely true to one's character. For many reasons.

But again, I'm not expecting anything absurd from Asher... Of course he's not gonna waltz over and randomly introduce himself. Why would he do that? And I'm not sure I even see a roadblock here in the first place. Sometimes silence is an acceptable answer, remember Jack? You don't have to have a reply at every turn. At the minute you're interacting with the two guards that initiated a conversation with Asher, you don't need to worry at all about what's going on between Nadhoron and Natalis until you decide that you do. Perhaps I confused you with what I wrote in my posts, making it seem like this situation is suddenly forced on Asher. I apologize if that's the case.

What you should do is deal with the two soldiers talking to Asher, in whatever way fits your character. Unrelated to anything else. By then the conversation next door might catch his attention, or it might not, it doesn't matter. I'm not requiring Asher to join in or anything like that. And if you say that Asher doesn't give a f*** about the two soldiers, then tell them that, not me.

I haven't yet had a real chance to post.
 
@Dannigan Semi-autistic, maybe, I'd rather tone it down to single-minded. His motives drive him towards revenge, and seeing that he already lost everything he cared about, there's little that might attract his attention, or seem worth his time to him. Maybe if he met someone he knew, that could change his disposition, especially if it's someone he thought gone.

@Wolf Rawrrr It's hard to change someone this old, but it does happen I guess. It took Asher losing everything for him to accept murder as a go-to solution. As I said, maybe him meeting someone he knew would shift his character a bit.

Alright, then I'll have Asher wait for a bit more then, or think about him somehow handling the soldiers, I'm in no rush. I just felt that it might be problematic if I didn't post anything (guess that was just me).
 

MDL

RIP Doctor Calgori (2012-2017)
there's little that might attract his attention, or seem worth his time to him
That's a problematic aspect of any RP character and should be avoided at all costs. Especially if the RP doesn't lend itself to that kind of character, which is pretty much every RP ever.
Alright, then I'll have Asher wait for a bit more then, or think about him somehow handling the soldiers, I'm in no rush. I just felt that it might be problematic if I didn't post anything (guess that was just me).
You can still post even if you don't interact with Natalis and Nadhoron in said post.
 

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