How would the Dynast's react to PROOF of the truth?

some accounts indicate the primordials enslaved humanity.


thats what the corebook in first edition said.
 
But the Primordials would still have the option of deleting creation.


So, they had to go.


I wonder what would happen if the gods took all of the shards, ripped out the diefic aspects, and then reimbued them?


Would that nuke the curse?  Or just screw it up badly.


A Sidereal with Heart of Flint or Intentional Cruely... :lol:
 
True enough.


Remember a lot indicates that creation itself was originaly a GAME for the primordials... at least one theory I heard said that.
 
But they got bored and upgraded from Creation 1.0 to Creation 10.0 in one fell swoop.


I guess the gods didn't want to have to remake their characters. :shock:
 
About solar propaganda - When you ask a relatively objective question, you shouldn't make it so that the views you present on the question are severly biased.


And I think everyone knows that my view on Solars isn't as extreme as I present here. In my games, I hardly present all the solars as crazy evil guys, in fact, most aren't evil at all. I present them in an objective view.


but on the forums here, I'm much more of a DB fantast cause I need to make everyone see why they are the ones meant for real heroism and not the solars ;)
 
Random thought: When I first saw this topic, I wanted to reply with "they would run around in cicles until their head mecifully exploded from the truth"


But then reading through, everyone is so serious....


Unfortunately I beleive the most devout among the immacualtes would continue to refuse the truth and it would cause a cival war between believers and heriticts. Just my thought.
 
... this is probably gonna seem a bit random, but bear with me...

some accounts indicate the primordials enslaved humanity.
thats what the corebook in first edition said.
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enslaved humanity? Define 'enslaved'? I mean, what use would beings such as the Primordials have for them? Belief is obviously not a necessary source of power for the Primordials, though I suppose it could be quite the turn-on for them as well. Even so, they would hardly have to 'enslave' humanity. Just put the fear of the Primordials into them (so to speak).


Which brings me to another topic that I've been thinking about...


Well, what is the purpose of sentient beings in Creation? (or non-sentients for that matter... but well just let that discussion slide for now shall we) Little ants to play with? It would appear they are more important than that.


They ensure the stability of Creation. The beliefs and lives of mortals hold back the sea of chaos (see historical references to the Great Contagion and the ravages of the Wyld). Maybe mortals are the source of power for all of Creation? Maybe they are the power that allows the Games of Divinity to continue? (the Matrix has you all!) They also happen to be Essence batteries for the Gods , though how integral they are to the nature of the Gods is somewhat unclear.


The belief of mortals grant Gods power. But whether they can subsist without it or not (after having evolved to a certain point) is left unclear... There are examples of spirits that one might think (under the assumption that Gods need belief to exist at all) should have perished through the inattention of mortals... Then there are the Gods that are custodians of concepts so complex and abstract that they cannot help but be worshipped in a million little ways every day (ie. all the greater Gods). But if Creation is swallowed by the Wyld / destroyed and pulled into the Void, do the Gods persist? I think not.

I wonder what would happen if the gods took all of the shards, ripped out the diefic aspects, and then reimbued them?
Would that nuke the curse?  Or just screw it up badly.
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This presents something of a paradox to me. If the Gods take back the power of the shards, would the Great Curse be nullified? Would the Gods themselves be corrupted? They had protected themselves against the vengeance of the Primordials, but would this still apply to already corrupted portions of their power?
 
That would be a valid reason not to cleanse the shards from the gods' point of view.


Corruption isn't fun.
 
some accounts indicate the primordials enslaved humanity.
thats what the corebook in first edition said.
Click to expand...
The relationship between primordials and humanity is one where concepts of freedom and slavery have no place.  I guess you could say that every ant in your ant farm is your slave, but the notion of an Ant Liberation Movement isn't something that we as humans would ever consider... the life of an bug has no value to us as humans, and thus individual human life would be even less valuable to a primordial since the primordials can make or unmake a human pretty much at will.


Supposedly, some people believe in the notion of objective morality, that somethings are always good or evil, regardless of your perspective on the matter.  I don't personally believe in that, but regardless, such a notion of morality doesn't have a place in exalted.  Such "inalienable human rights" do not really exist here, made evident by this very thread; the right of mortals to govern their own fates is not part of anyone's rhetoric.  The existance of the exalted will always demean the place of mortals in creation... they will always, on some level, be beasts of burden or pets for sheer amusement.  The difference in scope and power is such that a solar would regard the little mortal girl standing nearby the same way said girl regards the kitten she holds in her arms... cute, adorable and certainly deserved of life, but hardly a being of sovereign rights or equal in stature to a solar.  I can just imagine a solar talking about his man servant: "Yeah, the poor guy is 70! That's like 3000 in human years!"


A being that wields the power of a god and has lived for several millenia can hardly be expected to think in terms of modern moralists... to them humanity is just composed of transient beings that flicker in and out of existance.  So, forgive me if I don't believe that people like the Bull of the North gives a rip about whether the mortals in his region are slaves or free... whether or not he believes it now, they will eventually be nothing to cattle to him and he will treat them as such.
 
From whence did the notion come that the primordials, having created Creation, can unmake it or anything within it? It is a common belief that being capable of one makes you capable of the other, but what evidence do we have that this is so?
 
hrm.  Well... perhaps I'm incorrect in assuming this but primordials are at the top of creation - everything that is or ever was was either created by them or created by one of their progeny, which ultimately means the same thing.  I don't remember who exactly created humanity, but it's assumable that if a primordial didn't do it, they still would have the ability to do it even if they didn't have the vision to dream it up in the first place.  


Other than that defense - no, I don't have evidence, just assumptions and educated guesses.


edit: sorry, misread your point.  I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that one who can make can also unmake... it generally takes more effort to create something that it does to break it down.  Neither can be done without effort but, you know... that "can jesus microwave a burito that not even he can eat?" stuff...
 
I don't dispute the ability of primordials to create anything. What I dispute is any special ability to uncreate the things they have created, other than the typical smash-bash-burn options available to everyone else.
 
I think when you're talking about a conflict between a primordial and a human, you can omit the burn or bash parts and just stick with smash.


I can squash an ant easily... just because I can't unmake its very being with my mind doesn't mean that I can't kill it without virtually no effort.


The idea that I was trying to convey wasn't about destruction, but creation...  an ant to a human has more value than a human to a primordial, because while the human is unable to undo what they just did, the primordial sort of can.
 
Sato said:
such a notion of morality doesn't have a place in exalted.
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Yes, it does. Maybe not in your games, but it does in mine.

Sato said:
A being that wields the power of a god and has lived for several millenia can hardly be expected to think in terms of modern moralists... to them humanity is just composed of transient beings that flicker in and out of existance.
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That's just your interpretation of things. Another interpretation would be that being an ascended human, that has struggled with the hardships of mortality grants them the perspective to keep their view of mortals as more than mere cattle. Neither interpretation is right or wrong. It's more a question of which interpretation will garner the greatest, and most satisfying dramatical impact for your game series.
 
Quite valid points Solfi ;)  However, to quote the most wretched human being on earth... we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
To answer the original question, the answer is totally "it depends".


Let us not delve into whether or not the Usurpation was justified or not; this is one of the setting elements that is left deliberately vague to allow any Storyteller or group to put their spin on things. Clearly, some Solars were total nutjobs who had to be wiped out before they went from Bad to Worst. However, there may well have also been Solars who remained largely virtuous and 'innocent', and were purged alongside their corrupt brethren anyway.


So it really depends upon the individuals concerned.


With the modern Dragon-Blooded, what does this mean?


The Realm is about to fall into an internecine conflict for the Scarlet Throne; to the average politically savvy Dynast, the question posed by the OP is less pressing than this concern, because the Solar Exalted are far away whereas political rivalries and dangers are right here. That they truly are Usurpers may encourage a few Dragon-Blooded to rethink their priorities, but ultimately the average DB's loyalties are split varyingly, to differing degrees, amongst three things: the Realm, her House, and herself. If abandoning the Immaculate philosophy and defecting to become a worthy ally/servant of the Solars serves her interests, she may just about choose to do so; otherwise, I imagine she is too busy dealing with political maneuverings to care.


More far-thinking DBs may yet react differently and bequeath their services to the Solars earlier, either out of genuine loyalty or simple strategic consideration; more conservative, Immaculate-influenced ones would probably fight it out to the bitter end. In these cases, too, it largely depends upon the individual.
 
Sato said:
Quite valid points Solfi ;)  However, to quote the most wretched human being on earth... we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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I can live with that   :) .
 
what makes u think that they DON'T know the truth. the world was ruled by corrept and wicked Anathema and our ansestors took them down what they don't know is that even today they are siderial pawns


THAT would piss them off
 
Well...duh. Lookshy knows the truth, they'd be retarded if they didn't I'm sure they do. The General Staff anyway. The Empress would know, but her children...mmm I'm highly suspect. Why let them know? It would only make them more pissy than they are. Besides, with the way canon is going, more and more DBs know about the Siddies, but binding spells are fun :D
 
I like that: many if not most graduates of the Heptagram have threefold binding laid on them.


The danger of that spell that the siddies are prone to ignoring is, someday a DB is going to succeed on that willpower roll. And that DB might decide to tell about those anathema in the Heptagram.


Of course such a DB would be quickly silenced, but as more and more start talking, there's going to be a growing drive to investigate  the place.


Alternatively, what about a smart DB who tries to undermine them rather than coming out and making his freedom known? It would make a great story for a PC dragonblood who had broken free of his magic bondage, and could freely speak of the anathema teachers at the heptagram...
 
I wouldn't worry about graduates of the heptagram for a few reasons:


1. The nature of the studies they undertake there probably do a lot to undermine the teaching of the immaculates.  I would imagine that piety doesn't last long there as the secrets of creation are dissected for teaching purposes.  Only a very naive DB could hang on to their religious beliefs there for very long and probably wouldn't make it very far.


2. Knowing about the sidereals does not necessarily mean that they would be immediately loathed as anathema, nor does accepting sidereal existance mean that you somehow become more tolerant of solars... at least from the perspective of Sorcerers.


3. Revealing the sidereals in the Heptagram doesn't do anyone any good because it will severely jeopardize the practice of sorcery within the realm and that's not something that a sorcerer is going to want.  Further, by revealing that all sorcerous teachings in the realm are taught by anathema casts even more suspicion and doubt on a profession that's already very isolated.


4. Kinda along the lines of the previous point, the Immaculates already don't like sorcerers, if the sidereal influence was revealed, it would probably only be a matter of time before all sorcery in the realm was outlawed and practitioners of it hunted down and executed for their "spiritual corruption".


5. Sorcerers seem to band together and self govern.  Staying on the Heptagram's good side seems to be the best way to advance one's career after leaving the school.  Plus there's a good chance that any attempt to reveal the truth would cause strong backlash from other alumni.


6. Ultimately, if a sorcerer knows about the nature of their instructors and continues to learn from them, it suggests that they either don't particularly care or were able to compromise their ethics in order to gain greater power.  Either way, most heptagram alumni probably have a much more pragmatic view of anathema than their non-sorcerous counterparts.


Bottom line: the oath is a good safety net, but it's not the glue that holds the whole conspiracy together.
 
orionstark1482 said:
what makes u think that they DON'T know the truth. the world was ruled by corrept and wicked Anathema and our ansestors took them down what they don't know is that even today they are siderial pawns
THAT would piss them off
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As it's been said before' date=' the DBs find out, the Siddies won't be around much longer.[/quote']
The charm that the siddies use (can't remember what it's called) that allows them to walk unseen isn't nearly as fool proof as it sounds.  It's machinically impossible that the heads of the dynastic houses DON'T know about the sidereals.  Considering that Mnemon is a high essence sorceress further solidifies this.  The ruling elite have to know about the sidereals and they are obviously complicit of them.  It's too improbable for it to be any other way.


Second, the DBs are not pawns of the sidereals.  They are allies.  The sheer amount of unbridled power that the Dynasts wield in creation reflects that.  A pawn is someone that you use only long enough to serve a purpose and then take a fall for something; the sidereals helped build the realm to last.  Just because the sidereals happen to have a motive (the survival of creation) doesn't mean that by helping ensure that vision among the DBs makes them pawns.  It is a common goal that they all work towards...  Most DBs probably want a strong empire if you asked them, so why does it matter if the Siddies help them make it?  Just because the sidereals are not fully transparant about their role in creation doesnt mean that it's malicious.  Further, the sidereals have always maintained the role of advisors to the Empress... the SE is certainly not just a figure head, which she would HAVE to be if you want to argue that the DBs are pawns.


Third, it's silly to believe that the dynasts are the mindless prisoners of the religion that they helped create.  The Scarlet Empress certainly knows of it's origin, so why would she willfully leave her children ignorant of it?  I'm sure it's on a need to know basis, and certainly it is within their best interest to keep things status quo.  Honestly, what DB that knows is gonna rock the boat when it keeps them at the top of creation?  Certainly not every dynast knows, but the heads of the houses most certainly do.  


Honestly, I like it this way: it makes the DB just a little bit more pragmatically evil... which is worse? that you are the ignorant beneficiary of a lie or you help maintain it for your personal benefit?  Yeah, that's what I thought...


Edit: the question was posed "why would the Empress tell her children about the sidereals"... the answer is so that when they eventually find out they don't blow the lid off the whole thing by accident.
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I agree with many of your points, which I think would indeed complicate matters for a DB seeking to root out the influence of the Siderials. Particularly that they would cast sorcery into doubt wholesale. However, noone accused sorcerors of being common-sense or having great political acumen, so that's not a hard-and-fast ban on someone standing up and saying "Anathema are doing it!".


As to them having to be "naive" to continue to worship the dragons and believe themselves above mortals, which is the essence of the immaculate faith, I consider it to be similar to the argument that you can't be a christian if you're a scientist. Of course you can. As long as you don't mix the two, there's really no conflict. One is spiritual, the other is observational.


As with sorcery: it's magic science. One can learn all the secrets about how the world works in exalted, and still believe that one is raised above the chaff by virtue of enlightenment. Hell, knowing that much and being a powerful sorceror might even reinforce that impression.


On top of this, the Dragonbloods knowing about the Siderials will know that they are being manipulated. The Siderials might have the best of intentions, but they are unseen hands manipulating the choices and policies of the most powerful Dragonbloods of the realm. You think the Dragonbloods would be happy with this if they knew? The Empress doesn't seem to mind their arrangement because it suits her; she outmanouvers them and doesn't work against them while they make her subordinates more complicit. However, due to their arcane fate and their ninja charms, they would have little difficulty remaining unknown to the other DBs without special circumstances (such as being locked up on a remote island messing with essence every day) interfering.


So I disagree that the house heads and the others are in bed with the siderials knowingly, and I think that their pride (The DBs) would lead them to slaughtering those they found and declaring them anathema above the other, more traditional Solars and Lunars. The DBs have pride, lots of pride.
 
Oh trust me Samiel, I understand your points and agree with them largely.  I just like to stress that the DB can be pragmatic and aren't always the reactionary zealots that they're made out to be.  It's a wierd contradiction because on one hand, DB are reduced to naive pawns and delusional zealots, obviously caught helpless in the webs and snares of greater beings, yet at the same time they are often the main antagonists that are blamed for a lot of the world's woes... I find these two points irreconcilable.


I certainly dont want to suggest that all DB would be cool knowing that Siddies exist.  Most would probably resent the influence that they exert over the realm.  What am suggesting though is that you can be okay with some stuff without devalidating others.  Regardless of the truth or lies of the immaculate faith, DBs are above mortals in all regards and no religion is going to change that.  Considering that the Lunars, Sidereals and Solars don't directly influence (yet) the day to day lives of most residents of creation supports that: from the usurpation up to the present, the DBs have been the top of the food chain in creation and that's fine.  The immaculate faith has many good points and redeeming qualities... it also has some terrible flaws that will probably ultimately spell its doom... at the end of the day though, that's what makes it so fricken interesting ;)


Pragmatism, complicated ethical and moral dilemnas, complex motivations and balancing, mixing and, ultimately, breaking down good and evil in the crucible of creation... this is what makes exalted so great.  Which is why I rail so hard against black and white tableaus of Creation that attempt to strike away any ambiguity.  I see a villian and the first thing I ask is "how is this person like me?"  If I can't relate to a villian, to their motivations and their background, they simply become comicbook bad guys... their destruction is just an incidental event that coincides with the plot progression.  It's the bad guys that make you think that are memorable... it's taking the blackest, foulest devil and finding something of yourself in them that's truly frightening but keeps you coming back for more.
 
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