How would the Dynast's react to PROOF of the truth?

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I think the writers at WW were either too lazy or just looking for a way to show the Siddie's Great Curse more effectively.

 

[Vanman]

Hey, look, the Solars were plumb crazy. Something had to be done. In many respects, the Sidereals were screwed from the outset. If they made the choice they did, well, Creation ended up the way it did. If they tried to 'cure' the Solars, and failed, then Creation would have been destroyed. And like I said before, they played the percentages. They had a much better chance of taking out the Solars than they did of bringing them back from the edge. There was a higher risk and a higher reward in the other choice; the Sidereals went for the safe option. They saved Creation. But, in the process, Creation was diminished.


I never said the Solars weren't culpable for their actions. They were. It was a product of the Great Curse, yes, but they still became monsters. And the Solars WERE held accountable for their actions - they got wiped out. Most of them (the shards, anyway) were imprisoned for centuries. Those who weren't, got hunted down.


And it could say that, at the time the choice was made, the Sidereals weren't under the aegis of the Great Curse. They had, essentially, two choices to make. Both had pros and cons. They debated and went for the path that would most likely succeed. How is it they were influenced by the Curse at this point? Their curse came later, in failing to recognize the threat those outside of Creation posed, or the fact that the Sidereals couldn't see what they were doing in their astrology. How did that affect their original choice? I don't think it did. Which may be the reason the Sidereals are held to be more accountable.


Just speaking for myself, I think the Sidereals made the choice they did without much influence from the Curse. It was later on that the Curse screwed them, particularly with the Deathlords, the Great Contagion and the Fair Folk invasion. That's when things really went pear shaped. But just as the Solars had to be held accountable for their actions, So, too, should the Sidereals.

 

[Persell]

What I really don't get is how the Sidereals got only three options out ot the Great Prophecy. What about being in charge themselves? What about the Lunars? What about seceding from the Deliberative with their own little country? What about killing the Solars and then seeing that they were raised properly?
What about the old doomed King idea: you get to be King for a while, but the catch is, we get to kill you when you're X years into it.


And i'm sure there's more one can think of. What about all those?

It is an interesting notion; one of the big factors of the first age that I've always considered was that there probably was a baby-boom just following the primordial war as the casualties all reincarnated in a short period of time.  That, in my mind at least is a huge problem because the great curse is compounded within an individual based on their power.  If the whole of solar society grew at the same rate, that basically meant that as the power of the solars reached an apex across 70% of their population, the ramifications of the great curse was WAY worse during that time than if you had a staggered population.... hence you have the earlier portions of the first age which were idyllic because the great curse held almost no sway, versus the end where the curse was just generally stronger in all solars, and all those solars were far more powerful than they were centuries prior.


Under that light, it is seems reasonable that, if this power cycle was broken up and averaged out over the whole lifespawn of a solar, you could keep the great curse under a control... at least enough to make it reasonable.  Of course, that would require a 4000+ year breeding program.


This is why I think that both the bronze and gold factions are full of it.  There's no way that the bronze can get the cat back in the bag, so to speak, but letting all the solars flourish when they were all exalted within a few years of each other just means that in a few centuries the world will be in SERIOUS trouble.

 

[Quorlox]

One thing that I find interesting is that everyone likes to over look the great curse that hangs upon the solars... basically everything bad the solars have ever done can get rationalized away as a result of the great curse.  

While it could be rationalized this way, it doesn't have to be.  Solars can do evil things even without a curse.  

Doesn't matter if a dawn caste flips out and murders a bunch of babies in a rage, 'cause in the end, it's the primordials who are to blame.  

The Primordials are to blame for cursing those who slew them?

 

[Zaramis]

The Solars helped slew the Primordials, their creators - They are at fault


The Lunars and SIdereals.. same things there, they were a big part of the primordial wars.


The dragon blooded? Just pawns, and more close to the primordials than any of the other Exalted, since they are Terrestrial and children of Gaia in the end.


Which gives = Dragon Blooded should be the real rulers of creation, and they do rule creation in a way more suitable for primordials. Gods have no power ( in theory ) on the blessed idle, order and stability are the primary words. They aren't heavily hit by the great curse, and they never became as corrupted and crazy as the Solars did. They are more favored by the original owners and the truthful overlords of Creation than any of the other Exalted groups ;P


The Elemental Faction lives! Slay the sidereals, and have the only good Exalted rule the remaining parts of Creation and unite under one banner!

 

[Zaramis]

Also, Solars do pretty bad things without the curse. They aren't good by definition. Both core books state that: Solars aren't good. They are heroes, but they can be dark heroes, and they aren't chosen for their motivations, they are chosen because they have the destiny to do something with their power. It's clearly written like that.


Secondly, the Sidereals didn't sit down and have a meeting with different options, mentioning lunars etc. They cast a great -prophecy- that gave them three different options. They didnt reason their way to a conclusion, they had three ways the world could go, according to fate, the stars etc etc.


None of them had all those suggestions you mentioned, alas, they could not choose from them because they knew they would never come to pass.

 

[Jukashi]

The Solars helped slew the Primordials, their creators - They are at fault
The Lunars and SIdereals.. same things there, they were a big part of the primordial wars.


The dragon blooded? Just pawns, and more close to the primordials than any of the other Exalted, since they are Terrestrial and children of Gaia in the end.


Which gives = Dragon Blooded should be the real rulers of creation, and they do rule creation in a way more suitable for primordials. Gods have no power ( in theory ) on the blessed idle, order and stability are the primary words. They aren't heavily hit by the great curse, and they never became as corrupted and crazy as the Solars did. They are more favored by the original owners and the truthful overlords of Creation than any of the other Exalted groups ;P

Most of these arguments apply far more readily to Dragon Kings than they do to Dragon-blooded, y'know.

 

[Zaramis]

The dragon kings are lame, however, and don't exist in my game. So I refuse to take them into account, cause I'm a bastard like that mwhahaha.


And I seriously dont know anything about them, and what I've heard has been incredibly uninspiring. But then I don't like any "minor" things that only came along with an expansion book to mean a ton in a world.


They aren't mentioned as an important faction in the main books, then I won't see them as an important part of the world. It's the reason I dont like half-castes being the backbone of the Empire, or half-Solars being important somewhere, or Dragon Kings, or even Autochton playing a big part in the world.


I liked the basic setting. DB's, Solars, a few Lunars, Abyssals, Sidereals. They are the ones that matter to me, as well as the plots important enough to be mentioned in the core books. Other books are more made to cater for individual interest, and are way different in theme and mood.


Just compare, say, "Houses of the Bull God" to the new Magitech book. They describe entirely different moods, themes and it's a stretch to say that the sort of things they describe belong in the same game, imo.

 

[Jukashi]

I see.


...


...

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Oh, shit...


:shock:


*ducks fate*

 

[Persell]

While it could be rationalized this way, it doesn't have to be.  Solars can do evil things even without a curse.  
The Primordials are to blame for cursing those who slew them?

MOST of the time when it's suggested that the solars might be partly responsible for their fate, the general response from a lot of people is a blank look, followed by "but... but... the solars are the protagonists! They can't be good and yet still do evil things! No that just doesn't work!"  In general, it seems that the solar curse is something that most people seek to trivialize as much as possible, never factoring it in to the overall standing of the solars and yet it is used to explain away every bad thing that they do as a result of it.  Yet with sidereals, no such leeway is given, their great curse does nothing to mitigate the blame assigned to them.  Just seems uneven.


As for the babies example, it's to illustrate the first point; solars are absolved of even the most heinous crimes because the curse made em do it.

 

[Persell]

Hey, look, the Solars were plumb crazy. Something had to be done.

I think part of the conceptual problem is that WW was vague about exactly what happened at the end of the first age.  It really depends on how you read into things.


Some could say that the first age was still pretty rosey, just a few alarm bells started going off, a few minor wierd things.  The sidereals, being cautious as they are, decided to investigate the matter and to their surprise saw a forcast of doom with a 70% chance of annihilation.  Thus, they decided to jump the gun.  If you prescribe to this interpretation, then yeah, the sidereals are dicks and the solars got screwed.


Others might see it that the solars were already off the deep end, and were at that point that, somewhere in the world, at any given time of day or night, there were at least a couple solars who were just flipping out and killing shit with their god-like powers.  If you prescribe to this interpretation (any guesses as to which I prefer?), then the sidereals are saviors and the solars are the unfortunate victims of events greater than them.


Ultimately, the blame rests with the UC no matter how you look at it, sending the message strong to the kids at home: don't do celestial smack.  It doesn't matter if all your other friends are playing the Games of Divinity, cool kids think for themselves and don't give in to peer pressure!

 

[X-Salted]

My opinion is that the solars succumbed to the great curse rather than make it a scape goat to why they acted that way they did. It doesn't take a great curse to make someone fall into hubris and corruption even for a solar. I wouldn't completely blame the sids or the DBs for the usurpation. And with the power and position the solars had abuse of it wouldn't be a surprise. Like the saying goes: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And no one in creation had more power and a higher position in creation than the solars in the first age.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

The Solars helped slew the Primordials, their creators - They are at fault
The Lunars and SIdereals.. same things there, they were a big part of the primordial wars.


The dragon blooded? Just pawns, and more close to the primordials than any of the other Exalted, since they are Terrestrial and children of Gaia in the end.


Which gives = Dragon Blooded should be the real rulers of creation, and they do rule creation in a way more suitable for primordials. Gods have no power ( in theory ) on the blessed idle, order and stability are the primary words. They aren't heavily hit by the great curse, and they never became as corrupted and crazy as the Solars did. They are more favored by the original owners and the truthful overlords of Creation than any of the other Exalted groups ;P


The Elemental Faction lives! Slay the sidereals, and have the only good Exalted rule the remaining parts of Creation and unite under one banner!

So, the Arayans were just following the orders of Der Fuhrer? Nice try, Goering, give us another Nuremburg type response

 

[Jack1]

Just for the sake of clarity, I transcribe the following from official WW material as evidence of expected levels of solar batshit crazyness:

Pherinike, called the Harp of Morning, served the unconquered sun as an Eclipse Caste solar. Her aide Oreithyia walked carelessly in Pherenike's garden while her mistress was away. When she realised the damage she had done to its impeccable arrangement, she fled into the woods.
Had Pherinike's mood been pleasant Orethyia would have faced a reprimand for her act and punishement for her flight. Instead when Pherinke caught her wayward servant there was blood in her eyes. "I do not believe you have mastered the fine principles of gardening" she said, and demonstrated, arranging Orethyia's flesh in an aesthetically pleasing fashion accross an acre of forest.


This garden was known in the coming days as Pherinike's masterwork. It held out against rot for nearly seven years and several poets and painters captured the image in their respective forms.

That's just for walking in the bosses garden.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Also in the Blood and Salt book, a Solar imprisoned the Dragon Under the Mountain, a former Arbiter of Storms, because a scheduled hurricane interrupted his tea session.

 

[Persell]

Well, there you have it.  Solars are bonkers!

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I thought this was agreed upon years ago? ;P

 

[Zaramis]

There are some nice First-Age examples in the Aspect-books for the DB's too. One is a letter where they try to solve the problem of what to do with the hundreds and thousands of slaves the Anathema left behind.


Apparently, many Solars had several hundred slaves, many of them changed into new "exciting" shapes and functions, and the usurpers are trying to figure out what to do with them, if they are innocent or not, etc.


So yeah. Hundreds of beast-man slaves and other much more twisted creations kept in pens and in areas, bred for the purpose of dying..  Solars went crazy all-right.


The question I ask myself.. will the Great Curse do this again? It seems incapable of reducing the solars to these acts of depravity over a long time ( rules-wise ) but can it turn that way again?

 

[Zaramis]

Also, the aryans didn't follow any Fuhrer at all. The aryans invaded India some several thousand years  before the WWII, and were written as more pale-skinned warriors than the people who lived in the Indus-valley at that time.


They seem to have spread to Europe later on, and Hitler used their Sun-children myths to create his swastika and the myth about his aryan people.

 

[Alabaster Anathema]

Just going with the current discussion even though their isnt any game mechanics to it it was stated or hinted at in a book or two that WITH time the Solar and at least in this fact i could assume any of the celestials, Give into their great curse more easily then when its just fresh from their exaltation


Also i mean just looking at it from a logical point of view solars are meant to be really heroic and the way the curse works is the more heroic you are the bigger the piece of shit you become.


that said....


I think the Terrestrial reaction would definetly run the Gamut of a few things, someone mentioned earlier in the thread about if you stated something about jesus or good ole Muhammed beinga big P.O.S. people would still not believe it


there would also be just as many terrestrials who would look into it or just give it the width and breadth such a revalation deserves. Also there would probably be those who just sit the fence bcasue they really deep down dont care

 

[Persell]

The question I ask myself.. will the Great Curse do this again? It seems incapable of reducing the solars to these acts of depravity over a long time ( rules-wise ) but can it turn that way again?

I think that the exalted of the current age are more equipt to handle the ramifications of the great curse and compensate for it... maybe even come to a rough solution that might create a new-found sense of solidarity.  It's possible, but then again, it's equally possible that the juggernaught will let one rip that will shatter the elemental poles, so who knows?


THE PROBLEM is... well, this very post for one.  The squabbling of the current age focuses largely upon the crimes committed in ages past.  The bronze faction can't get over what the solars did to creation and the solars can't get over what was done to them.  The gold faction can't get over how the bronze faction has humiliated them.  And the DB just go on, blindly listening to what their betters tell them is true.  A war is starting to rage about who is right, who is legitimate, who is strongest and no side seems interested in introspection or possibly atoning for their actions.  For all their bravado, both the sidereal and the solars really don't give a crap about what's best for creation, as long as whatever solution results with them being on top and damn everything else.


Crazy enough, on top of that, despite all the lamenting about the lost wonders of the first age, most people seem content to butcher the opposition whole-sale, thus repeating these heinous mistakes and causing creation to slide noisily into the anus of oblivion.


Essentially, the imperial mountain is being skewered with a giant soul-steel toothpick and garnished with EZ-Cheeze... made out of souls of course... the blessed isle being a nice canape for the appetites of the malfeans.


Senseless Staggering Stupidity.

 

[Jukashi]

The Lunars are concerned with the present!


Granted, they're concerned with tearing down all present civilisation and plundering it as they go... but they're not so hung up on the past as you'd expect for people who have the most First Age Exalts.


Of course, the reason is probably that they've changed, they know they've changed, and they aren't really bothered by how they've changed because they're the Chosen of a trickster-god/dess whose dominion is change in the first place. They've learned from their past mistakes, and now they'll just use that knowledge to shape Creation to their ideals.


Also, [obligatory Dragon King plug].

 

[Persell]

to those who've said it...


I'll admit YES the way I asked my question WAS biased.


I apolagize.


to Zaramis however.


If your tired of Solar propaganda you dont have to read it.


ok?

 

[Quorlox]

both the sidereal and the solars really don't give a crap about what's best for creation, as long as whatever solution results with them being on top and damn everything else.

Gods and Exalts tend not to care about Creation.  If the US had wanted to make Creation the best it could be, he would've done that instead of waging a war to play GoD.  Imagine what could have been done if he'd used the Exalts to just better Creation.  No Great Curse.  No Underworld or demons.  The Primordials were so distracted by GoD they wouldn't have cared.