How would the Dynast's react to PROOF of the truth?

[Persell]

Um...no one ever said it did. Most people lived in lavish vcomfort compared to the modern day and sure they had excess' date=' but not to that point. They were not on a genocidal rampage by far...[/quote']
thats what im trying to say.


that people in generla would have been better off if the solars had continued... for all their decadence their buerucracy and socialize charms made things much bette.r

Sorry for the shotgunning posts, but I had to also tackle this comment:


On one hand you suggest that peoples lives would be better if they had just shrugged off the atrocities of the solars and lived in a corrupt and decadant world - slaves in golden chains - than to have overthrown the solars like they did, yet submitting to the comforts of the Realm is intrinsically evil and amoral?


The point, metaphorically, is that the dragon blooded of the second age ARE the solars of the first age, just smaller scale.  The issues at the core of the conflict are identical to those issues that lead to the usurpation.  The only difference is that the DB reign, in and of itself, wont lead to the end of all things.  The sidereals and the DB overthrew the solars because they were insane and decadent and cruel.... it wasn't a coup to sieze power, it was a crusade to end tyranny, a tyranny that the DB in their much more limited capacity cannot recreate.


I just find it strange that morally it is okay to sit back and watch the world sink into chaos because, well, the solars make the best toys, yet it is reprehensible to submit to the will of an empire when the realm is trying to maintain stability in creation.  I find it equally boggling that the Solars have an unimpeachable right to rule over creation which was STOLEN from the primordials and which they GREIVOUSLY abused, yet the DBs, who rose up in the vacuum left by their celestial superiors are corrupt tyrrants who are just out to eat the souls of babies.  Solar propaganda! Don't listen to those Gold Faction Vipers, Man! They lie! It's what they do!

 

[Jukashi]

Yeah! Put the people back in charge who were charged by the primordials themselves to be on top! Those who ruled humanity with mostly benevolence and wisdom!


The Dragon Kings!

 

[Persell]

Dude! Totally!


I dunno... I just get frustrated with this aspect of the whole Solar/Anathema thing.  UC isn't looking any more, the absolute truth as presented in the game books doesn't matter.  The solars need to proove themselves, they need to wash away the stains left by their decadence and they need to demonstrate that the world would really be better off under their rule.  It doesn't matter if they're top of the food chain, if they're going to periodically go off the deep end.  It doesn't matter if they have the best tools and technology if they can't use those tools for a real, definitive good.


Once they can banish the stigma of anathema from their reputations and do some real good for someone, other than pissing and moaning about how creation was stolen from them, then maybe I can see them having the right to ascend once more.  Until then, I'll call the wyld hunt down if I see one in my neighborhood.


I'm looking for real moral redemption; swinging a big golden daiklave around doesn't cut it, pardon the pun.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

prove to me that the solars would have destroyed creation


Your proof must take into account these truths


1: the siderials are afflicted with a blinding arrogance


2: their prophecies CANNOT take into account the actions of Yozis, demons, fair folk, malfeans, or dead


3: The siderials are incapable of believing that they are wrong when they are in groups


4: the solars have the sorcerou power to correct anything they fuck up


5: creation was larger under solar rule

 

[Persell]

Three words (although I don't have the books with me so I may get them wrong *grins*):


Five Metal Shrike.


Come on people! Individual solars can blow up whole entire cities! With their minds!!!  Then they start building automatons that can do the same?  The military industrial build up of the first age, augmented by the great curse drives the probability of total annihilation up to almost the level of 100% certainty.  I wont assert 100% because we're talking hypothetically here, but yeah, this is crazy, out-there shit.


Seriously!  Take a valor limit breaking dawncaste and give him a button of ultimate destruction... you really want to take the house odds on that one?  Give me a break.


edit: sorcery isn't perfect and there are still things outside of its grasp.  Resurrection is one of those things.  Sorcery can rebuild a city in short order to the way it was, but it can't bring all the dead back.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Sorcery was one of the great implements of the Primordials. Their first shot of the war after they're imprisoned. Think I'm lying, check the Book of Three Circles and the 'spirit' whom approached Brigid. Look at the circumstances it appeared, meteor in sky, she was lamenting for her husband.


Second Circle demon, name escapes me. Her masters looked favorably upon her.


One of the great weapons which lead to the Solar's infinite potential, playing with the toys of the Primordials. Wouldn't it be an interesting case if that was part of the Curse as well? Somehow sorcery resonated with the Curse, becoming an ultimate part of all the Exalted. Driving the Solars to hubris to see how much power an individual could weild. And so on and so forth.


Just food for thought on why the Solar's fell and a factor leading to their hubris and part of the Terrestrial's covetous wont to be in their keepers places.

 

[Persell]

Let me come around on this point once more.


Look, I'm not saying that there aren't portions of the Realm that aren't wickedly evil and should be done away with.  I don't believe that the solars are beyond redemption.  I don't believe that the first age was the ultimate hippy age, but I don't believe that it was without it's wonders either.  I'm not denying that the sidereals are arrogant MFers and have made some pretty disasterous decisions.  I don't even necessarily believe that the usurpation was the right choice.


I am, however, asserting solars, like all exalted, mortals, gods, elementals, demons and primordials, are imperfect beings.  Imperfect beings with a LOT of fricken power.  Imperfect beings with a LOT of fricken power AND a terrible curse on them.  Imperfect beings with a LOT of fricken power AND a terrible curse on them AND had a whole arsenal of world shattering weaponry during the first age.  Removing said beings from a position of dominance is a reasonable course of action; it's unfortunate that individual people were associated with this, but the removal of the solars could be seen as a necessary disarmorment of dangerous weapons in a post war era.  Disarming and destroying a nuke after a major war sounds just peachy, but because these nukes just happen to be people things get pretty sticky.


I don't believe that they have a sovereign right to rule, I don't believe that they have any divine mandate for anything.  If the logic persists though that they have the right of vengeance for those crimes committed against their previous incarnations that they SHOULD at least recognize the crimes that their previous incarnations committed.  I just don't know why an individual DB should be held accountable for every stupid thing that their ancestors might have committed but a solar shouldn't be concerned with things their own incarnations did.

 

[Persell]

Oh trust me CW, I believe you.


I don't even think that you need to go so far as to have a special resonance.  Giving sorcery to the solars was like giving an 5 year old a loaded gun; they might know what it is and have some respect for what it can do, but it ultimately a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I've never said individual DBs were needing to be held accountable. The entire theme of Exalted is individuals who are severely flawed. It's the mainstay of the series. The irony I'd love to see, mortal man getting the world. Why? They're imperfect like anyone else, BUT the Exalted are mortal man times a thousand, so mortal man itself would be fine.


Hell, I'd vote DKs before that too.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Oh trust me CW, I believe you.
I don't even think that you need to go so far as to have a special resonance.  Giving sorcery to the solars was like giving an 5 year old a loaded gun; they might know what it is and have some respect for what it can do, but it ultimately a disaster waiting to happen.

Indeed, eliminate sorcery from the setting and wonder what would have come then. A much different place me thinks.

 

[Persell]

I've never said individual DBs were needing to be held accountable. The entire theme of Exalted is individuals who are severely flawed. It's the mainstay of the series. The irony I'd love to see, mortal man getting the world. Why? They're imperfect like anyone else, BUT the Exalted are mortal man times a thousand, so mortal man itself would be fine.
Hell, I'd vote DKs before that too.

Totally.  I quoted frank herbert the other day regarding this very point.  I can't remember it exactly without looking it up, but basically the quote suggested that if you take mortal drama and have it play out on the scale of a superhero then you're in for some serious shit.


Don't get me wrong, I love the solars, but I enjoy them for their flaws as much as for their better qualities.  Trying to minimize their flaws or absolve them of their misdeeds really dimishes their value, in my mind at least.  I want to see them win, but I don't want the setting to get dumbed down in order to accomodate their victory.

 

[Jukashi]

Any problems with the DKs getting run of the place? Anyone?

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

You and your silly crystalline faction...


People will be a hell of alot more frightened by giant dinosaur men than glowing solars in my opinion...

 

[Jukashi]

But we're nice giant dinosaur men!

 

[Zaramis]

This thread is like honey for me. I love seeing all the well thought out replies and rejoice in seeing others who share the same view of Solars as I do.


Three cheers for the Realm! Hip hip, huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah!


( And think of this. There are 150 solars out there, give or take some. There are 10.000 dragon blooded. Of the dragon blooded we have seen in the books so far, more than 50% of them have been rather good people, who try to "fix" the realm and the world at large. This would mean there are about 5.000 dragon blooded out there who want to make the world a better place, and reunite the realm, make it stabilized, and safety for the common people ( as long as they pay their tributes ).. 5000 can do more than 150 to help the world become a good place. Logic says the solars need the DB's, but the DB's don't necessarily need the solars.


Well, sure, they might need them vs the deathlords.. but yeah. Whatever!

 

[Quorlox]

Sorcery was one of the great implements of the Primordials. Their first shot of the war after they're imprisoned. Think I'm lying, check the Book of Three Circles and the 'spirit' whom approached Brigid. Look at the circumstances it appeared, meteor in sky, she was lamenting for her husband.
Second Circle demon, name escapes me. Her masters looked favorably upon her.

I didn't realize the Yozis gave Solars sorcery.  Did the Malfeans give them necromancy?

 

[Flagg]

It's mentioned that they "discovered" it when studying the Underworld.


-S

 

[Quorlox]

It's mentioned that they "discovered" it when studying the Underworld.

So that would be a big yes.  Wasn't the U.S. bothered that his minions were being given gifts by the Yozis and Malfeans?  Or didn't he notice?

 

[Jukashi]

Wait, wait. I though summoning demons with sorcery was part of the surrender terms of the Yozis. If the Yozis gave Exalts sorcery after they were trapped, how does that work?

 

[Persell]

It's questionable how much of necromancy was originally pioneered by the twilights and how much of it was spoon fed to them by forces unknown.  In the long run, necromancy is just a footnote in solar history, it wasn't around long enough before the usurpation to really have that strong of an effect on creation.


I guess you could say that what work the twilights did to expand their knowledge of necromancy largely benefited the deathlords who would continue its practice centuries later, but I don't think it made an impressive difference.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Wait, wait. I though summoning demons with sorcery was part of the surrender terms of the Yozis. If the Yozis gave Exalts sorcery after they were trapped, how does that work?

To my knowledge that wasn't part of the surrender terms. I think the terms were the Yozis were answerable to the Incarna themselves, not their lessers.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

This thread is like honey for me. I love seeing all the well thought out replies and rejoice in seeing others who share the same view of Solars as I do.
Three cheers for the Realm! Hip hip, huzzah! Huzzah! huzzah!


( And think of this. There are 150 solars out there, give or take some. There are 10.000 dragon blooded. Of the dragon blooded we have seen in the books so far, more than 50% of them have been rather good people, who try to "fix" the realm and the world at large. This would mean there are about 5.000 dragon blooded out there who want to make the world a better place, and reunite the realm, make it stabilized, and safety for the common people ( as long as they pay their tributes ).. 5000 can do more than 150 to help the world become a good place. Logic says the solars need the DB's, but the DB's don't necessarily need the solars.


Well, sure, they might need them vs the deathlords.. but yeah. Whatever!

I'm going to dance around your pyre when the Realm goes to utter shit

 

[Vanman]

I think it comes down to the choice the Sidereals made. They had two paths to choose from - overthrow the Solars and have Creation survive, albeit greatly diminished, or try and redeem the Solars to return to the 'Golden Age.' And the Sidereals played the percentages. The path they chose had a greater chance of success, but that success came at the price of a much more barbaric society, after the fall of the Solars.


Could they have redeemed the Solars? Who knows? But the chances of that happening were much less than the path they chose. So it depends on how you look at it. You could say the path chosen saved Creation at the expense of the divinely mandated Solar rulers (and they were divinely mandated, regardless of whether the US paid any attention to Creation or not), and that, whilst Creation is now in a sort of Dark Ages, it still exists. Or you could look at it that the effort wasn't made to try and help the Solars past their madness, that no one tried to restore them to sanity and the age of wonders they supposedly ruled over.


In my opinion, the DBs are just pawns of the Sidereals. It's at their feet that the present state of Creation can be laid. For good or ill. No one else was making the decisions so they stepped up to the plate. And put the DBs in power. Because there was no one else. Let's not forget that. There were no other players in the field. The Solars - dead. The Lunars - run away. The Sidereals - faded from memory. By default, that left the DBs. I don't think it's anything that's heroic or admirable about them, or the job they did. They were just the only ones who had any chance for ruling Creation.


Don't forget that the current state of affairs is due, in part, to the Sidereals and their own version of the Curse. Their inability to see those outside of Fate, or to even plan for that eventuality, kind of brought about the world as it is. Didn't see the Deathlords, didn't plan for the Great Contagion, which in turn made the Deathlords and Malfeans even that much stronger, didn't see the Solar shards being broken free from their prison, and didn't see the disappearance of the Empress.


So now the world is going to hell in a hand basket - the Solars have returned, and might possibly discover the Sidereals' role in their own downfall. The Empress disappeared so the Realm has fallen to infighting and trying to find a replacement, rather than focussing on all the shit that's at their doorstep. And don't forget the Malfeans, the Deathlords, the Abyssals, the Fair Folk, or the Yozis.


There's been a lot of talk of Dragon-Blooded vs Solar, but I think the Sidereals are the real culprits.

 

[Persell]

There's been a lot of talk of Dragon-Blooded vs Solar, but I think the Sidereals are the real culprits.

One thing that I find interesting is that everyone likes to over look the great curse that hangs upon the solars... basically everything bad the solars have ever done can get rationalized away as a result of the great curse.  Doesn't matter if a dawn caste flips out and murders a bunch of babies in a rage, 'cause in the end, it's the primordials who are to blame.  But EVERYONE acknowledges that the usurpation was a direct result of the curse's grip on the sidereals, but people still hold the sidereals 100% accountable for all of their actions.


edit: I also get frustrated when the "law enforcement" is blamed for the action of the "criminals".

 

[Jukashi]

What I really don't get is how the Sidereals got only three options out ot the Great Prophecy. What about being in charge themselves? What about the Lunars? What about seceding from the Deliberative with their own little country? What about killing the Solars and then seeing that they were raised properly?


What about the old doomed King idea: you get to be King for a while, but the catch is, we get to kill you when you're X years into it.


And i'm sure there's more one can think of. What about all those?