Nation Building Fallout: New Days CC

[Pat]

In Fallout 3 there's a vertibird, Pride One, that the Brotherhood of Steel uses, having captured it somehow before the events of Broken Steel. I think Rothschild says something about being able to get it working by sorting through the Enclave technology they've looted.

 

[Pat]

To further address the power armor subject, the stated reason the Enclave stopped using the X-01 when they went Eastwards was because they simply couldn't make them anymore with their reduced resources. The only reason they could make the advanced power armor which you see in Fallout 3, and the Hellfire power armor you also see in Fallout 3, is because the facilities within Raven Rock itself, which allowed them to mass produce new power armor with less resources, but was inevitably lesser quality than what they wore into battle in Fallout 2.


Adams Air Force Base is more of a stockpile, a forward base not that much unlike the role Narravo held back West, than a development center in it's own right. Raven Rock was the Enclave's new Oil Rig, and, like that Oil Rig, they barely made it out in time with enough people and resources to continue to wage war. 

 

[Pat]

I stand corrected. They did have the Duraframe Eyebot research and Hellfire power armor development take place there. Though the former was all erased other than E-DE, the Hellfire power armor was extensively tested at the base. The facilities to actually produce it, at least in something more than a prototypical scale, is unlikely though.


Or maybe the part about the development of the Hellfire power armor was derived from ED-E's logs, which just hint the divertment of resources from the Duraframe Eyebots to Hellfire power armor. The Enclave was REALLY hurting for resources to produce the Hellfire though.

 

[Fgkun]

"As of 2287, the Brotherhood of Steel has gained access and manufactured a huge arsenal of T-60 power armor (which replaced the T-45 and T-51 power armor as the new standard issue power armor). This armor is only given to knights and above. The Brotherhood does not equip all of its knights and paladins with T-60 not due to an inability, but in order to maintain a level of flexibility in their operations. The Brotherhood have gained access to a large number of energy weaponry (all of the BoS members are equipped with laser rifles or Gatling lasers and even a vast supply of VB-01 and VB-02 Vertibirds, with the ability to manufacture even more according to Paladin Danse. They also possessed a heavily armored airship, the Prydwen, which according to Paladin Danse, can carry enough troops and supplies to launch a major offensive. The airship also serves as their mobile command center."


http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_(East_Coast)#Technology


All according to dialogue with Danse which you are free to check if you don't believe it. Also, even if they weren't able to manufacture T60 power armor, they would still have a vast amount of T45 power armors they could upgrade. And who knows whether they found the resources much like they found Liberty Prime? Where the Enclave apparently didn't bother to look.


And if they managed to repair a Vertibird, they must have grasped the inner workings of one at least somewhat and most likely were able to piece it together, judging from all the Vertibirds they now possess and need to fix regularly.


There's an edit button here.

 

[Pat]

"As of 2287, the Brotherhood of Steel has gained access and manufactured a huge arsenal of T-60 power armor (which replaced the T-45 and T-51 power armor as the new standard issue power armor). This armor is only given to knights and above. The Brotherhood does not equip all of its knights and paladins with T-60 not due to an inability, but in order to maintain a level of flexibility in their operations. The Brotherhood have gained access to a large number of energy weaponry (all of the BoS members are equipped with laser rifles or Gatling lasers and even a vast supply of VB-01 and VB-02 Vertibirds, with the ability to manufacture even more according to Paladin Danse. They also possessed a heavily armored airship, the Prydwen, which according to Paladin Danse, can carry enough troops and supplies to launch a major offensive. The airship also serves as their mobile command center."


http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel_(East_Coast)#Technology


All according to dialogue with Danse which you are free to check if you don't believe it. Also, even if they weren't able to manufacture T60 power armor, they would still have a vast amount of T45 power armors they could upgrade. And who knows whether they found the resources much like they found Liberty Prime? Where the Enclave apparently didn't bother to look.


And if they managed to repair a Vertibird, they must have grasped the inner workings of one at least somewhat and most likely were able to piece it together, judging from all the Vertibirds they now possess and need to fix regularly.


There's an edit button here.

I just checked his location dialog and out of all of that he hasn't said anything pertaining to that, so I'm beginning to doubt that a companion I've had previously would have extra dialog that I'm not aware of.


http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Danse


That information you highlighted is meaningless, as it has no on-site citation, as in, a place where someone can look at where they got the information they put into the page. As of yet, Gamepedia lacks a full dialog compilation of what Danse says, but I've never actually seen any of what you're claiming based off that link despite doing a Brotherhood playthrough before.


And please cite this random Citadel-like place you can see in Fallout 3 or is referenced in Fallout 4 that is capable of producing power armor. Because the only one we know of is Raven Rock, which is rubble. Very possibly Adams Air Force Base though, which wouldn't be able to manufacture that many if it even exists since Hellfire power armor was still in the prototypical period.


And doesn't that highlighted quote contradict a previous statement of your's about the standard issue equipment of Knights and Paladins? About them all being equipped with T-60s? Admittedly, I vaguely remember a tidbit when I joined the Brotherhood about this subject, so I'll investigate that. There's no dispute about the Brotherhood having a lot of T-45ds, but they have less power armor in use by the organization as a whole in comparison to Lyon's chapter, which was struggling to stay alive. Upgrading power armor is a complicated topic. They might've found conversion kits somewhere. You got to remember however that the only faction that has ever produced power armor after the Great War has been the Enclave, there's simply no evidence to the contrary. Why would Bethesda say that T-45ds could be converted to T-60s if the Brotherhood actually made them? In Fallout New Vegas a loading screen says the NCR made Ranger Patrol Armor. Yet it doesn't actually say that in Fallout 4. To my knowledge, anyway. Neither is that said about vertibirds. Currently we don't really know what manufacturing ability the Brotherhood has on the East Coast, but, given they say multiple times the Capital Wasteland is more dangerous than even the Commonwealth, despite being their base of power, that makes me skeptical that even if they intimately knew every nook and cranny of a vertibird that they'll be able to successfully produce it.


C'mon. In 2277 the Brotherhood and Enclave were fighting over a water purification facility. That same year? The NCR and the Legion first clashed over Hoover Dam, which produces far more water, massive amounts of electricity, and the Strip itself, which is a bigger prize than all the settlements of the D.C. area put together. The West Coast is far more developed than the East, and with all current evidence, the Brotherhood can't even tame it. How would they produce a technological wonder that for all we know they've only learned to maintain? 

 

[Pat]

Obviously by now you must've been able to tame the Capital Wasteland as the organization as a whole, should there have been enough manpower put into it, but isn't the fact that they have the far deadlier attack vertibirds in the Capital Wasteland a cause for concern? In Fallout 3 the Capital Wasteland was known for it's safety. Now apparently the Commonwealth is safer, the inhabitants of the region are lucky that they're not dealing with whatever the BOS is dealing with down in D.C., and the East Coast Supermutants even momentarily gained a Master-like figure. He was killed by Maxson, yet still the Capital Wasteland is plagued with some unknown threat.

 

[Pat]

*I checked the Gamepedia citation for their page on T-60 power armor and apparently it's pulled from the Fallout 4 Art Book. The developers based the T-60 off the T-45d, heavily modifying it, as a 'reimagining' of the armor, to make it more like a vehicle than clothing. That's basically all we know about the armor, but it does make it more likely for the actual canon to be it was a modification of the T-45d.

 

[Pat]

You ever going to update your faction post though? Waffle's getting closer everyday to the required post count.

 

[Fgkun]

"there's simply no evidence to the contrary."


There is. You just chose to ignore it because it conflicts your opinion. The truth is that they have these power armors. You can't deny it. And you also can't deny that the Enclave and the US military couldn't have possibly created all of them. So it must have been the Brotherhood. Who else would do it? Answer that for once, please.


"Why would Bethesda say that T-45ds could be converted to T-60s if the Brotherhood actually made them? In Fallout New Vegas a loading screen says the NCR made Ranger Patrol Armor. Yet it doesn't actually say that in Fallout 4."


You brought that up. I only expanded on it. How come something is questionable when I say it, but perfectly fine if it comes from you? I smell bias.


"The West Coast is far more developed than the East, and with all current evidence, the Brotherhood can't even tame it."


The only thing that is developed in the west Coast is New Vegas. And the Brotherhood "can't even tame it" only assuming that you are right.


"they say multiple times the Capital Wasteland is more dangerous than even the Commonwealth"


I don't remember hearing that in Fallout 4. Since you always insist on me citing things, maybe you should start doing it as well. And for the unknown threat in DC that you mention. It is probably dangerous because it is hidden. Nothing other than an organized resistance of high technology or manpower can really stand up to the Brotherhood. Mirelurks, Mutants and the like would have been wiped out long ago. Still, I'd like the sources for what you're saying.


"And doesn't that highlighted quote contradict a previous statement of your's about the standard issue equipment of Knights and Paladins?" 


I said that every knight has one, not that they use it. Or if you'd like it otherwise: the power armors are there, but the Orders say not to use them.


"You ever going to update your faction post though? Waffle's getting closer everyday to the required post count."


I was laying in bed sick since monday. Thank you for your consideration. Besides, there are other people who wanted to join, so we have more than enough time for this since nobody but you bothered to actually submit a complete sheet. Not even Waffle.


Well, I'm looking into the Danse thing again. Maybe godmode myself through to the scenes I have in mind for some dialogue that may be there.

 

[Pat]

"there's simply no evidence to the contrary."


There is. You just chose to ignore it because it conflicts your opinion. The truth is that they have these power armors. You can't deny it. And you also can't deny that the Enclave and the US military couldn't have possibly created all of them. So it must have been the Brotherhood. Who else would do it? Answer that for once, please.


"Why would Bethesda say that T-45ds could be converted to T-60s if the Brotherhood actually made them? In Fallout New Vegas a loading screen says the NCR made Ranger Patrol Armor. Yet it doesn't actually say that in Fallout 4."


You brought that up. I only expanded on it. How come something is questionable when I say it, but perfectly fine if it comes from you? I smell bias.


"The West Coast is far more developed than the East, and with all current evidence, the Brotherhood can't even tame it."


The only thing that is developed in the west Coast is New Vegas. And the Brotherhood "can't even tame it" only assuming that you are right.


"they say multiple times the Capital Wasteland is more dangerous than even the Commonwealth"


I don't remember hearing that in Fallout 4. Since you always insist on me citing things, maybe you should start doing it as well. And for the unknown threat in DC that you mention. It is probably dangerous because it is hidden. Nothing other than an organized resistance of high technology or manpower can really stand up to the Brotherhood. Mirelurks, Mutants and the like would have been wiped out long ago. Still, I'd like the sources for what you're saying.


"And doesn't that highlighted quote contradict a previous statement of your's about the standard issue equipment of Knights and Paladins?" 


I said that every knight has one, not that they use it. Or if you'd like it otherwise: the power armors are there, but the Orders say not to use them.


"You ever going to update your faction post though? Waffle's getting closer everyday to the required post count."


I was laying in bed sick since monday. Thank you for your consideration. Besides, there are other people who wanted to join, so we have more than enough time for this since nobody but you bothered to actually submit a complete sheet. Not even Waffle.


Well, I'm looking into the Danse thing again. Maybe godmode myself through to the scenes I have in mind for some dialogue that may be there.

I found this when scrolling through his massive dialog file page. I'll provide the link if you want, but, warning here, it's ridiculously long. Look at the middle dialog box.





That pretty much debunks your power armor argument. And I said produced power armor. Not that the Brotherhood is incapable of upgrading them. Another possibility was that they found a stockpile. The T-60 was developed on the East Coast, so it's entirely logical a warehouse would be somewhere within the region. Either that or enough conversion kits to make a mass upgrade from T-45d to T-60 feasible.


Have you seen Vault City? Place has massive walls, laser cannons, they can clone body parts and they have some of the best medical technology available. How about the Shi, which reinvented the engine? Or Gecko, which has a functioning nuclear plant. The NCR has been producing money from the Boneyard for a while now too. How about Reno, which, while not as big as Vegas, has neon lights and the ability to manufacture movies?


Everything above but the currency part has been confirmed to have occurred before 2277. There's very little technological advancement that has occurred on the East Coast by that point that could compare, aside from the Institute's inventions.


I looked into Elder Maxson's dialog and he says that T-60 power armor is befitting of a Knight's title in the Brotherhood. So I'll concede on that.


If you have time to run through to a BOS outpost, it's a random line that they say. Like the NCR troopers say that they wish it's a nuclear winter. The line where they say the Commonwealth is all lucky. I believe a few other instances do pop up as well from other sources. Like Danse, Teagan, and, I'm not certain about this one, Kell.

 

[Pat]

Also, and I find this hilarious by the way, I realized I was going off Fallout 4. It hasn't only been three years since Fallout New Vegas. It's been nine.

 

[Fgkun]

Okay, that seems pretty convincing on them not being able to produce power armor. But gladly, it also opens the very probable that they can do it now!


And I haven't played Fallout 1 and 2. I'm only 18.


I don't remember anything about the mainland being worse than the Commonwealth, so I'm assuming that it's some ambiguity and it's up for interpretation. Even if it is, there's still the thing about the Brotherhood realistically being able to defeat anything that isn't a state/nation or on the power level of the Institute and the Enclave on their own. So I can only think that their problem is some kind of underground organisation.


Thankfully, the Vertibird problem still applies and it still seems reasonable to me that they manufacture the masses that they currently have since Vertibirds at least are something they couldn't have produced in a big scale before the war.


Oh, and I would prefer it if you didn't post several times if you can just edit once or twice.

 

[Pat]

Okay, that seems pretty convincing on them not being able to produce power armor. But gladly, it also opens the very probable that they can do it now!


And I haven't played Fallout 1 and 2. I'm only 18.


I don't remember anything about the mainland being worse than the Commonwealth, so I'm assuming that it's some ambiguity and it's up for interpretation. Even if it is, there's still the thing about the Brotherhood realistically being able to defeat anything that isn't a state/nation or on the power level of the Institute and the Enclave on their own. So I can only think that their problem is some kind of underground organisation.


Thankfully, the Vertibird problem still applies and it still seems reasonable to me that they manufacture the masses that they currently have since Vertibirds at least are something they couldn't have produced in a big scale before the war.


Oh, and I would prefer it if you didn't post several times if you can just edit once or twice.

He does say "imagine if the Brotherhood could" do that. So it's currently a fantasy that Danse believes the Brotherhood can't achieve. I did try to see what facility he was talking about, but the table didn't have that. I'm assuming it's the Polymer Labs. That would be odd, considering it is only a facility trying to improve power armor, so it could maybe be the Forged base. I really don't have a clue. Actually, I bet it's the Corvega factory.


But if they can't produce power armor, would they really have the productional capability to produce a complicated vehicle? Factories and materials don't pop out of nowhere. [COLOR= rgb(39, 42, 52)]You do encounter roughly twenty through fifty crashed prewar Vertibirds in the Commonwealth. Probably some in the DLCs [/COLOR][COLOR= rgb(39, 42, 52)]too. In Fallout 3 there's a DLC that's a simulation of the battle of anchorage that two vertibirds take part in, though the source of the information is questionable. Since vertibirds have been retconned into being a prewar vehicle, I'm betting that there were other vertibirds all over the country.[/COLOR]

 

[Fgkun]

Well, as you said the power armor is made of polymers, but the Brotherhood's Vertibirds are mostly made of metals I would presume. Sure, plastics as well, but they are most likely more standard like the stuff we use in our universe so they should be wasteland resources that can be found. The Polymer labs make sense and they were salvaged entirely as stated in my posts, so all the equipment is there for analyzing and trying to understand it. Saurus Ironworks is also overtaken.


After all they most likely had schematics for all power armor types and they also produced them, though on a scientific scale. So you could analyze the process and upscale it. That will just be one hell of a workload for Proctor ThisIsJustASubtituteForIngram. So the scribes of the Commonwealth and Capital will have no free time.

 

[Pat]

Well, as you said the power armor is made of polymers, but the Brotherhood's Vertibirds are mostly made of metals I would presume. Sure, plastics as well, but they are most likely more standard like the stuff we use in our universe so they should be wasteland resources that can be found. The Polymer labs make sense and they were salvaged entirely as stated in my posts, so all the equipment is there for analyzing and trying to understand it. Saurus Ironworks is also overtaken.


After all they most likely had schematics for all power armor types and they also produced them, though on a scientific scale. So you could analyze the process and upscale it. That will just be one hell of a workload for Proctor ThisIsJustASubtituteForIngram. So the scribes of the Commonwealth and Capital will have no free time.

I just said they weren't made out of steel and provided a link to what we know about T-51b power armor. To our knowledge they haven't made any new power armor too, or anything close to power armor. That photo's contents would be different otherwise and Danse would be like, "oh, this facility would be great for helping us produce power armor in a larger scale again." Or something like that. The Polymer Labs is a lab, not a factory that you can use to make power armor. It was made for the purpose of creating a better coating for the finished product, not the product itself.


I'll come back soon with what we know about Vertibirds, but it isn't just steel. 

 

[Pat]

Badda-bing badda-boom. Found it. That's basically it. Vertibirds have a tragically small amount of information about them. These are heavily armored, which rules out steel, at least in the final product. Probably requires aluminum and titanium as an alloy, not to mention electronics, a nuclear aircraft engine, rotors, tires for landing gears. Glass. 


Vertibird placard: "This is a scaled model of a prototype military transport vehicle being developed by the U.S. Military. The XVB02 "Vertibird" is a VTOL ("Vertical Take Off and Landing") craft with an extremely durable armored fuselage and can be armored with a variety of offensive weapons and defensive countermeasures. This is the most advanced aircraft of its kind ever developed, and the military hopes to press them into service by 2085."