End of the Underworld

[Sherwood]

I would have a problem with trying to eliminate the Underworld.  It has been in existance for so long, and has developed a whole series of gods and systems to keep it running, that I could argue the fact that it may stay in existance even if you remove the connection of the 'dead' Primordials, or if you find a way to fully destroy them by sending them into Oblivion.


Of course, the Deathlords may have a problem with that plan.  Since the Primordails were the one to turn their Solar shards to serve Oblivion, they may lose their power, or be destroyed outright if the Primordial they 'serve' is reanimated or destroyed.  That could make for one hell of a war in the underworld; 'lets destroy this Primordial, so that it eliminates the First and Forsaken Lion without ever having to fight him directly.'  Or, 'we must join forces to stop this threat from taking all of us down.'  If all the Deathlords stopped fighting one another and linked up, they could take down much of Creation without breaking a sweat.  Add to that the independant gods and beings that depend on the Underworld to 'exist' and ouch.  That fight would make the Fae invasion after the Great Contagion look like a border skirmish.

 

[orionstark1482]

I would have a problem with trying to eliminate the Underworld.  It has been in existance for so long, and has developed a whole series of gods and systems to keep it running, that I could argue the fact that it may stay in existance even if you remove the connection of the 'dead' Primordials, or if you find a way to fully destroy them by sending them into Oblivion.
Of course, the Deathlords may have a problem with that plan.  Since the Primordails were the one to turn their Solar shards to serve Oblivion, they may lose their power, or be destroyed outright if the Primordial they 'serve' is reanimated or destroyed.  That could make for one hell of a war in the underworld; 'lets destroy this Primordial, so that it eliminates the First and Forsaken Lion without ever having to fight him directly.'  Or, 'we must join forces to stop this threat from taking all of us down.'  If all the Deathlords stopped fighting one another and linked up, they could take down much of Creation without breaking a sweat.  Add to that the independant gods and beings that depend on the Underworld to 'exist' and ouch.  That fight would make the Fae invasion after the Great Contagion look like a border skirmish.

i would argue that the power of the deathlords was given to them by the malfeans it is independent of them at this point. the same way exaltation is derived from the incarna but seperate.


if someone found a way to get rid of the malfeans the deathlords would jump at the opportunity unless it meant their own destruction. even if their power is seperate they still need necrotic essence to fuel it. if the underworld were to be destroyed the deathlords would fight tooth and nail to hold on unless such a destruction would somehow transform them into beings that could feed on living essence.


but chances are that the malfeans will be taken care of when Charon enters the seen and kills 7 of the deathlords (wraith the oblivion canon)

 

[Flagg]

It's not that the Neverborn refuse to die -- in fact, they really, really WANT to die -- it's that they can't.


-S

 

[Samiel]

Paradoxically, although the Neverborn are right next to Oblivion, they clearly can't just fall into it unless creation and everything else come with them. I think, and this is conjecture, that Oblivion itself is part of them, and they cannot fall into it until there's nothing else for them to rest in or upon.


As to the Deathlords/Deathknights, I think the Deathlords do in fact draw much, but not all of their power from the Malfeans. I imagine that without the Malfeans they'd be potent, powerful ghosts, but they'd probably lose a lot of their power. As an example, I point to the FaFL's inability to rebel, and his imprisonment. It seems that the dead, quiescent Malfeans can still bitchslap a distant Deathlord, and that strikes me as evidence that they can be controlled and may be beholden to the Malfeans.


The Deathknights, on the other hand, are adapted superweapons. The exaltations were and are independant agents, given theme by a god and power by a primordial. They were designed to stand alone and not depend on a god or foundation that could be undermined. Although Deathknights have weaknesses exploited by the deathlords and the malfeans, they are not actually powered by them, and the destruction of either would not destroy or cripple the Deathknight.


However, that's not to say that there wouldn't be problems or setbacks. The deathknights cannot respire in creation, and perhaps the destruction of the malfeans would destroy the underworld, which is weighed down by them, or just render it uninhabitable.


On top of that, it is arguable that the three levels of necromancy depend on certain aspects of the underworld that are there because of the malfeans. Sorcery in creation is a set of "hack codes", which allow great control over ambient essence. Necromancy on the other hand is powered by necrotic essence, but there was never any "codes" built in by deliberate design of the primordials, so presumably anything beyond the shadowlands circle is there by design of the malfeans.


Another interesting question is what happens to a Deathknight whose monstrance were destroyed? In the current incarnation, the essence would probably be OK but might suffer from bad resonance. However upon death, the essence has nowhere to go, and might just freewheel around until it finds someone it likes.

 

[Jukashi]

Perhaps an Abyssal shard without a monstrance would resume operations as per its base programmin, i.e. it would return to Lytek for trimming?


That'd suprise him...

 

[Solfi]

Paradoxically, although the Neverborn are right next to Oblivion, they clearly can't just fall into it unless creation and everything else come with them. I think, and this is conjecture, that Oblivion itself is part of them, and they cannot fall into it until there's nothing else for them to rest in or upon.

The way I see it, they will never actually fall "into the void". But when Creation is undone, they will simply cease to be (and 'the void' with them), as the Wyld rushes in to replace the calcification called 'Reality'.

As to the Deathlords/Deathknights, I think the Deathlords do in fact draw much, but not all of their power from the Malfeans. I imagine that without the Malfeans they'd be potent, powerful ghosts, but they'd probably lose a lot of their power. As an example, I point to the FaFL's inability to rebel, and his imprisonment. It seems that the dead, quiescent Malfeans can still bitchslap a distant Deathlord, and that strikes me as evidence that they can be controlled and may be beholden to the Malfeans.

I've always liked that idea as well. One point though: 'Malfean' is a term now used for the imprisoned Yozi. That was one of the goofs from 1st ed. that's been corrected for 2nd. ed. The dead Primordials are now only referred to as the 'Neverborn' (which you yourself used earlier in your post).

Another interesting question is what happens to a Deathknight whose monstrance were destroyed? In the current incarnation, the essence would probably be OK but might suffer from bad resonance. However upon death, the essence has nowhere to go, and might just freewheel around until it finds someone it likes.

... I do believe I've seen references that indicates that the destruction of a Deathknight's monstrance does in fact destroy the Deathknight, and his shard with him.


If you insist, I'll go through the Abyssal book in more detail for the specifics...

 

[Flagg]

they will simply cease to be (and 'the void' with them)

Or would the Void endure, becoming a perpetual "black hole" for Wyld energies? A big drain at the bottom of an infinite bathtub.


-S

 

[Solfi]

No... that would still be a fixed point. A set thing in the perfect fluidity of the Wyld. A 'not-Chaos' point.

 

[Flagg]

I don't understand what you're saying.


-S

 

[Solfi]

... great. Should I try it in swedish instead? :-)


If the Neverborn left the 'stain' of a void after their own destruction, that would be something of order, stagnation (well, non-existance specifically), but of the limitless potential that is the Wyld. That would still be a residue of Creation.


(In my mind, the Underworld, the Neverborn etc never seized to be part of Creation, and neither is their brand of annihilation. Their ultimate goal, however is, after all, to not have to bear the pain of existance anymore. To return everything to the chaos from whence it was spawned).

 

[Flagg]

I don't see how annihilation = order.


-S

 

[Ker'ion]

Annihilation = Pure Chaos = a new order

 

[Flagg]

Annihilation = Pure Chaos

No it doesn't.


-S

 

[Ker'ion]

If the Neverborn were to actually succeed in destroying creation, they would leave nothing behind but pure chaos, freeing the Malfeans to create a new world, but allowing them to finally die.


On a slightly related side note:


Does the Wyld extend indefinately or is it walled off by adamant or something?   And does gravity exist in the Wyld, or is it more of a spherical shape where you can walk up or downo r whatever?

 

[Solfi]

non-existance = rigid state.

On a slightly related side note:
Does the Wyld extend indefinately or is it walled off by adamant or something?

Distance is meaningless in the Wyld. The only fixed point in the Wyld is Creation. Which is basically why the Fair Folk (or these days, rather the Unshaped) wants to destroy Creation. It is a 'blemish in the perfect chaos of the Wyld'.

And does gravity exist in the Wyld' date=' or is it more of a spherical shape where you can walk up or downo r whatever?[/quote']
Yes and no, at the same time. The Wyld can be anything... and if it (the Wyld) is not busy 'being anything', it might also be manipulated by one of the Unshaped into being something of their liking. That answer seem unclear? Well, we're talking about the Fair Ones here. Everything about them is unclear...

 

[Ker'ion]

But even though they want to remove the order blemish on the Wyld, doesn't altering the form of the Wyld to their whims give it a more orderly state, thereby counteracting their desire for pure chaos.  They are a paradox unto themselves.

 

[Jukashi]

But even though they want to remove the order blemish on the Wyld' date=' doesn't altering the form of the Wyld to their whims give it a more orderly state, thereby counteracting their desire for pure chaos.  They are a paradox unto themselves.[/quote']
That's partly the point. The word "paradox" has no meaning in the Wyld. They can't contradict each other, because everything is possible in the Wyld. Anything that is, was, will be, can be or would be exists in it, as well as everything that is not. was not, will not, can not or would not exist as well. It is everything that is at all possible to exist ever as well as everything that is not possible to exist.


The Wyld eludes all reason or meaning because it has no reason or meaning. The very concepts of reason and meaning do not apply to the Wyld. Anything, even things which logically cannot coincide, can be so in the Wyld because the Wyld is everything that logic isn't... and everything that logic is, too.


Order opposes Chaos, but Chaos does not truly oppose Order; for ultimately, it is Chaos itself which creates order, and encompasses it, and destroys it; only to create it again.


By its very nature the Wyld creates that which opposes it, and that which sustains it. Both perfect and imperfect, the Wyld is naught but everything that is, with and without definition, the mother of reason and that which defies it, oppressor and liberator, for ever and ever without end or beginning or meaning.


The Wyld is. There is no more that can be said.

 

[Sherwood]

Thats deep, Jukashi.  Sounds like something a person needs to smoke a few joints to fully appreciate.   :wink:


Not that I know anything about smoking joints... ops:

 

[Solfi]

Order opposes Chaos, but Chaos does not truly oppose Order; for ultimately, it is Chaos itself which creates order, and encompasses it, and destroys it; only to create it again.

*nods*. Order is a subset of Chaos.

 

[Samiel]

And rightly you shouldn't! *points accusingly*


Solfi: It reads that the Deathlords, if truly pissed off at an Abyssal, can turf the monstrance into oblivion, which annihilates the shard and the abyssal as well. So that answers that question, but I still wonder at the hypothetical destruction of it by solar magic, which presumably wouldn't lead to void-esque destruction. Probably a free shard with a resonance problem, methinks.


Also: The Neverborn (I hadn't realised they'd ditched Malfeans..) truly want everything destroyed. Regardless of whether it can work, they want to destroy the wyld as well. Given the general effect of necrotic essence upon the wyld, I think perhaps that if they are correct the void would crystallise and annihilate the wyld like a cancer. Of course, the wyld being infinite, that would never actually lead to its destruction unless the Mouth of the Void destroys at an infinite rate.. or something.


And yes, the wyld is completely and utterly random and purified possibility. I agree however that there is a paradox inherent in the existance of thinking and plotting creatures within it that seem to be stable to a degree. This is a possibility and a likelihood in any chaotic system in actuality, where temporary patterns will emerge. In the case of the wyld, it was written somewhere that you can think of these unshaped FF as "eddies" in the infinite possibility of the wyld, self-sustaining capsules of sentient possibility... or something.


In essence, we're trying to codify something that can't be, but is. That's the thing and the beauty of the Fair Folk, and I suppose the only answer is "It just is".


In short then, no. There's no wall, and gravity only exists insofar as it must sometimes exist in a world of possibility. So does that nonexistant primal force that, like gravity, permeates everything, but turns everything it touches to pure colour.

 

[Ker'ion]

If the Fair Folk inside of the edge of the Marches are just more structured, lesser versions of the Greater Fair Folk outside of the Marches, does that mean the Greater Fair Folk are lesser versions of the Primordials?


If so, would a group of the Greater Fair Folk be able to empower themselves or possibly combine their Essences to form a new Primordial or set of Primordials?


A new Primordial war would be a fun plot device.


Especially with the freshly Exalted Solars not being prepared for war, the Realm in shambles, the Lunars spread thinly across the edge of creation, and the Sidereals not being able to see it coming due to the Wyld being outside of Fate.


:lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

If the Fair Folk inside of the edge of the Marches are just more structured, lesser versions of the Greater Fair Folk outside of the Marches, does that mean the Greater Fair Folk are lesser versions of the Primordials?
If so, would a group of the Greater Fair Folk be able to empower themselves or possibly combine their Essences to form a new Primordial or set of Primordials?


A new Primordial war would be a fun plot device.


Especially with the freshly Exalted Solars not being prepared for war, the Realm in shambles, the Lunars spread thinly across the edge of creation, and the Sidereals not being able to see it coming due to the Wyld being outside of Fate.


:lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:  :lol:  :twisted:

Actually my boy, according to First Ed canon, you're pretty much spot on. It can be done...*hides his papers away* What!?

 

[Jukashi]

Now where did those reality engines get to...?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Ironically, IN the Wyld.

 

[Ker'ion]

Actually my boy, according to First Ed canon, you're pretty much spot on. It can be done...*hides his papers away* What!?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!


Ze plot, eet thickens.