Conversation [TNW]

[SirBlazeALot]

I'm still trying to get things figured out but that's more on putting things into perspective for myself, and not a lack on your part. I get the basic idea, I believe, and that... this is going to be a bit more us writing it and less math stat stuff, but you've added numbers to things that people could quite honestly be a bit... unfair about. "My character dodged every attack or is hit by every attack"... it's hard to regulate that on pure writing so you've given us a chance to play it by actual chance and then write it into an actual cool sequence....So I think I'm getting a grasp on it. Don't test me yet though, professor; still don't think I'd pass

Yep! That's exactly why I assigned rollers to those specific things. So that we don't up with any Critical Chris's or any Ms. Never-Misses

 

[Ixacise]

Alright it's time for Papa Ixa to drop some knowledge about very basic tabletop/dice game stuff.


The relative values are nonsensical and as such are BAD DESIGN. No ifs and or buts.


You don't need them when you got the actual stats to show what they're good and bad which is the most basic thing all games of this type have. All games even if they are more story gamey versus more "mathy" as you call them, all of them have some way in which character qualities that are deemed important to that game are tied to the rules and mechanics. It's like showing versus telling in writing, you always to show cuz that's good writing. Same thing with mechanics.


And the mechanics are important because they sort of govern the rules of the universe for that game and in a meta way help establish a tone; that is to say a superhero game is gonna be different in rules than say a horror game. Cuz Superman being able to punch spooky skeleton demons while amusing isn't conducive to horror.


So lets say strength cuz that's a common quality in most games in more traditional games you get some number on some scale and you get descriptions for the numbers like I dunno 10 is superhuman and like 2 is wimpy. In something more story oriented game like FATE strong would be like his gimmick and he'd use that gimmick in many ways to affect the story or have the story cater to let him use his strength.


So back to the relative values and the Knight. The Knight is supposed to be a tanky/defensive man. Relative values are redundant cuz you could just tie it into the actual mechanics being used in this case the "rollers" which are stats. Now I'd say represent it by giving him decent defensive stat. However you mentioned that this defensive stat is for dodging and cuz he's in heavy armor he can't into dodge. Well guess compadre I got an easy fix, let's make that armor mechanically important in this case let's make it so the type of armor determines a certain amount of damage that gets reduced. Again don't tell us with these descriptors, show us with the mechanics. And doubly so with something like combat which tends to be the most detailed thing in most PnP rpgs.


Now going back to classes I didn't contradict myself I just didn't know what the hell was going with the class mechanics. But now I know and you're doing it wrong. You get some sort of points to buy stats and stuff with or you get like classes which are archetypes that are predetermined in what type stuff you're good and bad at.


Classes are old school method of character definition that comes from Dungeons and Dragons which itself used it cuz it was using the rules of a wargame. Think Risk but more complex or Fire Embem which works well and that wargame had classes for the different unit types you'd field.


Now I know what you're thinking, "But Papa Ixa I don't want to bog this game down in long scary unfun rules out of the ass!" Well you don't need to drown them in rules out of the ass. You got plenty of things you can simply in the mechanics.


I mean you already have the weapon triangle add a reduction to the stats, and yes I am calling the rollers stats because that's what they are in all but name. For certain stat weaknesses just do something like double the damage dealt.


With classes it's equally simply just give appropriate roller mods. Like those FE Classes all have an archetype of like doing one thing good like being offensive, defensive, magical, delicious, etc. And then the different branches sort of shuffle their stats around and or change their focus like the magic/fighter hybrid. So instead of something like this:


Health: Very Low


Attack: Low


Defense: Very Low


Magic: Very Low


Resistance: Very Low


Movement: Low


Do something like this:


Health: 100


Attack: 10


Defense: 5


Magic: 5


Resistance: 5


Movement: 4 spaces


Skill(s): Blah blah blah


An actual example from a game that does classes but handles it quite simply and sensibly is Meikyuu Kingdom. Where char gen is supposed fast and easy because Japanese PnP games run on tight shift and don't want to bog things down.


In meikyuu kingdom you define your character with like 3 things: Starting Items, Stats, and Abilities which are in turn guided by your class and Job (Subclass)


For stats you get


Wit represents your cleverness and your ability to think on your feet. It is used when dealing with goods and money, and when your intelligence and knowledge are being tested. Wit is used to determine your Capacity and Starting Equipment, for making Command Checks


and Strategy Checks, etc...


Charisma represents your looks, your personality, and your ability to influence others. It is used when trying to garner favor with someone, and to create a positive atmosphere.


Charisma is used to determine your Capacity and your maximum number of Followers, for


Exchanging with Monsters, etc...


Quest is your ability to find things. It is used for avoiding traps and monsters' attacks, and for


discovering hidden information and objects.Quest is used to determine your Defense, for Command Checks and Search Checks, etc...


Warfare is your skill, spirit, and courage in battle. It is used when you want to hack through your enemies, or to target them with your firearms. Warfare is used to determine your HP, for Attack Checks and increasing Damage, the number of enemies you can handle in Combat, etc...


For classes you got 5: King, Vizier, Knight, Oracle, & Ninja. They all have their specific purposes and focuses which are mechanically highlighted with those 3 things.


<p><a href="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2016_01/SWAG.png.ebfe7ad20b7a75b33ef7e62836a1e417.png" class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image"><img data-fileid="102842" src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2016_01/SWAG.png.ebfe7ad20b7a75b33ef7e62836a1e417.png" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" alt=""></a></p>


See this swag motherfucker? He's the Vizier aka the smart guy who's the second in command and who's all about handling the party's resources and supporting them.


How do the mechanics represent this? With the three things I mentioned above. First his stats since he's the smart guy he gets a 4 in wits which is the highest number all classes give and then he gets the following number to put into the other stats 2,2,1 meaning he's okayish at two things and crap at 1. So if I wanted to be fighty I'd put the 2s into warfare and quest and leave the talking to the Oracle who's the smooth talker. I get a Dagger because hurrhurr backstabbing advisor and two items that are supportive, and I get skills that use party resources and or are supportive. Like one that lets me use the collective goodwill of the people to help improve dice rolls.


The Job does the same thing by giving you a bonus stat in one area, more items, a special skill, and access to some skill groups and they're meant to reinforce or diversify depending on what you get. So lets say I get warrior. Awesome I get a point in warfare, a giant sword, access to the melee & ranged skill group which lets me do cool fighting stuff, and a special ability that lets me burn a special point to choose up to my warfare's number of enemies and attack them all at once.


And since I'm talking about the game. The things you fight are built as simple as the characters are.


Slime


Beast


Level 1


Warfare 0


Range 0


Damage 2


Defense 5


HP 5


Personality Foolish


Materials Meat


"Swallow (Monster)" (Permanent) If you score a critical success on an Attack Check, you may swallow the target. A target that has been swallowed takes 1 damage at the end of the Round and cannot move until your HP becomes 0. Whenever you take damage, the swallowed character also takes 1 point of damage.


So you go it's name, family type, level, it's attack bonus, its reach, defensive stat, life, thing it drops when killed, abilities, damage, and it's tactics. Nothing terribly complex.


Anyway this is a fairly long post but the basics is that relevant stuff for the game is tied to mechanics and you don't need that dumb relevant value crap when already got preexisting stats on top of skills which define the character in fighting which is important because Fire Emblem is a strategy rpg involving lots of fighting. And that you don't need to make things terribly complex to fill out the characters mechanically.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Alright it's time for Papa Ixa to drop some knowledge about very basic tabletop/dice game stuff.
The relative values are nonsensical and as such are BAD DESIGN. No ifs and or buts.


You don't need them when you got the actual stats to show what they're good and bad which is the most basic thing all games of this type have. All games even if they are more story gamey versus more "mathy" as you call them, all of them have some way in which character qualities that are deemed important to that game are tied to the rules and mechanics. It's like showing versus telling in writing, you always to show cuz that's good writing. Same thing with mechanics.


And the mechanics are important because they sort of govern the rules of the universe for that game and in a meta way help establish a tone; that is to say a superhero game is gonna be different in rules than say a horror game. Cuz Superman being able to punch spooky skeleton demons while amusing isn't conducive to horror.


So lets say strength cuz that's a common quality in most games in more traditional games you get some number on some scale and you get descriptions for the numbers like I dunno 10 is superhuman and like 2 is wimpy. In something more story oriented game like FATE strong would be like his gimmick and he'd use that gimmick in many ways to affect the story or have the story cater to let him use his strength.


So back to the relative values and the Knight. The Knight is supposed to be a tanky/defensive man. Relative values are redundant cuz you could just tie it into the actual mechanics being used in this case the "rollers" which are stats. Now I'd say represent it by giving him decent defensive stat. However you mentioned that this defensive stat is for dodging and cuz he's in heavy armor he can't into dodge. Well guess compadre I got an easy fix, let's make that armor mechanically important in this case let's make it so the type of armor determines a certain amount of damage that gets reduced. Again don't tell us with these descriptors, show us with the mechanics. And doubly so with something like combat which tends to be the most detailed thing in most PnP rpgs.


Now going back to classes I didn't contradict myself I just didn't know what the hell was going with the class mechanics. But now I know and you're doing it wrong. You get some sort of points to buy stats and stuff with or you get like classes which are archetypes that are predetermined in what type stuff you're good and bad at.


Classes are old school method of character definition that comes from Dungeons and Dragons which itself used it cuz it was using the rules of a wargame. Think Risk but more complex or Fire Embem which works well and that wargame had classes for the different unit types you'd field.


Now I know what you're thinking, "But Papa Ixa I don't want to bog this game down in long scary unfun rules out of the ass!" Well you don't need to drown them in rules out of the ass. You got plenty of things you can simply in the mechanics.


I mean you already have the weapon triangle add a reduction to the stats, and yes I am calling the rollers stats because that's what they are in all but name. For certain stat weaknesses just do something like double the damage dealt.


With classes it's equally simply just give appropriate roller mods. Like those FE Classes all have an archetype of like doing one thing good like being offensive, defensive, magical, delicious, etc. And then the different branches sort of shuffle their stats around and or change their focus like the magic/fighter hybrid. So instead of something like this:


Health: Very Low


Attack: Low


Defense: Very Low


Magic: Very Low


Resistance: Very Low


Movement: Low


Do something like this:


Health: 100


Attack: 10


Defense: 5


Magic: 5


Resistance: 5


Movement: 4 spaces


Skill(s): Blah blah blah


An actual example from a game that does classes but handles it quite simply and sensibly is Meikyuu Kingdom. Where char gen is supposed fast and easy because Japanese PnP games run on tight shift and don't want to bog things down.


In meikyuu kingdom you define your character with like 3 things: Starting Items, Stats, and Abilities which are in turn guided by your class and Job (Subclass)


For stats you get


Wit represents your cleverness and your ability to think on your feet. It is used when dealing with goods and money, and when your intelligence and knowledge are being tested. Wit is used to determine your Capacity and Starting Equipment, for making Command Checks


and Strategy Checks, etc...


Charisma represents your looks, your personality, and your ability to influence others. It is used when trying to garner favor with someone, and to create a positive atmosphere.


Charisma is used to determine your Capacity and your maximum number of Followers, for


Exchanging with Monsters, etc...


Quest is your ability to find things. It is used for avoiding traps and monsters' attacks, and for


discovering hidden information and objects.Quest is used to determine your Defense, for Command Checks and Search Checks, etc...


Warfare is your skill, spirit, and courage in battle. It is used when you want to hack through your enemies, or to target them with your firearms. Warfare is used to determine your HP, for Attack Checks and increasing Damage, the number of enemies you can handle in Combat, etc...


For classes you got 5: King, Vizier, Knight, Oracle, & Ninja. They all have their specific purposes and focuses which are mechanically highlighted with those 3 things.


View attachment 229170


See this swag motherfucker? He's the Vizier aka the smart guy who's the second in command and who's all about handling the party's resources and supporting them.


How do the mechanics represent this? With the three things I mentioned above. First his stats since he's the smart guy he gets a 4 in wits which is the highest number all classes give and then he gets the following number to put into the other stats 2,2,1 meaning he's okayish at two things and crap at 1. So if I wanted to be fighty I'd put the 2s into warfare and quest and leave the talking to the Oracle who's the smooth talker. I get a Dagger because hurrhurr backstabbing advisor and two items that are supportive, and I get skills that use party resources and or are supportive. Like one that lets me use the collective goodwill of the people to help improve dice rolls.


The Job does the same thing by giving you a bonus stat in one area, more items, a special skill, and access to some skill groups and they're meant to reinforce or diversify depending on what you get. So lets say I get warrior. Awesome I get a point in warfare, a giant sword, access to the melee & ranged skill group which lets me do cool fighting stuff, and a special ability that lets me burn a special point to choose up to my warfare's number of enemies and attack them all at once.


And since I'm talking about the game. The things you fight are built as simple as the characters are.


Slime


Beast


Level 1


Warfare 0


Range 0


Damage 2


Defense 5


HP 5


Personality Foolish


Materials Meat


"Swallow (Monster)" (Permanent) If you score a critical success on an Attack Check, you may swallow the target. A target that has been swallowed takes 1 damage at the end of the Round and cannot move until your HP becomes 0. Whenever you take damage, the swallowed character also takes 1 point of damage.


So you go it's name, family type, level, it's attack bonus, its reach, defensive stat, life, thing it drops when killed, abilities, damage, and it's tactics. Nothing terribly complex.


Anyway this is a fairly long post but the basics is that relevant stuff for the game is tied to mechanics and you don't need that dumb relevant value crap when already got preexisting stats on top of skills which define the character in fighting which is important because Fire Emblem is a strategy rpg involving lots of fighting. And that you need to make things terribly complex to fill out the characters mechanically.

Aight so yo, check it.


Fuck all that. Fuck all of that noise. And don't talk down to me, you're not my papa.


Now look, I know you're trying to be helpful and shit, but you're literally just ignoring how the game works. Not even trying. Lemme ask you something. When you flip on Skyrim do you tell Skyrim,


"Hey hold on Skyrim, Papa Ixa played Fable. And this ain't how shit works in Fable. Bethesda, this game is badly designed cause it's not it's not like this other game! IT HAS TO BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS OTHER GAME CAUSE THEY'RE BOTH PLAYED WITH XBOX CONTROLLERS!!!!!!!111!!"


That makes no sense dog.


There's literally no difference in using an abstract number to represent what the Relative System says clearly.


10=Very High. Is it that hard to make that leap in your mind?


You completely ignored my statement to disregard other tabletop games and now you're gonna roll up in here talking about "it's bad design cause it's not like games I've played before I'm an expert lul"


You're full of shit.


You refuse to acknowledge that this is something different, perhaps, idk, innovative even. It's not going to play like how you want it to play just because you want it to play that way. It's gonna play the way I made it to play. Seeing as you're the only one who doesn't seem to get the game and can't grasp the concept of doing something different, you can go ahead and excuse yourself from the thread Papa Ixa.

 

[Ixacise]

Ok little man

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Ok little man

 

[Orikanyo]

Right, that said and done.


Shits coming along, for the lord atleast, still gotta do the long typing stuff like personality and history, but thats just sitting down and writing up shit. otherwise, the annoying shit is outa the way.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Right, that said and done.
Shits coming along, for the lord atleast, still gotta do the long typing stuff like personality and history, but thats just sitting down and writing up shit. otherwise, the annoying shit is outa the way.

Swaggy

 

[RubyRose]

Workin' on my characters too, at the moment... Fuuun

 

[SirBlazeALot]

*hype intensifies*


too lazy to go get the gif.

 

[RubyRose]

Hey Blaze, I'm gonna open Ranger up to someone else... The personality/lifestyle I was going for with the character didn't matchup in the end so I'm gonna keep the face claim and try a different route... more then likely see about taking the Lord of Herranow spot if that's chill.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Hey Blaze, I'm gonna open Ranger up to someone else... The personality/lifestyle I was going for with the character didn't matchup in the end so I'm gonna keep the face claim and try a different route... more then likely see about taking the Lord of Herranow spot if that's chill.

That's 100% chill

 

[RubyRose]

That's 100% chill

Beautiful. Thanks

 

[Orikanyo]

Cool! Now all we need is the last lord, the one with the nation of heathens- I mean all-soulists.

 

[theplasticdemon]

Cool! Now all we need is the last lord, the one with the nation of heathens- I mean all-soulists.

let's put the branded and the elves together in the heathen bunch too xD

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Cool! Now all we need is the last lord, the one with the nation of heathens- I mean all-soulists.

Need dat rebel too

 

[Orikanyo]

Ah yes, the other heathens.


But with a purpose it seems, i wonder, once they win will they be ready to play the grand game? War is one beast, but politics holds it's leash.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Ah yes, the other heathens.
But with a purpose it seems, i wonder, once they win will they be ready to play the grand game? War is one beast, but politics holds it's leash.

That's a 5 star metaphor right there

 

[Orikanyo]

That's a 5 star metaphor right there

I try my best.


Ah yes, the speshal weapons lords get, no breaking point like the falchion or limited use? or does that crap matter anymore because it's needless shenanigans?

 

[SirBlazeALot]

I try my best.
Ah yes, the speshal weapons lords get, no breaking point like the falchion or limited use? or does that crap matter anymore because it's needless shenanigans?

Yeah no more breaking weapons and shit. As much as I like that feature it's just hella much to keep track of.

 

[Orikanyo]

Alrighty, i had a sudden thought, we can make siege weaponry... and use it in battle...


literally we can make the transporter's carriage into a tank.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Alrighty, i had a sudden thought, we can make siege weaponry... and use it in battle...
literally we can make the transporter's carriage into a tank.

Fuck yeah dude we just need an Engineer to pimp it out

 

[Orikanyo]

gaaaaah... dman it now i wana do it...


problem is, I'll be making three characters.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

gaaaaah... dman it now i wana do it...
problem is, I'll be making three characters.

by the time we're done we're probably all gonna have hella bros, bro. plus you know like your Jester and stuff won't be officially on the team for a minute anyway right? I say the more the merrier.

 

[Orikanyo]

true enough, its just a matter of.. i gotta do a 7 page report by tuesday, haven't started that yet... I'll start it tomorrow.. maybe... first half.


I might make one, in time atleast.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

true enough, its just a matter of.. i gotta do a 7 page report by tuesday, haven't started that yet... I'll start it tomorrow.. maybe... first half.
I might make one, in time atleast.

Welp there's plenty of time cause I still need to find two other peeps to partake. If I were you I'd just start haulin' ass on that report