News are any of yall worried about Ukraine?

[Syntra]

I don't live in Eastern Europe, but I am of Eastern European background (both Ukrainian and Russian if you must know) so I think I do have a place to speak here.

Frankly, you really don't. I am an actual Eastern European, I live here NOW and it's not a fun little rhetoric exercise for me. I see the suffering of Ukrainian refugees daily, and my historic experience tells me that I'm threatened, too. You having some Eastern European blood frankly means nothing. You have no idea what it's like to live here.

You can feel free to disagree all you want, but I just don't see how forcing capitalism on people is defense. Capitalism destroys millions of lives, including my own. There's obviously no easy solution to that, but getting cozy with the biggest imperialist empire in the modern world is not a solution. Again, this is just my opinion.

Yeah, I do disagree with that. If you lived under the communist regime we had, you wouldn't idealize it like this, either. Capitalism may be fucked, but so is viewing this issue solely through the lens of 'capitalism bad.'

 

[Jannah]

Frankly, you really don't. I am an actual Eastern European, I live here NOW and it's not a fun little rhetoric exercise for me. I see the suffering of Ukrainian refugees daily, and my historic experience tells me that I'm threatened, too. You having some Eastern European blood frankly means nothing. You have no idea what it's like to live here.


Yeah, I do disagree with that. If you lived under the communist regime we had, you wouldn't idealize it like this, either. Capitalism may be fucked, but so is viewing this issue solely through the lens of 'capitalism bad.'

I don't idolize Soviet style communism, modern Russia, or NATO. That's precisely why I think if NATO gets involved nobody wins. However, the current situation is not exactly ideal either. I'm aware of the atrocities Russia has been responsible for and Putin himself is a little wannabe tyrant so yes, I do not side with them. I just wish both the Russian regime and the corrupt Eastern European regimes would fall and be replaced with something that actually benefits everyone. You know, so war and suffering can be avoided. It's the civilians who suffer every time, not the actual tyrants who deserve it.

 

[Syntra]

I don't idolize Soviet style communism, modern Russia, or NATO. That's precisely why I think if NATO gets involved nobody wins. However, the current situation is not exactly ideal either. I'm aware of the atrocities Russia has been responsible for and Putin himself is a little wannabe tyrant so yes, I do not side with them. I just wish both the Russian regime and the corrupt Eastern European regimes would fall and be replaced with something that actually benefits everyone. You know, so war and suffering can be avoided. It's the civilians who suffer every time, not the actual tyrants who deserve it.

Alright, I've said my piece. I won't be replying to you anymore, as you keep sidestepping the points that aren't convenient to you and I can tell that this is getting nowhere. I'll just say this: it's VERY easy for you guys to speak of regime changes, war conflicts and such from your comfy Western countries, where none of this applies to you unless nuclear weapons somehow enter the equation. Maybe consider how your viewpoint is impacted by that?

I am open to continuing this discussion in PMs if you're interested, btw, but I doubt we will reach some consensus.

 

[Jannah]

Alright, I've said my piece. I won't be replying to you anymore, as you keep sidestepping the points that aren't convenient to you and I can tell that this is getting nowhere. I'll just say this: it's VERY easy for you guys to speak of regime changes, war conflicts and such from your comfy Western countries, where none of this applies to you unless nuclear weapons somehow enter the equation. Maybe consider how your viewpoint is impacted by that?

I am open to continuing this discussion in PMs if you're interested, btw, but I doubt we will reach some consensus.

This is fair. I think this is one of those times when it's best to agree to disagree. Also, likewise on my PM's being open. I am open to discussions like these, provided everyone participating remains civil.

 

[Chordling]

This is a general reminder that if the community is unable to have a mature and respectful dialogue then the staff will have to consider to removing participants/closing the thread.

 

[Malphaestus]

Eh, I feel like calling NATO "imperialist" is an exaggeration. None of NATO's current members were forced into the organization, despite some people believing the CIA infiltrated former Soviet-controlled nations when there's plenty of evidence to support that such a thing never happened. Former Soviet and Eastern Bloc nations were abused and economically underdeveloped under the Soviet regime. Their citizens had few rights and freedoms. After these nations gained independence, they wanted to join NATO to ensure they would never face such horrors again.

NATO simply had its doors wide open. It's far from "Imperialist", and there's no evidence to suggest it has committed anything related to imperialism. In fact, if NATO was really imperialist, then why do most members fail to meet the military spending requirement, which is 2% of their GDP? If it was truly imperialist, these nations would be forced to maintain this requirement. Yet, they aren't. NATO has every right to accept nations that wish to join the organization, it has a right to expand as long as it isn't forced. What Russia is doing to Ukraine is imperialist. An unprovoked attack against the Ukrainian people, in order to benefit the Russian government. That's imperialism.

Seeing as what came after this comment was attempts to gatekeep a global economic and political happening, I will deign myself the right to wholly ignore it, as that carries the same dangers as the manufacture of myth. For everyone's continued benefit, in the pursuit of discoursing about this truly horrific event, I will continue without further referencing it.

A quick additive note, the CIA infiltrating places and swaying their alliegances is factual, and has occured. I see no reason for why it may not have happened for places which they would, doubtlessly, wish to influence on the precipice of the 'Bear.' Providing factual accounts of their doing so will be of no one's benefit, and the state controls, the US', which information is provided to the people. In addition, I would stay clear of waxing poetic about evil commited by Soviet hands when one stands no more moral, were one to merely dive deeper. 'Evil' is a character of a million faces.

Ultimately, the 2% GDP obligation towards defense has no meaning for the NATO's qualification towards "Imperialism," as you wished to quote it, though with a different bending. One may think it does, the perception of self-sovereignty certainly does appear to sway the topic, but it is but a mirage. Has no meaning, for what reason is there for 2% GDP obligations towards military expenditure being relevant to a topic involving national influence over other nations through metrics both economic, cultural, and political. None, is the answer, and the question was rhetoric.

Rights for expansion are equally pointless. It does not matter whether influence spreads willfully, if it's effects are nonetheless prevailing.

That being said, and laid out properly, I will pursue this topic. And, yes, NATO is imperialistic. And I will elaborate as for why I believe so, as the 'other option' does not need to be the 'good option' when it is the only option for a nation to tread. I will initiate by stating that, for all the fear that is spread regarding the Soviet threat, it was, ironically, less of a threat than US involvement in foreign territories. It sought, like any nation during an era where war was, in fact, a political option, to solidify it's borders, and the ability to pursue isolationism. America, as a response, converged into all these theatres, and combated the Soviets through methods both conventional, and asymmetric. For those unaware of the difference here, conventional, in this context, means regular forces and the doctrines, strategies, and tactics involved therein. Whereas asymmetric is the supporting and supplying of militia, rebels, and seccessionists. Nonconventional pursuit of indirect opposition for a perceived threat. Perfectly exemplified through Afghanistan, the middle-east, and central america. South Korea, Vietnam, South America, and African holdouts. The list is quite far-reaching, as you may notice. The list for the Soviet Union is less, but nonetheless unacceptable. One war is one war too many, but I believe truthfully that the Russian Federation at present is more dangerous, whilst recognizing that NATO may be the only option for certain nations. I am, also, not meaning to imply that the Soviet Union merely pursued one war of aggression in it's existence either. But NATO's legacy is not a faultless one, as no doubt we all agree. But it is devoid of rosy ideals, like some may propose.

That is the greatest legacy of NATO, and whilst the Warsaw Pact is not an alliegance to be admired, and the legacy of evil persists, it is not a unilateral evil for which there is no opposition. Whilst all US pursuits will not necessitate unilateral involvement, American influence is nonetheless forced upon entry. Politics are painted in grey, and for as much as people wish to demonize politicians for their word-wranglery, they oft forget, in that same moment, of what their nations do, and what their nations truly stand for. Propaganda is real, and it is everywhere, even in our 'civilized' corner of the world. Some are blind to it, and some see it where it does not exist. Truly few recognize it for what it truly is, when it truly is. I am not attempting to paint the picture that anyone who views NATO favourably is under such a spell, but I am trying to paint the idea that a perceived notion, which is logically drawn, can be tainted by legacies which yet remain, and indirect forces which can be accounted for. This is the first step in my rebuttal, though I suppose it is more of a disagreement on the minute, but nonetheless wide-reaching, idea that NATO is what it proposes itself to be. It is not.

At risk of diverging the contents of this thread, I will explain now why it is imperialist, under my perception. Before finalizing with a comment about the ongoing conflict, so as to return the dialogue to it's due course. I will state now, before going further, that any responses to this post will be ignored, as I do not believe it to be helpful for the purposes of this thread, to further sway it beyond what I will hypocritically do now. This is for myself, and hopefully, for some who read it. Changing minds is not my specialty, and I gave it up long ago.

NATO, lead by the US in all de facto manners, is an invitation into the western market. This is undeniable, and the EU is but a subsection of this. Though I do not view the EU with the critical lens which I reserve for NATO in this post (as I am an idealistic sort on the fate of Europe, desiring unification), it is proof of this. The EU was the response to the second world war, supported in it's construction by American influence, and anti-war sentiments after two of the most savage wars riddled it's landscape. This is understandable, for the deaths which it endured were of no small sum, so the peace it had earned should be prolonged as far as possible. But, due to American influence in it's recouperation, and across the central european region, and the isles, capitalism spread. Which is to American benefit. There is no gifts between nations, it is all a matter of dealings. The larger the market, the master of the market, the US, will benefit. And the spreading of this is what we now refer to as neo-colonialism, and neo-imperialism, which are very real concepts.

NATO spreads, America enters. This is as basic a process as anything else in this world. It is, frankly, fact. And, as NATO is forced to do, certain wars waged, and certain threats dealt with, will demand all of it's members to commit. With, or without, their peoples' consent. This occured with the War on Terror, and will happen again, at some point. The idea that peace will last has, after all, now been shattered. And it would be willful even before now, to think so.

With exposure to the US, you are dragged into the western sphere, and will interact with either European, or US, influences. Whilst I view the EU higher than the US, it is no less benefitting from this arrangement, and is neither a moral institution. Nations are not, no matter how they portray themselves. It benefits as much as any capitalist nation from the spreading of the market, and as the centers of these economies lie in the US, and in the EU, they also engage in neo-colonialism, and neo-imperialism. Proxy wars are another embodimen of neo-imperialism, which can be spotted in all manner of places, were one simply to look. We are allied to all manner of dubious places, for purposes of economy. Economy is power, and the economy is built on capitalism and resources. Globalism is to the benefit of the US, and the EU. Globalism is to the benefit of China, and all great powers. But Putin works with old books, and old values. A war waged, and a nation ruined for decades to come. He did not benefit like some nations had from capitalism, or the global market, because of various reasons. Soviet emnity amongst them. Russia has, after all, always been on it's own. Left to deal with their own devices, until the Union or an external force intrudes. A whole other world, a whole other system, which was corrupted since inception by time and by ambition. This is not to say that Russia did not wage wars, it did, but it all seemed so far away.

Now we stand today, Russia at war with a hapless Ukraine, an unfortunate party in the perceived divide, wholly manufactured, between east and west. On the precipice of the grand market, and a member of it were they to magically win. The hypocrisy of pursuing their joining with the EU on the precipice of defeat speaks for the amorality of western sovereignship. The war is played for benefit, because it is insane were Putin to invade elsewhere, and everyone is aware of it.

We are common people, normal people. We are influenced by the events at play, but do not control them. We cannot, unless we chose to join together, and force it. But we are divided, and always will be. That is the fact of the mortal condition, individuality, and many other things. Capitalism is not perfect, and no capitalist would make it out to be, were they not to benefit from it. But, they are so subsumed within it's mucuous that there is no other awareness of anything besides it. Everything appears so evil, and hostile, so it must be the only choice. It will never be, the idea that it is, again, wholly manufactured. There will come something after, inevitably, unless we doom ourselves before then. And were so to be the case, capitalism would play part in this event, like anything else would have, except the individual mind. The great paradox of an individualist world, is that no individual is powerful without the influence of that which the masses have accomplished, or provided.

Some may presume my alliegance from these words, but I will assure you, that your perception of me is wrong. All I want, and ever have wanted, is for people to be happy. War is a detriment to that, as many other things are, and I am no stranger to my own situation being preferential to others' due to the benefits I receive from the usage of so many others, in complex schemes beyond my fathoming. I hope, however, that Russia fails with all I can, that the Ukraine makes do with the Russian seizure of two meaningless 'republics,' and do not play prideful on the negotition table. The 44,3 million people of Ukraine, unfortunately, will have to make do. War destroys, it does not create. Hopefully, however, people will be able to survive this dark time in the years to come.

 

[Pretty Little Creature]

oh wow how things have evolved over the past weeks
like this actually blows my mind how you watch history unfold in a matter of weeks

I'm just going to add. Not one ounce of any suffering I have endured will amount to the suffering of people directly impacted by war. It is atrocious. War is atrocious. Lives impacted by this conflict have a justified reason to be upset, angry, outraged, disgusted. In the end, nothing will ever be enough because lives have been permanently changed.

I'm not political but I do understand empathy and anger and yes I am scared

 

[Pumpkin Spice Cyanide]

I'm of the camp that doesn't pretend Russia is the only one acting up. Ukraine was doing some weird things between East and West for decades and maybe them having U.S. funded bio-research labs and then joining NATO while being positioned on Russia's doorstep was cause for alarm? Not that i condone military invasion :T

The fact it's pretty hard to tell what's propaganda and what isn't makes me unwilling to commit to one view or the other.

 

[Jannah]

I'm of the camp that doesn't pretend Russia is the only one acting up. Ukraine was doing some weird things between East and West for decades and maybe them having U.S. funded bio-research labs and then joining NATO while being positioned on Russia's doorstep was cause for alarm? Not that i condone military invasion :T

The fact it's pretty hard to tell what's propaganda and what isn't makes me unwilling to commit to one view or the other.

Yea, pretty much. While I do condemn the invasion Ukraine is not the innocent victim the west is making it out to be. Not entirely.

 

[Peacemaker .45]

Yea, pretty much. While I do condemn the invasion Ukraine is not the innocent victim the west is making it out to be. Not entirely.

Nothing is ever so simple as “this side good, this side bad.” There’s a lot that happened prior to the events we are watching now. But additionally, the amount of propaganda is staggering on both sides. And I have thoroughly seen both side’s propaganda. This does make it hard to say what the truth actually is. But in general, I take no position in supporting one over the other. My position is simply that I do not want to see Europeans in another war fighting each other. And any such war where this happens amongst Europeans is a tragedy, especially for the civilians involved in the conflict.

 

[Jannah]

Nothing is ever so simple as “this side good, this side bad.” There’s a lot that happened prior to the events we are watching now. But additionally, the amount of propaganda is staggering on both sides. And I have thoroughly seen both side’s propaganda. This does make it hard to say what the truth actually is. But in general, I take no position in supporting one over the other. My position is simply that I do not want to see Europeans in another war fighting each other. And any such war where this happens amongst Europeans is a tragedy, especially for the civilians involved in the conflict.

Yep. I'm mostly worried about the civilians on both sides and those who fighting who don't even want to be. Plenty of Russian soldiers are deserting because they don't want to fight this war.

 

[Ozron]

then joining NATO while being positioned on Russia's doorstep was cause for alarm?

I'm not entirely sure why this myth continues. Yes, there's this general belief that Ukraine would have joined NATO, but it's false. Why? Because Ukraine fails to even fulfill NATO's requirements for membership, to begin with. Could they have worked with NATO? Sure. But they could have never joined the alliance.

maybe them having U.S. funded bio-research labs

False, that's just Russian propaganda and Putin making up facts. There were no bio-research labs in Ukraine funded by the United States. Again, these are just lies by the Russian government to justify this invasion. And there's no proper evidence that can be fact-checked that can back this claim up.

Yea, pretty much. While I do condemn the invasion Ukraine is not the innocent victim the west is making it out to be. Not entirely.

It is? It was invaded with no real reason by Russia back in 2014 when Russia took and illegally annexed Crimea. And now Russia is invading them to completely destroy the idea of an independent Ukrainian state. Is Ukraine a perfect angel? No. No nation is. But in this situation, it is indeed innocent.

Currently, Ukraine seems to be holding. The Russian advance has been slowing and Ukraine has even pushed into some areas, for example, there are rumors that Ukraine has encircled a Russian army near Kyiv. For a bit, I thought Ukraine would just lose, right? But the more this war goes on, the more I think this will end in a Pyrrhic victory. No one will get what they completely want. Russia might get some territories, but Ukraine would still continue on as an independent nation.

 

[Vinegar3]

Definitely. It's tragic to see how Ukrainians are displaced from their homes as a result of the missile strikes and forced to seek refuge elsewhere, losing everything they once had because of this war and having to start over. Hopefully the countries they'll go to will do enough to accommodate them, which I feel isn't too farfetched of an idea considering how widespread support is for Ukraine.

 

[Jannah]

It is? It was invaded with no real reason by Russia back in 2014 when Russia took and illegally annexed Crimea. And now Russia is invading them to completely destroy the idea of an independent Ukrainian state. Is Ukraine a perfect angel? No. No nation is. But in this situation, it is indeed innocent.

Currently, Ukraine seems to be holding. The Russian advance has been slowing and Ukraine has even pushed into some areas, for example, there are rumors that Ukraine has encircled a Russian army near Kyiv. For a bit, I thought Ukraine would just lose, right? But the more this war goes on, the more I think this will end in a Pyrrhic victory. No one will get what they completely want. Russia might get some territories, but Ukraine would still continue on as an independent nation.

Things are more complex than just "Russian invaded Crimea!" They did, yes, but then of course there's the whole mess going on in Eastern Ukraine. The Donbas region, which is full of ethnic Russians. They basically broke away, or tried to, and then Ukraine started shelling them.

 

[Ozron]

Things are more complex than just "Russian invaded Crimea!" They did, yes, but then of course there's the whole mess going on in Eastern Ukraine. The Donbas region, which is full of ethnic Russians. They basically broke away, or tried to, and then Ukraine started shelling them.

Yes, but the Donbas rebellion was funded by the Russian Government. How do you think it broke off in the first place? And it just so happens that Donbas is right by Russia, is that a coincidence? What else do you do when a region rebels against you, just say "Ok, have a good time!"? Any nation would have attacked a rebelling region that was a part of them, that's how civil wars work.

 

[Syntra]

I'm not entirely sure why this myth continues. Yes, there's this general belief that Ukraine would have joined NATO, but it's false. Why? Because Ukraine fails to even fulfill NATO's requirements for membership, to begin with. Could they have worked with NATO? Sure. But they could have never joined the alliance.


False, that's just Russian propaganda and Putin making up facts. There were no bio-research labs in Ukraine funded by the United States. Again, these are just lies by the Russian government to justify this invasion. And there's no proper evidence that can be fact-checked that can back this claim up.


It is? It was invaded with no real reason by Russia back in 2014 when Russia took and illegally annexed Crimea. And now Russia is invading them to completely destroy the idea of an independent Ukrainian state. Is Ukraine a perfect angel? No. No nation is. But in this situation, it is indeed innocent.

Currently, Ukraine seems to be holding. The Russian advance has been slowing and Ukraine has even pushed into some areas, for example, there are rumors that Ukraine has encircled a Russian army near Kyiv. For a bit, I thought Ukraine would just lose, right? But the more this war goes on, the more I think this will end in a Pyrrhic victory. No one will get what they completely want. Russia might get some territories, but Ukraine would still continue on as an independent nation.

It's mindboggling how people just straight up swallow Russian propaganda, lmao. The truly hilarious thing is that the talking points... haven't even changed. Like, I saw some screenshots of Cold War era propaganda materials written in my native language and it's literally all the same, with mainly (some of the) names being changed. Good luck explaining it to people, though.

 

[Jannah]

Yes, but the Donbas rebellion was funded by the Russian Government. How do you think it broke off in the first place? And it just so happens that Donbas is right by Russia, is that a coincidence? What else do you do when a region rebels against you, just say "Ok, have a good time!"? Any nation would have attacked a rebelling region that was a part of them, that's how civil wars work.

Anyway, I think the main point I was trying to make is that this conflict is not so black and white as both sides try to make it out to be. There's plenty of fault on both sides. Additionally, both countries are led by incredibly corrupt regimes and have poor living standards for the average person, thus nobody seeks to gain anything from this war except for the billionaires and oligarchs in power. Certainly western corporations are profiting off it too since many of them are sending weapons to Ukraine.

So yes, while the invasion should be condemned I primarily stand with the civilians. Plenty of Russian civilians have been fined and arrested for protesting against the war, but the western media will rarely even mention things like that as it doesn't fit their narrative. Almost nobody in Russia wants this war except for Putin and his cronies.

 

[Ozron]

Anyway, I think the main point I was trying to make is that this conflict is not so black and white as both sides try to make it out to be. There's plenty of fault on both sides. Additionally, both countries are led by incredibly corrupt regimes and have poor living standards for the average person, thus nobody seeks to gain anything from this war except for the billionaires and oligarchs in power. Certainly western corporations are profiting off it too since many of them are sending weapons to Ukraine.

So yes, while the invasion should be condemned I primarily stand with the civilians. Plenty of Russian civilians have been fined and arrested for protesting against the war, but the western media will rarely even mention things like that as it doesn't fit their narrative. Almost nobody in Russia wants this war except for Putin and his cronies.

But that's what I fail to understand. When you say there's plenty of fault on both sides, what has Ukraine done? Living standards in Ukraine have greatly improved ever since it gained independence back when the Soviets collapsed. Sure, living standards in Ukraine are still poor compared to the West, but that's simply because the West had plenty of time to develop compared to Ukraine. You do have a point about corruption, Ukraine ranking 122nd out of 180 nations, but Ukraine has been improving. Ukraine's government and corruption are nothing compared to Russia's. At least Ukraine actually has elections that aren't rigged.

I do also stand with the people as well. It's terrible to see all of those women and children leaving their homes, while their husbands have to stay back to fight. And it's also sad seeing those Russian protesters being arrested. But, in my eyes, the situation isn't as blurred as you saw it is. Simply put, none of these things would have happened if Russia never invaded. None of those children and women would have had to leave their husbands and fathers, praying that those men won't die fighting against the 2nd strongest military on the planet. Although, the Russian military seems to be incompetent, judging by their performance. But there are a bunch of Russian who support the war, these Russians vastly outnumber the Russians who are against the war. Last time I checked, like 60ish percent of Russia supported the war? And this wasn't from some Pro-Russian new source. Although a point can be made that these same Russians only support the war because of the propaganda being fed to them.

It's mindboggling how people just straight up swallow Russian propaganda, lmao. The truly hilarious thing is that the talking points... haven't even changed. Like, I saw some screenshots of Cold War era propaganda materials written in my native language and it's literally all the same, with mainly (some of the) names being changed. Good luck explaining it to people, though.

I'm glad someone understands. It's crazy to me that some people believe Russia's claims. Some people still believe Russia when Putin said that Ukraine was being controlled by Neo-Nazis when the Ukrainian president is Jewish. It's just insane what people will believe nowadays.

 

[Jannah]

But that's what I fail to understand. When you say there's plenty of fault on both sides, what has Ukraine done? Living standards in Ukraine have greatly improved ever since it gained independence back when the Soviets collapsed. Sure, living standards in Ukraine are still poor compared to the West, but that's simply because the West had plenty of time to develop compared to Ukraine. You do have a point about corruption, Ukraine ranking 122nd out of 180 nations, but Ukraine has been improving. Ukraine's government and corruption are nothing compared to Russia's. At least Ukraine actually has elections that aren't rigged.

I do also stand with the people as well. It's terrible to see all of those women and children leaving their homes, while their husbands have to stay back to fight. And it's also sad seeing those Russian protesters being arrested. But, in my eyes, the situation isn't as blurred as you saw it is. Simply put, none of these things would have happened if Russia never invaded. None of those children and women would have had to leave their husbands and fathers, praying that those men won't die fighting against the 2nd strongest military on the planet. Although, the Russian military seems to be incompetent, judging by their performance. But there are a bunch of Russian who support the war, these Russians vastly outnumber the Russians who are against the war. Last time I checked, like 60ish percent of Russia supported the war? And this wasn't from some Pro-Russian new source. Although a point can be made that these same Russians only support the war because of the propaganda being fed to them.

I know people who have done humanitarian work in Ukraine (this was before the war) and they have told stories. I can assure you that outside of the major cities living standards in Ukraine are not great at all. Much of the country is under-developed and some regions, particularly rural ones, have living standards akin to a third world country. It's not a good situation for anyone.

And again, I condemn the invasion. However, point is that it happened and now civilians are suffering for it. My own country has opened its doors to many of these refugees, which I'm glad to see. I just hate the obvious racist double standards at play of everyone in the west being willing to accept Ukrainian refugees, but not Syrian or other Middle Eastern refugees. That's an entirely different topic, though, which I won't get into here. I'm just glad that these new Ukrainian refugees will have places to go where they will feel safe and secure.

 

[Syntra]

But that's what I fail to understand. When you say there's plenty of fault on both sides, what has Ukraine done? Living standards in Ukraine have greatly improved ever since it gained independence back when the Soviets collapsed. Sure, living standards in Ukraine are still poor compared to the West, but that's simply because the West had plenty of time to develop compared to Ukraine. You do have a point about corruption, Ukraine ranking 122nd out of 180 nations, but Ukraine has been improving. Ukraine's government and corruption are nothing compared to Russia's. At least Ukraine actually has elections that aren't rigged.

I do also stand with the people as well. It's terrible to see all of those women and children leaving their homes, while their husbands have to stay back to fight. And it's also sad seeing those Russian protesters being arrested. But, in my eyes, the situation isn't as blurred as you saw it is. Simply put, none of these things would have happened if Russia never invaded. None of those children and women would have had to leave their husbands and fathers, praying that those men won't die fighting against the 2nd strongest military on the planet. Although, the Russian military seems to be incompetent, judging by their performance. But there are a bunch of Russian who support the war, these Russians vastly outnumber the Russians who are against the war. Last time I checked, like 60ish percent of Russia supported the war? And this wasn't from some Pro-Russian new source. Although a point can be made that these same Russians only support the war because of the propaganda being fed to them.


I'm glad someone understands. It's crazy to me that some people believe Russia's claims. Some people still believe Russia when Putin said that Ukraine was being controlled by Neo-Nazis when the Ukrainian president is Jewish. It's just insane what people will believe nowadays.

Yeah, it's crazy to me. They're like: "Hm, which side do I trust? The pretty much harmless one, or the one that murders opposition and journalists, routinely invades countries and threatens people with military interventions? Oh, I know! They are both equally bad." Tbh, I think a lot of them just want to sound edgy. I have chosen not to engage with them because it's such a profound waste of time.

 

[Lorsh]

Tbh, I think a lot of them just want to sound edgy.

Gotta be contrarian!

Ukraine isn't perfect, but Russia is very obviously a fascist shithole.

 

[Jannah]

Gotta be contrarian!

Ukraine isn't perfect, but Russia is very obviously a fascist shithole.

This tbh. Putin is very clearly a wannabe fascist dictator. He's well on his way to succeeding at it too.

 

[Lorsh]

NATO itself is an imperialist organization so it seems nobody wins regardless of what the outcome of this war is.

This tbh. Putin is very clearly a wannabe fascist dictator. He's well on his way to succeeding at it too.

0_0

 

[Jannah]

0_0

View attachment 969786

From what I've seen there's two types of people who support Russia in this war: the alt-right who are essentially fascists themselves and Stalinist/tankie types who see Russia as anti-imperialist and trying to restore the Soviet Union (neither of which is true).

 

[Lorsh]

From what I've seen there's two types of people who support Russia in this war: the alt-right who are essentially fascists themselves and Stalinist/tankie types who see Russia as anti-imperialist and trying to restore the Soviet Union (neither of which is true).

Putin is obviously trying to save the world from the globohomo jewish shapeshifting lizard elites by bombing ukrainian orphanages and maternity hospitals