Since apparently no one else was going to make it: About the new style's announcement thread.

[Thief of Words]

Since apparently this is the next step in the run-around I'm being given over where I can actually suggest things to do with the style, I guess this is the place to make my two suggestions regarding what was discussed there:


One: when you make sweeping changes to the site like this, you really need to do a better job to being open to feedback (even criticism) from your userbase. I know you guys come into this from a coding / programmer's perspective, so a lot of times you just think about what'll work the best on the under-the-hood perspective. I come from the perspective of the Library field (I'll have my Master's in it as of this December). When designing a system that exists to provide a service to users, its user-friendliness is a significant attribute. There were a lot of ways you could have done this a bit differently, such as taking feedback from users during the process or even just making little anouncements about the impending changes and making sure before you pushed them through, that they didn't cause significant problems for anyone. Instead, the reaction I feel like people got upon pointing out that they had issues with the site having undergone a change to near the photonegative of its old visuals were largely treated as if they were simply overreacting or as if their concerns utterly lacked validity. That's intensely disrespectful, and frankly, not expecting there to be opinions that might not always be in favor of every change seems a teensy bit naive. Having an admin make light of people's concerns (@Pineapple) only adds insult to injury.


Two: on the subject of those issues I mentioned above: they are there, and they're not inconsiderable. It is to the point that should the current style remain as stark and bright a white as it is, I will probably be spending less and less time on the site as a direct result of the change.


To bring over my explanation in the other thread to this one:


I find the new forced black text on white background for posts to be just as distressing as @Melissia does. Further the loss of color makes the site much less intuitive to navigate. I have to do a lot of reading for my master's program, so what reading I do in my own time for pleasure, I do on a device which displays light text on a dark background to minimize on eye strain. If I lose that option here, and it gets to be as bad of a problem for me as things had been in the past, then I may very well have to take months or longer off from the site simply because I cannot both complete my coursework and do this without it being detrimental to my ability to not get splitting headaches. I do not feel not wanting to spend days with not-quite-migraines is too much to ask for.


So, to the point of my post (or the TLR for lazy gits) :


Suggestion 1: Treat your users with more consideration and respect when you interact with them in an administrative aspect, please. And consider cluing in the user-base to the details beforehand when you plan to make changes as significant as this one, rather than just springing them upon us.


Suggestion 2: Consider finding an alternative to a stark white for a primary background. I know I am not the only person intensely discomfited by this.

 

[Melissia]

Well, here goes. I'm hoping that me being honest about my opinions will not surprise or upset any one. It is how I always prefer to communicate. After last time, I'm not entirely comfortable posting my opinions related to things the staff have done, but I've been asked to do so again. So I am.


__________________________________________________


The change was just plain bad, with no redeeming features; there is nothing good about the design decisions made here. It turned the forum in to an interesting and memorable experience in to just another bland, cookie-cutter, amateur-looking forum, like one of millions on the internet. Unlike most forums which choose the boring white scheme out of pure laziness, this one was chosen to be white; but that doesn't make it any better. Even ignoring all of that, and even if, for some reason beyond my fathoming, you felt the need to force an unnecessary bright white background on to the website with no options for alternate themes, there are better and more interesting, as well as more artistic, ways of doing it. The forums on the main page have no visible separation, they all blend in together. The lack of icons at the bottom makesit look like there's far less variety in the forum, at first glance compared to before it feels like it's dead, with the activity hidden away behind a pointlessly sterile front page.


The "customization" options that are presented are too few and too ineffective, doing basically nothing to help fix the problem, and ultimately having so few choices that it feels it was utterly pointless to do in the first place. The backgrounds only include minecraft pictures, the color changes only change a couple buttons and such, and in the end, it doesn't have the impact desired to help minimize the problems caused by the overall changes to the theme. The justification for not including an alternate theme doesn't really hold water either, given that we're already changing from a (vastly superior) artistic setup to a drastically different one to begin with, which means that in order to avoid the problem we are instead causing it-- a solution that stinks of homeopathic thinking, but I don't need to get myself off topic on to a different rant.


I'm not saying "doom and gloom, the apocalypse is here, the forum is ruined". In spite of the horrible and unattractive new theme, the website still has content. I am, however, saying that the change sucked and could have been done better even though it shouldn't have been done at all. Time will not make it suck less. Only changing it will. Indeed, the first thing many people did after having our opinions rebuffed was do our best to circumvent the ugly new theme via browser extensions like Stylish, because it really is that awful and worsens the experiences of many of the posters, without any benefit to the forum as a whole. Others would likely have the artistic vocabulary to provide more constructive criticism I'm sure, but hopefully in spite of that I made my points and you can get some useful ideas on how to make it better regardless.

 

[Kaerri]

I actually like the new setup, aside from the white, which has been fixed to some degree - click here. Before you shout, no, it's not "dark," it's darker - which (see below) I think is the better option.


Having used forums where some people turned on dark colors and some turned on light, I really cannot be in favor of having both options available. (I mean a true dark, such as we had "before," not the off-white that I've got turned on now.) Anyone who changes the color of their posting text then has to worry about whether it will be visible and readable not only in their own color scheme, but on every other color scheme that site offers. There aren't many colors that fall into that "always visible and readable" category and so most people ended up just using the default color text instead.


I think a lot of people did overreact to the new change, but I think if we all give it a chance and learn our way around, we'll like it more. I certainly did.

 

[Purr]

There are a lot of gamers out there who expect get what they want easily, but that is not the way of life, nor should it be.


Change is part of life. But hey, the staff gave us plenty of warning that changes were coming. I can respect that approach to change. =)

 

[Melissia]

I think a lot of people did overreact to the new change

Right, because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it is overreacting.

 

[Kaerri]

Right, because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it is overreacting.

Because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it ad nauseum, with curse words and other harassing behavior, is overreacting. I did not say everyone who disliked the change was overreacting. I said "a lot" were. Eye of the beholder and all that, but "a lot" still doesn't mean all or even most. It didn't when I said it anyway. Anyone who reads this is, of course, free to misinterpret as they wish, or assume I'm talking about them specifically. You are also free to assume I'm talking about someone else - if, for example, you don't think you were overreacting, you can assume I wasn't talking about you.


*Generic use of "you," not meant to point fingers. English is limited.


And just for the record, I didn't like the white-white, I was blinded by it - quite literally, as when I turned away from the computer, my bright-light-adjusted eyes couldn't see in the darker rest of the house - and I am very happy that the staff have found a fix for it. I just don't see the need to behave irrationally and discourteously because of it. Disagreements exist and will always exist, because people will always have different opinions. I just wish we could all behave like the mature people I know we are.

 

[Purr]

Right, because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it is overreacting.

@Melissia Complaining is not overreacting. Complaining is stating displeasure in an effort to get the situation corrected (Like the old saying, "I can't fix it if I don't know it's broken.") That's fine.


Cussing out and harassing our staff in private messages is overreacting.

 

[Melissia]

Because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it ad nauseum, with curse words and other harassing behavior, is overreacting.

No, it's not. When something is physically uncomfortable enough to cause pain, complaining about it is not overreacting.
However:

@Melissia Complaining is not overreacting. Complaining is stating displeasure in an effort to get the situation corrected ("I can't fix it if I don't know it's broken." That's fine.
Cussing out and harassing our staff in private messages is overreacting.

On that I agree. But the way I read it insinuated that the complaints were the problem, not the harassment.

 

[Kaerri]

No, it's not. When something is physically uncomfortable enough to cause pain, complaining about it is not overreacting.

Disagreements exist and will always exist, because people will always have different opinions.

Going to agree to disagree here, at least on my end, if only part of what I post is going to be understood. I don't feel like getting in a revolving argument and it looks like that's where this is headed.

 

[Melissia]

Disagreements do not always have to exist, because we are capable of compromise and working things out to the betterment of all involved-- as proved by the staff providing us this not-quite-as-bright color scheme due to the feedback we have provided them.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

Hey @Thief of Words,


I would like to apologize in my delay for responding, been busy with some IRL stuff the past few days. If you don't mind I'll be responding to everything in your post.

@Pineapple[/URL]) only adds insult to injury.

We listen to everyone's feedback, the white style has been a thing that has been announced since last November, the dev site has been open for on http://dev.rpdom.com and many many people took the time to write back to us, we made various announcements about it.


Pineapple was not making light of any one's concerns.

@Melissia[/URL] does. Further the loss of color makes the site much less intuitive to navigate. I have to do a lot of reading for my master's program, so what reading I do in my own time for pleasure, I do on a device which displays light text on a dark background to minimize on eye strain. If I lose that option here, and it gets to be as bad of a problem for me as things had been in the past, then I may very well have to take months or longer off from the site simply because I cannot both complete my coursework and do this without it being detrimental to my ability to not get splitting headaches. I do not feel not wanting to spend days with not-quite-migraines is too much to ask for.

I'm sorry that you found the style as distressing as @Melissia does, however that doesn't tell me much from a feedback prospective other then it hurts your eyes/its too bright. All I can say is that I hope "Dark Roleplayzone" helps out.


I'm also sorry to hear that you found the white style unintiative for navigation. If I recall, you also found the black style when it was first released to be unintuitive.


http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/roleplay-filter-blackblox-style-xenforo-1-2.57335/#post-804585


http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/roleplay-filter-blackblox-style-xenforo-1-2.57335/page-2#post-804589


http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/roleplay-filter-blackblox-style-xenforo-1-2.57335/page-2#post-804620


I'm sure you'll grow to like this style, as you did that one eventually considering that you want us to switch back to that theme/design/dark setup.

http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/rpdom-sneak-peek.59053/[/URL]


So please don't tell us that we haven't been properly announcing anything or not treating anyone with respect.


@Pineapple asked you to drop the issue because you were not providing constructive criticism. I've been extremely leniant with you and your recent outbursts on the site, I still haven't forgotten the issues you had with in that game where you were going at it with another member and even then I decided not to punish anyone involved.


Then you proceeded to post overemotional responses in Deathwatch and that PM and yell at @Pineapple before you deleted them all and apologized.


I've allowed you to get away with a ton of nonsense, but please stop.

[QUOTE="Thief of Words]Suggestion 2: Consider finding an alternative to a stark white for a primary background. I know I am not the only person intensely discomfited by this.

As I said, I hope that "Dark roleplayzone" helps out. You are welcomed to suggest if we should make it a bit darker or not.


If you have any questions or concerns you are welcomed to reach me via Private Messages or the Admin Contact forum.


Otherwise lets get back to doing what we all do awesomely and thats Roleplay !


-The Dark Wizard

 

[The Dark Wizard]

I actually like the new setup, aside from the white, which has been fixed to some degree - click here. Before you shout, no, it's not "dark," it's darker - which (see below) I think is the better option.
Having used forums where some people turned on dark colors and some turned on light, I really cannot be in favor of having both options available. (I mean a true dark, such as we had "before," not the off-white that I've got turned on now.) Anyone who changes the color of their posting text then has to worry about whether it will be visible and readable not only in their own color scheme, but on every other color scheme that site offers. There aren't many colors that fall into that "always visible and readable" category and so most people ended up just using the default color text instead.


I think a lot of people did overreact to the new change, but I think if we all give it a chance and learn our way around, we'll like it more. I certainly did.

Right, because when the new color scheme physically hurts your eyes, complaining about it is overreacting.

Actually yes. Claiming that it causes you physical pain is overacting. You either have some sort of trouble with your vision and I recommend you seek medical help from a doctor that specializes in the eyes because I actually know how that is I have a condition where if I don't continue to get my eye care, I'll go blind.


Otherwise, you are overreacting and need a lamp near your computer, lower your monitor brightness or something because with the way you state that your eyes are in physical pain, you clearly can't visit sites like facebook, youtube, etc, google.


I don't want to come off as disrespectful but there was no other way I can word a response to you.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

@Thief of Words, @Melissia,


I know you both appreciate the new dark alternative and my response to this thread is a bit late, so don't think think the staff are upset or anything.


Both of you had fair and legitimate concerns, its just the way you went about expressing them was unfair and rude to the staff, the community and anyone who participated in those discussions.


Your compliants/feedback were accounted for the first time, just the way it was presented and then each time after that.


Well no one likes feedback/points fueled by Ad hominem arguments.

 

[Thief of Words]

You made your point two posts ago.

 

[Ignitedstar]

So what? That means he can't post more about how he feels about the situation?


I'm not going to write more than that, because I won't be able to stop.

 

[Melissia]

[QUOTE="The Dark Wizard]Actually yes. Claiming that it causes you physical pain is overacting.

[/QUOTE]If someone stating the honest truth is "overreacting" to you, then that says a lot about you.[QUOTE="The Dark Wizard]Otherwise, you are overreacting and need a lamp near your computer, lower your monitor brightness or something because with the way you state that your eyes are in physical pain, you clearly can't visit sites like facebook, youtube, etc, google

[/QUOTE]I have a lamp near my computer. It's on, and it almost always remains on unless I'm going to sleep. Doesn't change the fact that looking at your non-dark theme is like staring at a flashlight.
And I don't visit facebook (it sucks). I have a darker skin for youtube. And I don't spend hours on google like I do here and other forums. That last part-- the fact that I spend hours on a website-- is the important part here. I want to spend a lot of time on this website. So do a lot of the other people complaining. So there's no need to just be casually dismissive of any non-positive feedback... after specifically asking for it.

[QUOTE="The Dark Wizard]Both of you had fair and legitimate concerns, its just the way you went about expressing them was unfair and rude to the staff, the community and anyone who participated in those discussions.

[/QUOTE]I call BS on this.
The "way I went about expressing" my opinion has been polite and honest. I have not sent insults, I have not belittled the people disagreeing with me-- unlike you, whom has done so consistently both times this topic has come up. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make it rude. And it doesn't become rude to disagree with someone stubbornly. It DOES become rude to suggest that someone else is lying, or that the artistic opinions of anyone who disagrees with you is "not worth their salt".


And this isn't a new complaint on my part, either. I've pointed this out to you in the past.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

There is offering feedback, positive or otherwise, and there is carrying on beating the same dead horse. Pineapple, Wizard, Miz and myself are well aware of your pain, discomfort and general disapproval of the current site color scheme. I empathise with your situation, since I am a victim of severe migraines (have been since I was six), brought on by a variety of things. My solution? I don't have my monitor brightness too high for my discomfort, I take regular breaks from the computer (as anyone should), I sit at least 50cm from the screen. The good @Admiral Calgori has offered you a solution, which you stated was ineffective due to your not using one of the programs that the solution works with.


If indeed you do spend as much time on this site as you say you do, then I think it would be a small accommodation for you to install one of those browsers that do work with that solution.


Thus far, this whole situation regarding the color scheme change has completely overshadowed the other great additions that Pineapple, Wizard Miz and myself have implemented and that saddens me. The staff of RoleplayZone have spent long hours and a considerable sum of money creating and commissioning the customized add-ons that the site now has integrated into it, making RoleplayZone entirely unique in the entire online roleplaying community in regard to the level of end-user accessibility. I'm sure you are aware that most other sites only offer people running and playing games single threads for their games, regardless of the size or complexity of those games. We offer not only an entire subforum, but now we allow the Roleplay Creator (RC) to custom-create their own game, their way. And not only that, RCs can archive and de-archive their games at any time, rather than waiting on a member of the Admins to go and pack the game away or dig it out of the archives.


So, I'm going to say this one time, politely:


@Melissia,


We, the staff of Roleplay.Zone, are fully aware that the current light color scheme has caused you and other users physical discomfort and/or pain. We have taken your comments on board and we have initiated a fix for that (the Dark RoleplayZone scheme). While I cannot say whether there will be further fixes of that nature, I can assure you that the comfort and best interests of all RoleplayZone users is our primary concern. I now ask that this subject be allowed to rest, as I feel that nothing more constructive can be drawn from this thread at this time.


Captain Hesperus


-RoleplayZone Administrator

 

[Melissia]

[QUOTE="Captain Hesperus]Thus far, this whole situation regarding the color scheme change has completely overshadowed the other great additions that Pineapple, Wizard Miz and myself have implemented and that saddens me.

[/QUOTE]Except it hasn't. It's just the one item that has gotten consistent, repeated negative feedback from multiple people. Everything else has gotten positive feedback, including some very glowing reviews (regarding the bbcode). Including from me! I like the new additions that aren't part of the new site theme. I think they AREN'T overshadowed-- just reading the User Status bar says that it's coming to a rest.
The only place this is being discussed is here in this thread right now. And a subject being discussed in the sole thread dedicated to discussing it is hardly a bad thing, is it?


As for the work-around, the as I have stated before, the Dark RoleplayZone theme has made this website bearable to read again. That is what I meant when I said:

Disagreements do not always have to exist, because we are capable of compromise and working things out to the betterment of all involved-- as proved by the staff providing us this not-quite-as-bright color scheme due to the feedback we have provided them.

The posts I made here, aside from the two I made today (including this one) were made before that compromise was offered up by the staff. I actually consider the topic settled myself, but I do object to being unfairly labeled as "rude" when I have been polite and honest at every step of the way.

 

[Thief of Words]

I am done posting in this thread, since clearly to post at all will just involve inviting myself to be further held up for public ridicule, never-mind the levels of do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do involved in that happening.


Any further comments I have to make I will pm to the individuals they are to be sent to. I had intended to simply state my general satisfaction with the style once the grey-tone style was established, but every time I log back on and check this thread again, I find another person in the queue to beat the dead horse of putting me in my place (a task more than accomplished several days ago thank-you-very-much).

 

[Ignitedstar]

The posts I made here, aside from the two I made today (including this one) were made before that compromise was offered up by the staff. I actually consider the topic settled myself, but I do object to being unfairly labeled as "rude" when I have been polite and honest at every step of the way.

No, you haven't. I think you need to go back and read what you wrote. Honest? Yes. Polite? Not even close.

 

[Melissia]

No, you haven't. I think you need to go back and read what you wrote.

I defy you to prove your accusations.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

And this is where I lock this thread.


Captain Hesperus


-RoleplayZone Admin