Viewpoint Is structure to big an ask?

[StAmuriah]

Is it? I feel like the biggest reasons stories fall through is because there is no structure. And not just the plot, but characters. To be more specific:

->lack of plot structure
-->lack of theme
->lack of character arc
-->lack of character development
--->lack of active choices to push the plot, stay thematic or advance the character arc

I understand that writing with a person these things tend not to happen, but we go through the trouble of pitching plot premise, genres and character. All 3 of those things so much more exhaustive than the smaller bits I just described. Compared to the former, these are function window dressing. Idk, maybe I am being a bit overbearing in my complaint.....

 

[Idea]

Rather than overbearing, I think you seem to be seriously underestimating the work that goes into a proper character arc, character development, continually making choices, staying on and developing themes, or working out the plot structure... and that's assuming you're planning and sticking to the plan, let alone trying to have those things emerge spontaneously out of as-we-go-writing. Leaving aside all questions of motivation - whether people even care to try to input those things in the first place - the simple fact that the things you're describing as "not as exhaustive" are the things which constitute almost the entirety of a narrative compared to those things which are only a snapshot of the early parts before any goals are set or past content exists to be adhered to.

It could be that you're just referring to pitching these things rather than their whole development (the fact that you referred only to "pitching" premise, genre and character and the fact that your initial introduction refers to "stories not falling through due to there being no structure" is giving me mixed signals there), but even so I do think such things as plot structure, theme, character arcs and development.... are still significantly more in both content and thought required than premise or genre at least, with character being more debatable.

 

[GojiBean]

Hi there.

I'd like to ask for clarification about something.

"I fele like the biggest reasons stories don't fall through is because there is no structure."

This statement suggests that stories/roleplays succeed because there is no structure. When something "falls through," it fails. If it "doesn't fall through," it succeeds.

So, are you saying that you feel stories/roleplays succeed because of a lack of structure? Or are you saying you feel they fail because of a lack of structure? The language kind of goes back and forth throughout your post, so I'm a bit confused.

Once I know for sure what you mean I can provide a more appropriate response to your initial question.

Cheers!

 

[StAmuriah]

Hi there.

I'd like to ask for clarification about something.

"I fele like the biggest reasons stories don't fall through is because there is no structure."

This statement suggests that stories/roleplays succeed because there is no structure. When something "falls through," it fails. If it "doesn't fall through," it succeeds.

So, are you saying that you feel stories/roleplays succeed because of a lack of structure? Or are you saying you feel they fail because of a lack of structure? The language kind of goes back and forth throughout your post, so I'm a bit confused.

Once I know for sure what you mean I can provide a more appropriate response to your initial question.

Cheers!

You're right. I assume I was interrupted during the writing of the shapes of this sentence and continued it another way:

"I feel like the biggest reasons stories don't continue/succeed"

"I feel like the biggest reason fall through"

To be clear, my position is that stories usually not successful because of X.

 

[StAmuriah]

Rather than overbearing, I think you seem to be seriously underestimating the work that goes into a proper character arc, character development, continually making choices, staying on and developing themes, or working out the plot structure... and that's assuming you're planning and sticking to the plan, let alone trying to have those things emerge spontaneously out of as-we-go-writing. Leaving aside all questions of motivation - whether people even care to try to input those things in the first place - the simple fact that the things you're describing as "not as exhaustive" are the things which constitute almost the entirety of a narrative compared to those things which are only a snapshot of the early parts before any goals are set or past content exists to be adhered to.

It could be that you're just referring to pitching these things rather than their whole development (the fact that you referred only to "pitching" premise, genre and character and the fact that your initial introduction refers to "stories not falling through due to there being no structure" is giving me mixed signals there), but even so I do think such things as plot structure, theme, character arcs and development.... are still significantly more in both content and thought required than premise or genre at least, with character being more debatable.

I think there was I a miscommunication created by my typo, which GojiBwan pointed out. That's my fault and I will fix it now.

To be clear, I believe that there is very little to no formal structure in RP as we know it and that's part of the nature of spontaneous creation. I am more meditation on the idea that longevity and event greatness can be achieved in these works if we put more emphasis on the moving parts than the athletic ones. They are all important, for sure. A clock need hands and numbers to tell thr time, but the cogs need to be placed strategically for the clock to run at all, let alone on time.

But like you said, this is also a big preferential issue. And I'm not about to argue that.

 

[Idea]

I think there was I a miscommunication created by my typo, which GojiBwan pointed out. That's my fault and I will fix it now.

I don't think so, given I interpreted that part in the way you explained when you replied to Gojibean.

To be clear, I believe that there is very little to no formal structure in RP as we know it and that's part of the nature of spontaneous creation. I am more meditation on the idea that longevity and event greatness can be achieved in these works if we put more emphasis on the moving parts than the athletic ones. They are all important, for sure. A clock need hands and numbers to tell thr time, but the cogs need to be placed strategically for the clock to run at all, let alone on time.

I understand that. My primary contention is with the statement that these things are "less exhaustive" than premise, genre or character - and especially less exhaustive than pitching premise, genre or character. I don't think we disagree on the importance of all of these components, what I'm saying is that even in disregard for matters of preference doing any of the things you listed well is anything but simple, and doubly so on something like your average RP, which are home to by the seat of the pants writing (so as you said, no structure, at least none that isn't retroactive). It's not overbearing to want structure, character arcs and development, themes... but it is definitely a mistake to think the degree of effort and commitment getting those things requires (at least presuming you want them done well) is comparable to the barebones set up that is coming up with a premise and a character.

 

[GojiBean]

You're right. I assume I was interrupted during the writing of the shapes of this sentence and continued it another way:

"I feel like the biggest reasons stories don't continue/succeed"

"I feel like the biggest reason fall through"

To be clear, my position is that stories usually not successful because of X.

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!

In that case, I agree with you. I feel a lack of structure is a near-guaranteed death sentence for a roleplay. At the very least there should be a clear vision of the beginning, the middle, and the end. Even if, in the beginning, it's just bullet points like:

• We begin the RP at this location, this event happens, and as a result we get pushed towards this location for this reason
• The main body of the RP is a quest to acquire X, take it to Y, and defeat Z, but along the way obstacles will arise to slow us down or set us back
• The end is going to be a long, epic battle against the Main Baddy

This somewhat oversimplified bullet list is enough of a plan to kickstart a role play. However, its longevity will be in question if the GM doesn't step up and take responsibility for filling in the gaps and providing those "obstacles" which can help to give more depth and life to the adventure along the way. If they GM fails at that responsibility or, for whatever reason, ceases to be creative and inspired in how they approach the direction of the role play, then the role play is doomed.

Of course, there are always very rare exceptions. There will inevitably be that one role play with no plan that somehow finds its way to a long and healthy life and even possibly to a conclusion. But in my experience to have an RP without a formal structure or plan find its way to a conclusion is like playing the lottery. Theoretically plausible, but highly unlikely.

Communication is also important.

If the GM has a plan for the RP and is trying to implement some kind of structure to keep it stable and moving forward, but does a poor job communicating their intentions to the participants, that can kill an RP just as quickly as putting out one intro post and then "hoping for the best," as I've heard some describe it. Outside of one role play many years ago on another site which was based off of a well-known anime/manga series where everyone knew so much about the source material that structure didn't seem to matter, I don't think I've ever seen a role play reach, let alone surpass 100 posts without a competent GM guiding the way through proper communication and hands-on direction.

But, that's just me and my experience.

Cheers!

 

[StAmuriah]

I don't think so, given I interpreted that part in the way you explained when you replied to Gojibean.



I understand that. My primary contention is with the statement that these things are "less exhaustive" than premise, genre or character - and especially less exhaustive than pitching premise, genre or character. I don't think we disagree on the importance of all of these components, what I'm saying is that even in disregard for matters of preference doing any of the things you listed well is anything but simple, and doubly so on something like your average RP, which are home to by the seat of the pants writing (so as you said, no structure, at least none that isn't retroactive). It's not overbearing to want structure, character arcs and development, themes... but it is definitely a mistake to think the degree of effort and commitment getting those things requires (at least presuming you want them done well) is comparable to the barebones set up that is coming up with a premise and a character.

Then let me take a step back and tell you that it was not my intention to imply that writing in this fashion is easy and that actively applying a prescribed premise, character arc, plot structure and theme are easy by any stretch of the imagination. They are not. And the way i wrote my post certainly does forward that implication, or at the very least isn't very charitable to conventional RP preparation. Writing these parts comes easier to others than to most, and thr latter is true for the opposite traits becauee all writers are differnexe and have their own strengths ans weaknesses. I am, however in a venting fashion, wistfully asking is for these essential parts of storytelling to a part of the main conversation.

 

[Idea]

I am, however in a venting fashion, wistfully asking is for these essential parts of storytelling to a part of the main conversation.

I am confused by this sentence, could you clarify?

 

[StAmuriah]

I am confused by this sentence, could you clarify?

No problem.

The parts that are usually conveyed when pitching an rp idea are, as I understand it:

- A concept or premise accompanied by genre
- Characters that OP has prepared for the story or prerequisites for PCs to fulfill

And that's about it.

I'm saying that that discussing...
- a plot structure (not just plot points since concepts, which makes up the majority of pitches, don't need a plot to funtion)
- a main narrative theme
- character arcs based on said theme
... should also be included as part of the pitching process. On paper it looks exhaustive, and creating them will likely be laborsome, but stories without these components are meandering messes. For the security and longevity of the RP I just think being a bit more thoughtful would help. However, not everyone is trying to write the next great novel. That is why I felt as if maybe I am asking for too much. Not because it is (since it will intrinsically happen, albeit poorly at times), but because it's not to everyone's taste when wanting to RP. What I'm describing isn't the experience everyone is looking for.

 

[Novelight]

To answer the general question of the thread - no, you're not asking for too much. Some people prefer to write an entire database about their character, while some just want to pop out a character in 2 hours and see where the story goes.

Just find the right people and you'll get what you want. Eventually...

 

[Idea]

No problem.

The parts that are usually conveyed when pitching an rp idea are, as I understand it:

- A concept or premise accompanied by genre
- Characters that OP has prepared for the story or prerequisites for PCs to fulfill

And that's about it.

I'm saying that that discussing...
- a plot structure (not just plot points since concepts, which makes up the majority of pitches, don't need a plot to funtion)
- a main narrative theme
- character arcs based on said theme
... should also be included as part of the pitching process. On paper it looks exhaustive, and creating them will likely be laborsome, but stories without these components are meandering messes. For the security and longevity of the RP I just think being a bit more thoughtful would help. However, not everyone is trying to write the next great novel. That is why I felt as if maybe I am asking for too much. Not because it is (since it will intrinsically happen, albeit poorly at times), but because it's not to everyone's taste when wanting to RP. What I'm describing isn't the experience everyone is looking for.

I see, I see. Yeah, then I agree and I don't think it's asking too much. Like Novelight said, it's about finding the right partners to match with. I myself really love it when I can get matched with a partner who loves planning as well and without a doubt some of my best experiences with RP have come with partners more willing to do that... though it's a rare thing. Then again, I am rather picky on my partners.

 

[Solivagante]

This is an interesting question and something I have sort of been mulling over myself, but I think you're perhaps missing some nuance in the fact that not everyone RPs for the same reason.

As someone who first got into RP in middle/high school, and is returning to the hobby in my early 30s with a very different perspective on storytelling, I've seen several sides of this. The fact is that some people don't really care about character arcs and narrative themes and honestly, while that's no longer my jam, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Sometimes you just want to indulge in a bit of escapism or power fantasy! Sometimes you want to push two fictional characters together like dolls. Sometimes it's just an expression of the same inherent creative narrative urge that most of us engaged in on the playground - and I say that not to denigrate this sort of RP, but to point out that it's a core human behavior, just adapted to a new format. Often times there is no destination, only journey.

I do agree that these kind of RPs can fail more often, but I think that, as in all collaborative projects, that depends on who's involved as much as what the structure is. Back in my GaiaOnline days I had very loosely-structured RPs which ran for years, especially sustained by a core group of about 3-5 people who were deeply invested. A lot of other people who joined dropped off, but the rest of us kept going. With any group writing project, this is normal, I think - there's a certain unquantifiable synergy needed to create a functional group, whether it's for creation or critique.

Now, the kind of RP you seem to gravitate towards (based on this post and your interest check) is focused on building a cohesive narrative, and that's a little different. The difficulty I think you'll see in both group and 1x1 RPs is that a lot of people want an element of surprise, as this helps keep the creative energy going. Additionally... there's no nice way to say this: metagaming is a known and common issue in RP, so often it pays to keep things like character arcs and plot developments under wraps depending on who you're playing with, until/unless you know they're mature enough as a writer (regardless of age) to not let that knowledge influence their character's actions.

This question is also very different in 1x1 RPs versus group settings. In 1x1s, as other people have mentioned, you can pick and choose your partners and make sure you're writing with people who share your approach. In groups, you have more competing interests, and you are also trying to actively appeal to more people from the get-go, which requires balancing the structural needs of the story you're pitching with the openness for players to be creative. Nobody joins a group RP to ghostwrite a book the GM's already outlined, after all. So you don't necessarily want to give a lot of details of the planned plot, or specify how people should play their characters, in order to give people their creative freedom.

I've been turning this question of GMing over in my head a lot, though, and I think the solution is this - you don't pitch an RP with specific themes and character arcs, but you do require your players to think about and include these elements in their applications. This also allows for a more collaborative story development; I personally feel that in RP, there must be interplay between characters and plot events, so I would pitch a relatively 'sandboxy' idea as an interest check, then develop more details and plan future events based on the people who apply and what they want or think would be interesting for their characters.

 

[Idea]

Nobody joins a group RP to ghostwrite a book the GM's already outlined, after all.

While this might not work as well for large groups, I don't think there is such a binary between a more planned and organized story structure and "not ghostwriting what's already outlined". After all, such a binary would come under the assumption that the outline and structure can't be a collaborative effort of the group. Like you said in a group there's a lot of competing interests and different people seek RP for different reasons, but nothing stops you from at least trying to find a small group who are all interested in that kind of more structured and planned approach.

 

[Solivagante]

While this might not work as well for large groups, I don't think there is such a binary between a more planned and organized story structure and "not ghostwriting what's already outlined". After all, such a binary would come under the assumption that the outline and structure can't be a collaborative effort of the group. Like you said in a group there's a lot of competing interests and different people seek RP for different reasons, but nothing stops you from at least trying to find a small group who are all interested in that kind of more structured and planned approach.

That's very true; I'm realizing I phrased that a little imprecisely. I was referring specifically to OP's discussion of bringing up these things in the initial pitch, which I take to mean the interest check - personally, I wouldn't do so in very much detail, as it leaves less room for players to bring their own creativity to the table.

I think the middle ground would be addressing the kind of structure you plan for your RP to have, but without specifying story beats? So, for example, a group interest check might have a story pitch establishing the setting, and then an additional note along the lines of "This is a fairly open sandbox setting; narrative conflicts will come from player interactions," or "This is planned as a quest which unfolds into a much, much bigger problem to solve, with smaller encounters along the way."

 

[Perpetual Zen]

A little late to the conversation but it's a valid point.

Role Plays do not succeed simply because they stall and in my experience I have had role plays last a very very long time if I merely kept posting in them.
I implement the structure and regular posts. Is it difficult? Certainly is. Although, if I don't do it then I know this role play will fail. Not because others are lacking in effort but I mean it's sort of my unwritten responsibility to keep this thing running. Although, it's a lot of work and I often really rely on others input to make things successful. Without much input from others I'm just bossing people around and that just gets really tiring. Basically commitment on both ends is really important. If there is a lack of structure that is causing difficulty implement it. Be proactive. This would be my advice. And is it too much to ask? Yes. Because anyone who is creating a role play for you is doing YOU a service. I would just be as proactive as you can and know a admin is not being paid for the work they do. It's just out of love.