Other I don't understand Transgenders a little help?

[MrThe]

See I just don't get why transgender people are always asking people to accept them for who they are when they can't even accept themselves for who they are. Like I'm legitimately confused, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[hologram]

I believe most trans folks would say that transitioning would be considered an act of accepting themselves for who they are. It just so happens that their gender doesn't match up with the one they were assigned at birth.

I'm not trans myself though, and everyone's experience with gender is different.

 

[MrThe]

Ok. I guess, still doesn't quite jive with me but sure. To me, it appears like they have a self-image problem and want to be something they are not.

 

[SidTheSkid]

Yikes, I already know how this thread is gonna go.

 

[ApfelSeine]

Identity is a personal thing, so I agree with hologram that they are indeed accepting themselves for who they are. What they are not doing is accepting who you are saying they are. We all have our own perceptions of reality, so the reason it doesn't make sense to you is because of the lense you are looking through.

Look at it this way; if a trans individual were to say "please accept me for who I am", you'd know that what they mean is "please accept that I identify as this gender". So you already know, on some level, what they mean by accepting who they are. The definition you are using for "who they are" is a different one than they are using, so that's why they aren't accepting themselves by your standards. If their definition was the same as the one you are using, then their asking that you accept who they are would become rather meaningless. That's why you should acknowledge that your definition of their identity is different than their definition of their identity. And though your definitions are different, they know their identity better than you do, because they know themselves best. It's worth acknowledging that.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter if you can believe their definition of their identity. What matters is that you are respectful to them, and use the pronouns they ask you to use. After all, you wouldn't like it if people went around referring to you as the wrong gender right? Being respectful of people, regardless of how well you understand them, makes this world a better place.

 

[General]

Honestly, can anybody really be understood? I don't understand my mother and I live with her. Don't act like humans have suddenly become mysterious. I saw a dude on the road yesterday in a vehicle that looked like it came from Mario Kart. So, think about this: if people act completely how you'd expect, why is that? Are they trying to kill you? The General is here to help.

 

[ebb]

If you're honestly reaching out to understand because you don't, and wish to, that's great. But I'm not sure why you would create a thread just to state "I don't agree with people being transgender!"- that's a little odd? But I do respect your right to voice an opinion, that's completely fine.

I think it's as simple as someone being what they identify as. If someone identifies as a man or a woman, they are a man or a woman, fullstop. They don't have to prove that to you, because they're not doing it for you. They don't need other people to validate that truth. But as Apfel pointed out, it just boils down to how much you respect that person.

Also, it's important to note that the generalization that all transgender men and women don't accept themselves is wildly inaccurate. I've seen so many of my transgender friends and coworkers thrive and be extremely confident and comfortable with who they are. Chances are, you've met tons of transgender men and women who you didn't even know were trans. Why does it matter?

Anyways, having an open discussion is always a healthy thing, hope you find the answers you were looking for.

 

[Lillie Summers]

Honestly, can anybody really be understood? I don't understand my mother and I live with her. Don't act like humans have suddenly become mysterious. I saw a dude on the road yesterday in a vehicle that looked like it came from Mario Kart. So, think about this: if people act completely how you'd expect, why is that? Are they trying to kill you? The General is here to help.

This is actually a really good way of looking at it.

I've been through a lot of trauma in my life, so I don't expect people to entirely "understand me". In spite of that, however, I am always grateful for their kindness, support, etc. I don't think that the cisgender population needs to so much "understand" transfolk, but they should support them, love them, respect them, etc., as you would to any other person. That's just my take on it. As always, I'm open to criticism and further discussions though.

 

[ACatMeow17]

So I’m just gonna give you my take on it, from having trans friends and having dated trans people before.

So when someone comes out to you as trans or tells you that they’re trans, the first thing you want to know is that it’s not a belief/feeling/whatever that they can control. From a young age they’ve always felt sort of stuck or trapped in the wrong body. It’s not a decision they chose to make. If they could change how they felt about their own bodies, I’m sure a lot of them would. Dysphoria isn’t very fun from what I’ve heard.

To put it into perspective for a cisgender person, imagine being a guy. And you KNOW deep down that you’re a guy. Then one morning you wake up and suddenly you have a female body instead of a male’s. Like something straight out of Freaky Friday. That’s how trans people feel everyday. They KNOW that they’re a guy/girl on the inside but their body shows something different when they look in the mirror.

And let’s be honest. You wouldn’t want someone to call you a chick if you’re actually a dude. It’s the same for trans people and it’s especially more offensive to them because they are always trying their hardest to pass accurately as the gender that they feel they are. So please don’t judge them just because they got the wrong end of the stick when they were born and are now trying to change that.

Trans people have feelings too.

 

[duckinthehat]

It's not that they cant accept themselves its just that they don't feel comfortable with the sex they were born into. Sex and gender are different things, imo gender is just as much of a social construct as race is

 

[salty_ moustachio]

imo gender is just as much of a social construct as race is

So race is a social construct? How so?

 

[duckinthehat]

So race is a social construct? How so?

There's only one race, the human race. All other specifics are just made up. Now even though I consider race such as White to be a construct I am in no way undermining that it's something that affects and restricts everyone to and extent. Nationalities and someone's ethnicity are a different thing, they are tied to culture and genetics more so than race. If you think about it what really is someone's race? What classifications does someone have to meet to fit under a specific race?

 

[Blnk]

Hmmmm thread didn't go as badly as I anticipated

 

[Shifty Powers]

Here's the thing, identitiy isn't just a personal thing. Other people use your identity and your characteristics to identify you. Whether it's your race, your gender, your height, etc. That's just a part of living with other people

Shouldn't the real goal be that a person, regardless of their biology, should be allowed to act however they want to act and pursue whatever they want to pursue (without hurting others)?

 

[ApfelSeine]

Shifty Powers
I think the goal should absolutely be that people can do whatever they want without it being attributed to a sex or gender or anything else. While society might deem something to belong to a particular demographic, these attributions are often arbitrary and prone to change. For instance, in Western culture boys used to be swaddled in pink and girls in blue. Now it's the other way around.

All that said, I don't see why people can't simply show respect for each other by using the correct pronouns and letting people live their lives as they see fit (particularly in ways that don't hurt anyone else). Although I am cis myself, growing up I had short hair and was often teased for being boyish. My brother (also cis) had long hair and was often misgendered because of that. No one has ever said to me or my brother that we were unreasonable for insisting that people only use the pronouns we were comfortable with (female and male respectively). It should be the same for everyone.

Part of living with other people is also accepting one another's self identification. Yes, people around you won't always accept your identity, they'll have their own beliefs, and that's a part of life too. Hell, I once had a 3rd grade substitute teacher say "you can't be Chinese, your eyes are the wrong shape" in response to me mentioning my mixed race background. Some people get things wrong, or have their own way of categorizing people that won't jive with your way of categorizing people. Sometimes people misidentify others out of innocence, and other times it's malicious. I can't demand that people accept trans identities, but I am still going to insist that it should be common courtesy to avoid making people uncomfortable by calling them something which they do not wish to be called.

 

[madame moiselle]

It's not that they cant accept themselves its just that they don't feel comfortable with the sex they were born into. Sex and gender are different things, imo gender is just as much of a social construct as race is

Gender isn't a complete social construct. That's one misconception many people have come to believe because of LGBT propaganda, even though there is clear evidence it's not all sociological. Gender and sex are tied together in many things, rooted in biology. Our sex affects our gender---biology does play a role, though yes, I believe gender is majorly affected sociologically. There are essentially only two genders (this fact is backed up by science) while the conception that there are as many as 76 genders is illogical and not supported by science.

 

[madame moiselle]

If you're honestly reaching out to understand because you don't, and wish to, that's great. But I'm not sure why you would create a thread just to state "I don't agree with people being transgender!"- that's a little odd? But I do respect your right to voice an opinion, that's completely fine.

I think it's as simple as someone being what they identify as. If someone identifies as a man or a woman, they are a man or a woman, fullstop. They don't have to prove that to you, because they're not doing it for you. They don't need other people to validate that truth. But as Apfel pointed out, it just boils down to how much you respect that person.

Also, it's important to note that the generalization that all transgender men and women don't accept themselves is wildly inaccurate. I've seen so many of my transgender friends and coworkers thrive and be extremely confident and comfortable with who they are. Chances are, you've met tons of transgender men and women who you didn't even know were trans. Why does it matter?

Anyways, having an open discussion is always a healthy thing, hope you find the answers you were looking for.

I agree with that. But I can see why the person who posted this thread in the first place put this up---the kinds of transgenders we see in the mainstream media are usually unlikable and are making it seem like they're attention-seekers, that they need people to accept, to validate who they are, to the point where they'd use legislative force (such as compelling governments to make laws to accommodate transgenders even though they make 0.3 of the American population) at the expense of everyone else.

 

[ApfelSeine]

Gender isn't a complete social construct. That's one misconception many people have come to believe because of LGBT propaganda, even though there is clear evidence it's not all sociological. Gender and sex are tied together in many things, rooted in biology. Our sex affects our gender---biology does play a role, though yes, I believe gender is majorly affected sociologically. There are essentially only two genders (this fact is backed up by science) while the conception that there are as many as 76 genders is illogical and not supported by science.

Sex certainly informs gender, though it seems to be a combination of culture and biology. For instance, men have been found to be better with visuo spatial tasks, and women at verbal tasks. That's likely a biological difference. However, this is an average, meaning that some women are better than most men at visuo spatial tasks, and some men are better than most women at verbal tasks. Men are on average physically stronger, but some women are physically stronger than most men. Added on to this is the finding that being told "girls are good at math" or "girls are bad at math" has an effect on math test scores. What you are socialized to believe plays a strong role in how you see yourself. It's not a surefire thing though, or you'd see a perfect correlation. Neither nature or nurture can be fully discounted as a main influence on personality or identity. It's usually been found to be an interaction between both.

In reference to your other point though, many studies have actually found gender to be a spectrum. And from an anthropological standpoint, some cultures have more than two gender categories. It's a western concept to categorize people in a gender binary. In fact, the binary sex classification doesn't reflect the existence of intersex people, who may not have the usual xx/xy chromosomes and/or who possess both male and female characteristics. Point being, it's not conclusive how gender is determined. Considering that some cultures identify multiple genders, and some species of animals have multiple gender categories, it's not farfetched to say that we don't have it all figured out. Some evidence supports a gender binary, some supports a more fluid dynamic (science often is like this, they'll find multiple answers to the same question) Life is rarely so neatly categorized though, so I err on this side of thinking it is likely more complex.

---

We likely won't find an answer to the differences between gender and sex in this thread (presuming, as I do, that they exist), and we likely won't find the cause of transgender identities since the science isn't conclusive on that (I've actually read up on recent studies for a paper I wrote last year, so I can say definitively that it's been mostly inconclusive*). But this discussion is an important one to have since many people don't understand transgender individuals since they don't know any. I ask that discussions remain as respectful as possible, since a lot can be learned from a discussion made it good faith.

*I highly encourage those who are interested in the current stance to read up on the studies though, many of which can be found/skimmed on Google scholar (or ideally your University library page, if you're a student). If I find a good compilation I will link it, but I don't have one off hand.

 

[Remembrance]

If you're honestly reaching out to understand because you don't, and wish to, that's great. But I'm not sure why you would create a thread just to state "I don't agree with people being transgender!"

Misunderstanding, he's actually just confused, like some people are and have the right to be confused.

And from an anthropological standpoint, some cultures have more than two gender categories. It's a western concept to categorize people in a gender binary.

Yeah, sure, but biologically it's incorrect.

In fact, the binary sex classification doesn't reflect the existence of intersex people, who may not have the usual xx/xy chromosomes and/or who possess both male and female characteristics.

Intersex is not another gender and it's really just a birth defect. Hell only 1 in 2000 people are affected by it.

This isn't me being mean, as it is just to learn. So if I am wrong, please prove me wrong directly and not by making a 150 word post on why on the history of genders or some shite.

 

[ApfelSeine]

Remembrance
I'll keep it short and sweet then

Intersex can be a birth defect, but sometimes it's not. That might sound weird, but "intersex" just means "doesn't fit into male female categories". So that can be because of their secondary sex characteristics or chromosomes (which can potentially result from birth defect), or because their primary sex characteristic doesn't fit medical classification of male female at birth. Under 3/8" is female, over 1" is male, in between is neither, therefore making the person intersex.

But yes, intersex is not a gender. It's a sex designation just like male and female. It's a small category, but the existence of it indicates even for sex a binary is inadequate, which is why I brought it up. Gender is more vague, so if the biology isn't Black and White then why would gender be?

All that said, gender is a social category. It's related to, but separate from biological sex, so having more categories is not biologically incorrect because gender does not have to be biological. But since you have no interest in the specifics of it, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Remembrance]

Intersex can be a birth defect, but sometimes it's not. That might sound weird, but "intersex" just means "doesn't fit into male female categories". So that can be because of their secondary sex characteristics or chromosomes (which can potentially result from birth defect), or because their primary sex characteristic doesn't fit medical classification of male female at birth. Under 3/8" is female, over 1" is male, in between is neither, therefore making the person intersex.

I think this works more on perspective, because I myself and possibly many others see intersex as a biological thing than identification or as you use; characteristics.

All that said, gender is a social category. It's related to, but separate from biological sex, so having more categories is but biologically incorrect because gender does not have to be biological. But since you have no interest in the specifics of it, I'll leave it at that.

Of course gender does not have to be biological but it kind of is, I can see people getting away with sexuality and that being a social category but gender is biological because it is our general body-makeup, it's what makes us us.
It's like (getting kind of off-topic) your not assigned your gender as much as you are just told what you are; "Oh, it's a boy." or "Oh, it's a girl." The medical professionals aren't telling your parents that "Well since it's a (insert one of two genders), it better be a (insert gender from the first insert) when it's 18."

 

[ApfelSeine]

Remembrance
You say it kinda is, but that is by our society's standards. Though that said, we're also seeing a surge in people identifying as nonbinary, so that suggests to me that gender as a strict reference to biology does not satisfy everyone. Since we've essentially invented the concept of gender (as suggested by the fact that other cultures have more than two genders), it's no wonder that some people say gender based on sex and others say that it isn't. People are basically defining the word differently.

Even though I say that this society has deemed gender to be based on sex, the truth of the matter is that society isn't a hive mind. It's more that the majority of this society sees gender as being an extension/reflection of sex, while other people within that same society view it differently. There's no not really a right way to view something that is, in the end, pretty arbitrary. People like breaking things down into neat categories, but the weird thing about that is that some languages have more categories for certain concepts that other languages. It's not surprising gender is the same way. (It's like how there's a language that has a bunch of words for what we'd lump together as "snow". Some languages have a term for an additional gender. Technically, we do too nowadays, though not everyone accepts it.)

---

Back to the point though, I think transgender identities make a lot more sense when one doesn't see gender as strictly defined categories based on sex. (If sex and gender are the same, why are there even different words for them?) Though the important takeaway is that you don't have to understand someone's identity to be courteous to them.

 

[ebb]

the kinds of transgenders we see in the mainstream media are usually unlikable and are making it seem like they're attention-seekers, that they need people to accept, to validate who they are, to the point where they'd use legislative force (such as compelling governments to make laws to accommodate transgenders even though they make 0.3 of the American population) at the expense of everyone else.

Hmm, that wasn't the point I was making, I don't think that we're agreeing. At all.

I personally haven't noticed transgender men and women in mainstream media to be unlikeable? I don't think there's anything unlikable about being open and proud of who you are. I'm all about that. They do need laws to protect them, and I don't think that anybody is annoying or "attention seeking" for being transgender. While we're all being civil and wonderful about this discussion, the amount of violence against transgender communities is astounding. I think that any step towards acceptance is a good one, because the rate of suicide and homelessness needs to stop.

As someone who works with a center that provides medical services to at risk transgender and queer people in the community, I can say that transgender communities still struggle to get the proper resources and support. I don't think it's a bad thing if transgender communities rally for laws to protect them. Just because they're a minority doesn't mean they deserve to be put at risk. Even though some states do provide programs to assist transgender communities, the amount of hoops these organizations have to jump through is astounding. I think that any time transgender people can be represented in the media is powerful because it encourages acceptance. Maybe one less 16 year old is going to be forced into homelessness. I think calling it "propaganda" is a little much.

The point I was trying to make is that their reasoning isn't your business, and they don't have to "pass" anyone's idea of what they should be. Nobody has to prove their validity to be transgender, and they're not attention seeking for being vocal and proud.

It's late, so I hope I'm not coming off too strong. Thanks for engaging.

 

[The Mechanist]

There's only one race, the human race. All other specifics are just made up. Now even though I consider race such as White to be a construct I am in no way undermining that it's something that affects and restricts everyone to and extent. Nationalities and someone's ethnicity are a different thing, they are tied to culture and genetics more so than race. If you think about it what really is someone's race? What classifications does someone have to meet to fit under a specific race?

Nooo that’s a species, race is pretty much the human equivalent of breed, Hispanics are a different breed than say the Germans. Different genetics state this, as how Labradors are a different breed than chihuahuas