Arne
Toplofty Aberrant
Fucking demolished. Just because of that imma kung fu your ass after I get bandit to boost me through a very shaddy alliance.
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- Thread starter Iskandar
- Start date
Arne
Toplofty Aberrant
Also, watch me reveal skills like people do in Drifters as a fucking master. I'm fucking subverting the genre now. Am an innovator.
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
Xel
The Paladin
The Masters are the true powerhouses in this RP. When things get serious, they pull out their true power.
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
>powerhouse
>magecraft lower than A+
Xel
The Paladin
That's what the secret skills are for.
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
Cute
Xel
The Paladin
QuirkyAngel
White Masquerade's Blue Oni
lol, concept-wise it's still basically 'my deep connections and various spy-networks land me information i shouldn't rightfully know' . Looks cool. I allow it in Drifters to a degree cause I don't care (and meta can assist in interesting interactions at times). But RP-wise, it tends to make people uncomfortable. Especially in rps where players are opposing each other. Very easy to say 'my character discovered the glaring weakness of another character via the many ears they have around the city' and allows them to do things like 'take a very important npc to the player hostage and force them to use command seals to make their Servant suicide' .
Bias forces me to claim Jacqueline as the best Master
Ohoho, just try it. His NP will rip you apart~
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
Caster will meme on every master.>Caster when she sees magi use magecraft
Xel
The Paladin
lol, concept-wise it's still basically 'my deep connections and various spy-networks land me information i shouldn't rightfully know' . Looks cool. I allow it in Drifters to a degree cause I don't care (and meta can assist in interesting interactions at times). But RP-wise, it tends to make people uncomfortable. Especially in rps where players are opposing each other. Very easy to say 'my character discovered the glaring weakness of another character via the many ears they have around the city' and allows them to do things like 'take a very important npc to the player hostage and force them to use command seals to make their Servant suicide' .
Bias forces me to claim Jacqueline as the best Master
Ohoho, just try it. His NP will rip you apart~
That's why you need a justifiable reason. Kiritsugu had it, literally had the backing of one of the top three families. It made sense. Even translated to RP nobody would complain about that because it makes sense. The issue here is there's no establishment for Dan's character. There's nothing established as to what his group is, how they came to be, what they can do. We, as the players, have no reason to believe they're capable of what they do. And it's THAT that makes people uneasy. If there was some long, really detailed lore detailing this shadow organization that had infiltrated the mage association etc etc, and Koss had that up in the RP as established lore, nobody would bat an eye. But having it as just a quick throw-away line in a CS and nothing more makes it seem too unofficial, which then in turn makes it seem metagamey.
In short, it isn't the act itself that makes people uncomfortable in RP. It's the ability to justify it that does.
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
You would be on point if nasunerds weren't secretive balls of paranoia
Hiding character sheets.
Absolutely disgusting.
Xel
The Paladin
I only hide character sheets cuz it's fun trying to guess who the other servant is. I didn't hide my Master CS', now did I?
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
D I S g u s t I N g
Xel
The Paladin
Shut up you dumb slutty witch.
QuirkyAngel
White Masquerade's Blue Oni
I agree with you. Though some gms will find it easier to remove things like infinite spy-works altogether (or regulate it) to prevent hassle.
The thing is, the strength of justification is always arguable because there's no real definite level beyond interpretation. Players can literally pull powers/abilities out of thin air because it sounds like something their character can 'reasonably do' in their eyes so long as they toss up some kind of justification. On the other hand, there's a degree of creativity that is encouraged in good rps, I think. Character development, plot advancement, things that go beyond the structured limits of the cs which ultimately lead to the continuation of the rp. There's a balance somewhere that makes for something everyone enjoys. Striking that right spot is pretty much the goal of every gm and every gm has a different interpretation of where that balance is.
In Kiritsugu's case, he knows private info and has access to things other participants don't have because his background and connections justifies it, therefore it's not meta? Then if Dan went and revealed his character's background and connections (which no one knows), it's no longer 'meta' lol?. The ancient family that backed Kiri is barely seen in anime. For people who don't know the fandom, it's hardly explained beyond the fact that they're one of the top 3 families, make homonculus, and they needed to hire an outsider to participate in the war. Intricate spy network isn't necessarily part of the ancient family package (seems a bit modern for an ancient family of magi in fact=P). Jacki an assassin from an illustrious family that goes back generations in her bio. Still, if she went and auto got the info of every other master straight off the bat, I'd still say that's a little meta (what if the character's house was established so no spies could easily enter and would've been auto killed on sight? In that case, such info shouldn't be rightfully known). GMs get express permission to establish things in the world because it's their world and generally for plot advancement. They are supposed to do those things. A player doing that always raises questions. It's more a matter of authority and rp structure in my mind. In anime, plot is plot. Characters are part of an established world and do what they want to make things interesting for viewers. They don't need to justify themselves.
The intro of the rp literally said, the info/agenda stolen from the association was 'extremely hidden'. That reads to me like players aren't supposed to easily find out these things (unless rogue group is throwing that info out left and right), which in turn makes the act of finding it fairly meta.
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The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
Don't use bedroom talk in public.
Arne
Toplofty Aberrant
The One Eyed Bandit
rotworm
You too damn it.
QuirkyAngel
White Masquerade's Blue Oni
My thoughts are a pain to organize.
Xel
The Paladin
You're missing the underlying issue that makes or breaks something like this. Justifiability. Suspension of disbelief. Yes what someone considers justifiable differs from someone else, but that doesn't change the root. EVERYONE bought Kiritsugu's shit because it SEEMED legit. You don't need a Silmarilion style backstory to make people believe something. Anime-only fans were told the Einsberns were important. They were told the family was old, powerful, and one of the top three. They were told they were supremely rich, their main base was a mountain euro-style castle in Japan. So anyone who watches that will just fill in the blanks "yeah, seems like something they could do". How? That differs. Some people might think they got it via their wealth allowing them to buy connections. Other viewers might think it's cuz they're super badass magi and used magic. The HOW doesn't matter, though. All that matters is that the viewer was convinced it could happen, and all it took to convince them was some relative power-level drops such as their wealth and status.
All of that applies to roleplay as well. Players will buy it if you convince them to buy it. Usually that comes in the form of well explained backstory with GM approval. If Dan had written up extensive lore and had Koss approve it, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Nobody would have bat an eye. It was just part of the roleplay same way all of us getting abducted was. Nobody questioned how they managed that feat, did they? How do you abduct a guy that can teleport? How do you subvert the mage association like that? Nobody questioned it, they just went with it because we were told they could, and it's official, so we believe it. Yet again, like with Kiritsugu, the how doesn't matter. HOW they abducted us, well each player probably filled in the blanks with their own idea. All that matters is that we accept it.
The only issue here, the only one, is that Dan skipped the step of making us believe it. There's two ways he could have made us go with it. Either detail that sorta stuff in his CS which is approved by the GM. Or build it up through roleplay. Neither of those were done and because of that people believe it's suspect. It'd be like having Kiritsugu do his info-gathering with the einzberns removed from the picture and him just being some random shmuck. Everyone would be asking how he got this info.
Suspension of disbelief will always matter in any fictional story. But that requires the author to convince us we SHOULD suspend our disbelief. This remains the same whether it's video games, books, tv, roleplay. Any story, no matter the medium, must abide by this.
Xel
The Paladin
Coulda had the muscular dad and the witch. But alas, the loli assassin beat you because she had something you didn't.
QuirkyAngel
White Masquerade's Blue Oni
No, I understand it. I'm just saying Kiritsugu is barely justifiable in my eyes because the Einsberns are barely explained in anime and all the 'info-gathering' wasn't even shown. He just got info through his magic fax box.
I agree that Dan's actions are meta (not debating this) because he failed to make his actions justifiable to others. I'm digging deeper into the why this is the case. If you compare Jun and Kiritsugu, their justifications can be the same. What's stopping Dan from establishing his npc's background/connections later in the rp? Nothing is known about it. It's an npc. If Kiritsugu's sole justification is 'i have the support of a super rich, super old family' what stops Dan from using the same justification? Why would it be weaker than Kiritsugu's?
The conclusion I reached stems down to player authority and rp structure.
Xel
The Paladin
Authority, is indeed the answer. Kiritsugu worked because, using a simple term, it was canon. The Einsberns were powerful, the show told us that, it made it believable. If Dan just came in and went "my guys can do this because I said so", there's no legitimacy because he has no authority. Now if Dan gave himself an einsbern style family and Koss approved it, then I point back to "we wouldn't even be having this discussion". A player, on their own, can't just do it willy nilly. But that is, again, not unique to RP. Every story needs that legitimacy, the only difference is most stories are crafted by one author so legitimacy and authority are never an issue. But as long as the author (in this case the GM) says this is how it works, then that's how it works and the players accept it.
Lucem
Ten Thousand Club
Including her own.
