Advice/Help Can we prioritize accessibility?

[Zazz]

Idea , i wish i could like half of a post.

If you're stranded in a locked room with a person allergic to peanuts and all you have to eat is either a bowl of peanuts or a bowl of cashews, but your religion says no peanuts, what do you do?

 

[Idea]

You seem to be getting the idea, but you're missing one important point: It is entirely your responsibility, as a roleplayer, to make your posts accessible. You are 100% accountable for that. Especially since it takes no effort on your part.

I've said over and over and over again that you can code however you want as long as your posts are accessible, whether that be by providing a plain-text version in a spoiler or by simplifying the code. It doesn't matter. Nobody's asking you to never do anything fun or pretty. We're just asking that you be considerate by doing the simplest possible thing to make your roleplay accessible. Because, as I've said no less than twice now, it's a cooperative activity that relies on player accessibility.

Oh man, I have to repeat myself a lot on this thread.

The only reason you're repeating yourself I'm afraid is because you are missing my point. What I am saying is that I disagree not with your argument as a whole, but with the idea that it is universal, considering that there are cases in which it is false.

--->If I am not aware of your disabilities I can't account for them, therefore I have no responsability to account for their existence. In this case the responsibility falls first on the one with the disability to inform the people they intend to work with that they have it.

---->In certain cases it's not physically possible to remove the coding and retain the message. People in that situation have no responsibility towards creating already accessible version, because the thing in the coding is an essential part of the appeal.

--->If the coding is too simple to be reasonable to ask for a secondary alternative version.

 

[Idea]

If you're stranded in a locked room with a person allergic to peanuts and all you have to eat is either a bowl of peanuts or a bowl of cashews, but your religi9n says no cashews, what do you do?

I starve.

Edit: or propose to share the cashews.

 

[Chimney Swift]

The only reason you're repeating yourself I'm afraid is because you are missing my point. What I am saying is that I disagree not with your argument as a whole, but with the idea that it is universal, considering that there are cases in which it is false.

--->If I am not aware of your disabilities I can't account for them, therefore I have no responsability to account for their existence. In this case the responsibility falls first on the one with the disability to inform the people they intend to work with that they have it.

---->In certain cases it's not physically possible to remove the coding and retain the message. People in that situation have no responsibility towards creating already accessible version, because the thing in the coding is an essential part of the appeal.

--->If the coding is too simple to be reasonable to ask for a secondary alternative version.

To the first point: It takes no effort and very little time to place a spoiler with a plain text version of the post beneath the code. Even if you don't know if any of your players are disabled or primarily use mobile, it's just a nice thing to do preemptively. Especially if someone specifically states that they need this, but also if you just aren't sure.

To the second point: I have absolutely no idea how this could ever be possible. Just because you think the aesthetic adds something doesn't mean that visually impaired people don't deserve to read it.

To the third point: If someone says they can't read it, then they can't read it. This isn't about what you think is or isn't "simple" coding.

 

[Zazz]

In conclusion, it would be nice if people were thoughtful, but often they are jerks, instead. Cool. Great. I think everyone has made their points clear.

I starve.

Edit: or propose to share the cashews.

I'm really glad you read past my tired, hungry typo.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Also sort of piggy backing on Idea Words.

To but this super bluntly.

Collaboration is a skill. Not everyone is good at it and not everyone puts the same effort into honing it.

Some people are vary accommodating of their partners. You bring up an issue and they’ll do their best to fix it.

Some people will drag their heels and make changes only when forced to do so by an authority figure in the roleplay.

The thing is you can say I can’t read your post could you please put plain text in spoilers.

There are people who will do so and their are people who won’t.

But no one is obligated to make that change. It is entirely up to that person and how accommodating their willing to be.

And that willingness to accommodate has exactly zero to do with how much effort the accomodation takes.

Cuz some people just decide they aren’t going to do something and that’s it. You’d have a better chance making fire wet than you would changing their minds.

Is it selfish? Yes. Does it make them bad roleplayers? It doesn’t make them good ones.

But is it something they are likely to ever change? Probably not.

 

[Idea]

To the first point: It takes no effort and very little time to place a spoiler with a plain text version of the post beneath the code. Even if you don't know if any of your players are disabled or primarily use mobile, it's just a nice thing to do preemptively. Especially if someone specifically states that they need this, but also if you just aren't sure.

To the second point: I have absolutely no idea how this could ever be possible. Just because you think the aesthetic adds something doesn't mean that visually impaired people don't deserve to read it.

To the third point: If someone says they can't read it, then they can't read it. This isn't about what you think is or isn't "simple" coding.

You know what takes even less effort? That method I mentioned earlier can be done with two clicks. You know what takes a lot of effort? Organizing a non-coded post that uses complex coding for organizing or for easily accessing particular bits of info. Even if this wasn't the case, as I keep mentioning, you are not entitled to me catering to you. You do not have that right, therefore nobody has the responsability. People aren't being descriminatory for not accounting for the actually infinite number of diseases out there, it's not possible.

But the info thing is just one way to use code. Atmosphere is sometimes part of the point. For instance there is a code for passwords. If you just leave a code-free version at the bottom, that pretty much kills the point. If someone has a problem with that code because it is a little clunky on phone, that is no reason that person can't have that atmospheric element.

If I think it's simple coding and you tell me it's too bright but don't say something like "I have a sickness that makes me unable to read bright things" (this is presuming the brightness isn't on something like a bright background which is actually unreadable) , then that's not on the person doing the coding. That's on the other person to stop reading the post in the dark which is bad for your health either way.

 

[Idea]

I'm really glad you read past my tired, hungry typo.

You're welcome

 

[Chimney Swift]

You know what takes even less effort? That method I mentioned earlier can be done with two clicks. You know what takes a lot of effort? Organizing a non-coded post that uses complex coding for organizing or for easily accessing particular bits of info. Even if this wasn't the case, as I keep mentioning, you are not entitled to me catering to you. You do not have that right, therefore nobody has the responsability. People aren't being descriminatory for not accounting for the actually infinite number of diseases out there, it's not possible.

But the info thing is just one way to use code. Atmosphere is sometimes part of the point. For instance there is a code for passwords. If you just leave a code-free version at the bottom, that pretty much kills the point. If someone has a problem with that code because it is a little clunky on phone, that is no reason that person can't have that atmospheric element.

If I think it's simple coding and you tell me it's too bright but don't say something like "I have a sickness that makes me unable to read bright things" (this is presuming the brightness isn't on something like a bright background which is actually unreadable) , then that's not on the person doing the coding. That's on the other person to stop reading the post in the dark which is bad for your health either way.

It doesn't kill the point if it means someone can read it. Is it really worth excluding people for the aesthetic?

I'm not asking you to cater to the "actually infinite" number of disabilities. I'm asking you to provide a very simple accommodation to people with disabilities that impair reading.

And actually yes, there are disabilities that make it difficult to read bright things. I am legally blind in one eye and significantly visually impaired in the other, and people with dyslexia often can't read text laid out in an uneven, brightly colored or distracting format. Don't trivialize disability. Don't even think about talking down to me about something you don't experience because you care more about your aesthetic than creating a roleplaying environment that all your players can understand.

 

[Zazz]

It doesn't kill the point if it means someone can read it. Is it really worth excluding people for the aesthetic?

I'm not asking you to cater to the "actually infinite" number of disabilities. I'm asking you to provide a very simple accommodation to people with disabilities that impair reading.

And actually yes, there are disabilities that make it difficult to read bright things. I am legally blind in one eye and significantly visually impaired in the other, and people with dyslexia often can't read text laid out in an uneven, brightly colored or distracting format. Don't trivialize disability. Don't even think about talking down to me about something you don't experience because you care more about your aesthetic than creating a roleplaying environment that all your players can understand.

I think... they sorta get the point, they're just pointing out that not everyone isn't a jerk.

 

[rae2nerdy]

It doesn't kill the point if it means someone can read it. Is it really worth excluding people for the aesthetic?

People Who Use Elaborate Codes :
“Yes it is.”


Because again it’s not about reading it’s about aesthetic.

Think of it like making a painting with elaborate calligraphy as a part of the piece.

If you can read the calligraphy awesome, but that’s not the point. The point is to appreciate the artwork as a whole.

Therefore why do you need a translation of the calligraphy below the piece? I mean sure some small number of people might be curious. But again that isn’t the point.

It’s not meant to be read. It doesn’t matter what the calligraphy actually says.

It’s just part of an aesthetic.

 

[Zazz]

People Who Use Elaborate Codes :
“Yes it is.”


Because again it’s not about reading it’s about aesthetic.

Think of it like making a painting with elaborate calligraphy as a part of the piece.

If you can read the calligraphy awesome, but that’s not the point. The point is to appreciate the artwork as a whole.

Therefore why do you need a translation of the calligraphy below the piece? I mean sure some small number of people might be curious. But again that isn’t the point.

Because, unfortunately for them, they are doing so on a site meant for writing and reading.

 

[Chimney Swift]

People Who Use Elaborate Codes :
“Yes it is.”


Because again it’s not about reading it’s about aesthetic.

Think of it like making a painting with elaborate calligraphy as a part of the piece.

If you can read the calligraphy awesome, but that’s not the point. The point is to appreciate the artwork as a whole.

Therefore why do you need a translation of the calligraphy below the piece? I mean sure some small number of people might be curious. But again that isn’t the point.

It’s not meant to be read. It doesn’t matter what the calligraphy actually says.

It’s just part of an aesthetic.

But... this is a roleplaying site.

 

[rae2nerdy]

But... this is a roleplaying site.

Not all roleplay is text based?

I mean if it helps just think of it as these people are roleplaying through images.

Which is I’m sure a thing in the literal as well as figurative sense.

I know there were people who drew comics for roleplays awhile back

 

[Zazz]

Again, in conclusion, some people are jerks, but it would be nice if they weren't.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Again, in conclusion, some people are jerks, but it would be nice if they weren't.

Or they roleplay differently and are not obligated to change that to fit other types of roleplay?

I mean I’m not saying some of them aren’t assholes.

But others are just roleplaying through visuals. Which isn’t in itself a bad thing, a bit niche in terms of who can participate tho


Edit to clarify the roleplay through visuals is tied to Ideas idea of aesthetic. Some people really do prioritize a visual feel in their roleplays over text. That is not inherently a bad thing it just means that your roleplay is not inclusive.

Which sucks for membership but doesn’t mean the people are obligated to remake their roleplay to s more accessible version.

 

[Mythee]

Unbelievable what I'm reading here. For all of those with disabilities or who occasionally run into problems with trying to read formatted posts- please note that some of the individuals in this thread who would rather save 3 seconds of copy-pasting their text than to be accommodating are a minority, and that most humans innately DO care about removing these tiny little barriers that can keep people feeling disabled from enjoying something they love, and that you should never be afraid to tell us how we can be more accommodating, and that getting victim-blamed for your exclusion is a very rare case and like Kaerri said up there, most people would be uncomfortable roleplaying in an inconsiderate group and would leave.

I know I've left groups before because I didn't like how someone was being treated.

I really don't like the message this thread sends to disabled RPers.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Unbelievable what I'm reading here. For all of those with disabilities or who occasionally run into problems with trying to read formatted posts- please note that some of the individuals in this thread who would rather save 3 seconds of copy-pasting their text than to be accommodating are a minority, and that most humans innately DO care about removing these tiny little barriers that can keep people feeling disabled from enjoying something they love, and that you should never be afraid to tell us how we can be more accommodating, and that getting victim-blamed for your exclusion is a very rare case and like Kaerri said up there, most people would be uncomfortable roleplaying in an inconsiderate group and would leave.

I know I've left groups before because I didn't like how someone was being treated.

I really don't like the message this thread sends to disabled RPers.

Well yeah but we aren’t talking about the inclusive open minded people. We’re talking about the close minded assholes and why they are the way they are.

Obviously most people are accommodating.

I can’t speak for groups but 1x1s pretty much REQUIRE accommodation because there are only two people and obviously you won’t get anywhere without compromise.

In fact that’s where I typically see the

Elaborate Post
[spoilered plain text]

Set up in the first place. I use it for my own interest check and have requested it in my partners posts to no ill effect.

Which is why my first post recommended 1x1s. For all the problems they have accommodations are rarely one of them.

Groups are a hellmouth of egoes and unnecessary drama in my experience.

In toxicpeople.com, my previous site, I ran into the asshole contingent enough that I could probably write a book.


So that is where my own posts are coming from. The idea that if a person has shown themselves to be an ass. And ass they shall remain.

 

[Idea]

It doesn't kill the point if it means someone can read it. Is it really worth excluding people for the aesthetic?

I'm not asking you to cater to the "actually infinite" number of disabilities. I'm asking you to provide a very simple accommodation to people with disabilities that impair reading.

And actually yes, there are disabilities that make it difficult to read bright things. I am legally blind in one eye and significantly visually impaired in the other, and people with dyslexia often can't read text laid out in an uneven, brightly colored or distracting format. Don't trivialize disability. Don't even think about talking down to me about something you don't experience because you care more about your aesthetic than creating a roleplaying environment that all your players can understand.

Woah, woah. Let's hold it with the charges words. Just because you can't access something doesn't mean you are being excluded from it. Being excluded means someone is going out of their way to keep you out- not that they are not going out of their way to include you.

There are people with disabilities about seeing bright things. You may look back at my previous posts: not once did I mention otherwise. All I said is that if they don't mention it, they don't have any right for me to do anything, no matter how easy, specifically for them.

You may disagree, no, you do disagree. So if you have that right and nomatter what any sense that something is incomplete without code or anyone that doesn't go out of their way to add code-less spoilers (which unlike what you think, sometimes can take hours to make) is a jerk for it, then your entilement to that right must be more than just your feeling. Now I've seen the RPN rules enough times to know there is no such thing in the site rules. So, where is this supposed right coming from? Where is the entitlement that, in the specific cases I mentioned, one needs to be inclusive and can't sacrifice losing pat of their audience for the sake of keeping a certain aesthetic or because they don't know the problem is there and don't feel the need to get extra work, regardless of how little, to ensure some hypothetical person can read their posts without having to post something like "hi, I can't read this, would you mind making a [something] friendly version?"?


Given some of the comments about "minorities" and stuff of the like starting to pop up on this thread, this is starting to appear eerily like a certain other type of discussion I'd rather not get involved in. As such, I'll excuse myself for now. Thank you for listening to some of my points at least.

 

[Idea]

I think... they sorta get the point, they're just pointing out that not everyone isn't a jerk.

"Pointing out not everyone is a jerk" is a pretty accurate description of my goal. All I wanted to point out is that there are specific cases in which not trying to be more accessible is not a jerk move. That in some cases, it's perfectly justified. Of course, there are also plenty of cases in which you do have to be a jerk not to.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Chimney Swift also you might ask the staff if there is a way to put the site in a plain text version. So the codes don’t show up at all.

And if this isn’t possible I’d use the ignore feature.

And just post as if they are not present in the roleplay. And just post in the OOC if you want me to interact with your character add plain text versions to your posts.

 

[Idea]

Chimney Swift also you might ask the staff if there is a way to put the site in a plain text version. So the codes don’t show up at all.

And if this isn’t possible I’d use the ignore feature.

And just post as if they are not present in the roleplay. And just post in the OOC if you want me to interact with your character add plain text versions to your posts.

There kind of is. As I mentioned earlier, if you turn off the rich editor and press "reply" on a post, that will quote you the post in a plain version.

 

[rae2nerdy]

There kind of is. As I mentioned earlier, if you turn off the rich editor and press "reply" on a post, that will quote you the post in a plain version.

Ooh I didn’t see that. Huh good to know actually thnx

 

[Idea]

Ooh I didn’t see that. Huh good to know actually thnx

No problem

 

[Chimney Swift]

I tried that and it just shows me all the code as text, leaving me to spend just as much time picking through it as it would take me with a magnifying glass and text-to-speech.
Leaving the quote as-is shows the code and images and fonts as-is, which again is a similar problem that could be solved by just posting the plain text in the first place