A few doubts regarding systems and magic

[thespacekid]

So I was planning on setting up an RP, loosely based on The Bartimaeus Sequence, where magicians gain their power through summoning demons. 


The characters will begin as mid level magicians, part of an anti-terrorist organisation or the sort. 


The only problem is, I can't figure out how to deal with combat, without taking the focus away from the magicians onto the demons. So the players shouldn't have to keep switching the pov to that of the demon. I was thinking maybe the weaker demons have to be bound to objects, but I couldn't figure out what about the stronger demons. Any ideas maybe?

 

[Tedronai]

If it were me, I'd focus on how they're struggling to keep the creature in check. The demon might be fighting another demon, which you could reference, but you could write from the POV of the magician against the Demon who wants to break free/possess them/whatever.

 

[thespacekid]

If it were me, I'd focus on how they're struggling to keep the creature in check. The demon might be fighting another demon, which you could reference, but you could write from the POV of the magician against the Demon who wants to break free/possess them/whatever.

That would work but I'm planning to have inter-character combat where the demons would be more or less like Pokemon. Instead of them just writing the combat off, I would like to involve the magicians directly, so that they can be harmed too, see?

 

[RatFlail]

There's a couple of ways that you could play it.


Maybe the magician wears the demon like a skin. There's a summons, but it involves the demon engulfing the character in its own form. That solves the POV and damage problem, but may be more like a shapeshift than the summoning that you want.


You could go the opposite route, and have the demon inhabit the character, giving them powers and whatnot. No shifting, but this might be indistinguishable from regular magic.


Both of these link to the old Hermetic ideas towards summoning, where spirits inhabited the psyche or objects rather than actual physical space.


One other solution is have an alternate plane/dimension where the demon inhabits the character's place, but their physiology is linked. Normal people would just see the magicians locked in hand-to-hand combat, but attuned could see the demons participating.


The problem with the Pokemon link is that Pokemon was designed for indirect conflict. A mass audience won't accept kids fighting each other directly in most situations, so the Pokemon provided a proxy. You might give support spells to keep the magicians involved, but you'll have to keep separate POVs if you want to keep the Pokemon link. If the link doesn't matter, then you have more flexibility.

 

[thespacekid]

There's a couple of ways that you could play it.


Maybe the magician wears the demon like a skin. There's a summons, but it involves the demon engulfing the character in its own form. That solves the POV and damage problem, but may be more like a shapeshift than the summoning that you want.


You could go the opposite route, and have the demon inhabit the character, giving them powers and whatnot. No shifting, but this might be indistinguishable from regular magic.


Both of these link to the old Hermetic ideas towards summoning, where spirits inhabited the psyche or objects rather than actual physical space.


One other solution is have an alternate plane/dimension where the demon inhabits the character's place, but their physiology is linked. Normal people would just see the magicians locked in hand-to-hand combat, but attuned could see the demons participating.


The problem with the Pokemon link is that Pokemon was designed for indirect conflict. A mass audience won't accept kids fighting each other directly in most situations, so the Pokemon provided a proxy. You might give support spells to keep the magicians involved, but you'll have to keep separate POVs if you want to keep the Pokemon link. If the link doesn't matter, then you have more flexibility.

Hey these are some great ideas! Especially the Hermetic ones. I think maybe I could have a system where the demon has to be bound to earth, either to objects, or to the magician thus empowering them with magic, as you suggested in the second instance. Then magicians could have magical artifacts, as well as do magic on their own. They could then use whatever powers the demon has. What do you think?


Anyway, thank you so much for this!

 

[RatFlail]

That would work, and it gives you plenty of background to work with. Just pick a power, and then give it an identity and personality. You can also give a character the chance to summon something out of their league, but there's a chance that the spirit will overwhelm the casters own ego, either dominating them or destroying their sanity. It would add some tension and discourage battles to the death (since the other magician would have to deal with the out-of-control demon).


If you want factions, I'd expand it beyond demons. Angels, elementals, djinn, and other spirits could just as easily serve the same function. That would give you natural rivalries among the magicians. There would also be greater appeal for players, who may not all be into the demonic camp.


Depending on your particular cosmos, you could also have gods, demigods, or some other powerful creature that can lend out its power (Cthulhu anyone?). Of course, now we're just circling back around to your basic D&D cleric, but you could add a favor system to explain just which deity will loan you how much. Jealous deities are a more Abrahamic idea, and more ancient religious systems had you contacting different deities depending on your need without a care that you enlisted the aid of a different one the week before.


You could have complex social dynamics between the spirits/gods/whatever where some are OK with each other and some are not, but a magician in the heat of battle probably does not want to feel like a soccer mom deciding who gets invited to a kid's birthday party.


Edit: Just thought this up: there's also a possibility of ancestor or ghost summoning if you want less power creep and richer roleplay. Basically, a magician can immediately access the power and skills of those in his direct bloodline, or she can develop further ties by finding ghosts and completing their requests. So if you have a great-aunt called "Marta the Mountain", you could call on her for strength. A great-grandfather great at fencing? Better call on old "John the Swift" anytime you're swordfighting. So you helped the spirit of a great teacher of languages lead his relatives to the family fortune? Now you can call on him when you need to order Chinese in Mexico.


Depends on the feel you're looking for. Demons have the forbidden power trip angle, but may also narrow your appeal. Not everyone goes in for that sort of thing. Other spirits would open that up, but make things more complex on your end. The ancestor summons would lend itself more to a slice-of-life RP, while you seem to favor a battle-oriented RP.

 

[thespacekid]

That would work, and it gives you plenty of background to work with. Just pick a power, and then give it an identity and personality. You can also give a character the chance to summon something out of their league, but there's a chance that the spirit will overwhelm the casters own ego, either dominating them or destroying their sanity. It would add some tension and discourage battles to the death (since the other magician would have to deal with the out-of-control demon).

I was actually thinking along those lines! So I decided on a basic rule that all demons must be bound to the Earth in some way. Weaker demons could be bound to objects like Talismans and scrolls and stuff, but more powerful ones break free. So stronger demons need to be bound to the magician, and they can use their powers. If in case a magician loses their mental and emotional balance, their minds can be compromised. If a magician tries to bind a demon too powerful for them to handle, they can die or go crazy.

If you want factions, I'd expand it beyond demons. Angels, elementals, djinn, and other spirits could just as easily serve the same function. That would give you natural rivalries among the magicians. There would also be greater appeal for players, who may not all be into the demonic camp.


Depending on your particular cosmos, you could also have gods, demigods, or some other powerful creature that can lend out its power (Cthulhu anyone?). Of course, now we're just circling back around to your basic D&D cleric, but you could add a favor system to explain just which deity will loan you how much. Jealous deities are a more Abrahamic idea, and more ancient religious systems had you contacting different deities depending on your need without a care that you enlisted the aid of a different one the week before.


You could have complex social dynamics between the spirits/gods/whatever where some are OK with each other and some are not, but a magician in the heat of battle probably does not want to feel like a soccer mom deciding who gets invited to a kid's birthday party.

The scenario I was thinking of was sort of like an action team - 4 or 5 magicians who band together in seedy bars and collect bounties, or a team of detectives or something. Also by demons I meant spirits in general, sorry if I couldn't clarify earlier.


Lifted word for word from the Bartimaeus Wiki, 


Demon, more properly known as a spirit, is a general term for any of the supernatural entities originating in the Other Place and commanded by magicians in the world of the Bartimaeus Sequence. Although considered disparaging and more than a little disrespectful by Bartimaeus, it is commonly used by magicians, particularly during their incantations. Bartimaeus finds the word "demon" to be highly insulting, and prefers that people call him a spirit, djinni, or "exalted djinni".


The Other Place is the home dimension of all demons. To its residents, it is a realm of peace and healing in which there is no matter but infinite 'essence', which is described as a mass of swirling colours with no borders or boundaries, somewhere between gas and liquid. Time runs at a different rate in the Other Place compared to the human world, although it is not made completely clear in the Bartimaeus Trilogy exactly what the relationship between the two timescales is.

 

[RatFlail]

Sounds interesting. I've always found the summoning side of magic more interesting because it focuses more on relationships rather than teen power fantasies. I'm guessing that's a book series? I'll have to check it out.


I always enjoyed the Elric of Melnibone series with its power trade-offs and the examination of dependency on that power. Not sure if Elric had the original soul-sucking sword (series is from the 60s and 70s), but the idea of Elric being too frail to live without its power and his struggles to keep the sword from wrecking his life were fascinating. Magic in it always came from more powerful beings that required a quid pro quo trade. The personification of powers is more interesting than the magical engineering (manipulation of energy/will/whatever) that's par for the course nowadays.


Guess the most basic challenge for your world-building will be motivation. Why do the demons even care to grant their powers to magicians?

 

[thespacekid]

Oh, another thing I seem to have forgotten!


Names in this world have tremendous power, and especially true names. Spirits are summoned because magicians know their true names. An important thing in this world is that magic can be learned, though it is an extremely secret and well-hidden art. Those who want to become magicians must leave behind who they were, to such a degree that sometimes parts of their personality must be changed to hide given names.


When a magician steps into a pentacle, with another one drawn in front for the demon to be summoned in, they speak the true name of the demon, in order to summon them from the Other Place. Runes drawn onto the pentacle act as temporary binds until the magician binds the demon either to an object or to themselves. Then the demon is subject to the magician's whims and fancies; however, a demon will always try and break free and return to the other place, and when an enchanted object is damaged/the empowered magician's emotional or mental balance is disturbed, the demon might find an opportunity to break free. Depending on the malice of the demon, they might do some additional harm on the way out.


So magicians will be able to use spirits only for a limited duration, but at the same time it means they can use various spirits for various purposes, granted they have the ability.

 

[thespacekid]

@RatFlail Hey, any chance you'd want to Co-GM with me on this one? 

 

[RatFlail]

@RatFlail Hey, any chance you'd want to Co-GM with me on this one? 

I don't mind helping write extensive background, but I'd like to stick to RPing at the moment. Wouldn't mind playing an NPC or 2

 

[thespacekid]

@RatFlail The interest check is up here if you're interested!