Why *Shouldn't* Everyone have an Automatic Rifle?

Serano

Member
First off, I'd like to point out that the media has been getting this confused for quite some time. They have been talking about these mass shootings, calling the weapons that are being used "Assault Rifle". Quick lesson here, an "Assault Rifle" is a weapon that has the ability to launch multiple bullets with a single trigger pull. It is not a black gun. Black guns do not equal Assault Rifle. Example: both of these are the same gun, the Ruger 10/22, the most popular entry level rifle in the US Market. Just because you add a black paint job and some accessories, doesn't make it an ASSAULT RIFLE!


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That lesson out of the way, I think that if you want to have a true Assault Rifle, that is fully automatic, then I say you should be able to.


Why you may ask could I ever think this is a good idea? First, it's not like the bad guys don't already have access to such firearms. Wouldn't it seem fair that maybe you should have access to the same firepower? And the idea that the government will always be able to protect you from the bad guys that want your food and supplies is just moronic. It's not like you have to have a complete government breakdown or a zombie apocalypse for this to happened. Look at recent examples of Hurricane Sandy and Katrina. People were isolated and cut off from the outside road and had to deal with roving groups of looters. If you go a little further back to the LA Riots in 1992, you had Koreans on rooftops armed with high capacity magazines having to defend their business from out of control mobs that were roaming the street:


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You may be thinking, "With everyone armed with AR's, it will mean gun crime will skyrocket!" To which I reply, "Why you be listening to those idiots on TV instead of doing your own research?" First off, people already own these guns and it's not like you see every day a bank being robbed by a .50 cal. Technically, it isn't illegal for the average joe to own a automatic weapon. It's just that with all the hoops you'd have to jump through, it'll end up costing you $50,000 to actually own one with class 4 restrictions they way there are.


Also, it's not like this hasn't ever been done before in the history of the world. For instance, when was the last time you heard of a mass shooting in Switzerland? Ever hear of all the murders that are going on in Switzerland? No you don't, and that's because there isn't. But you know what is there? Four Hundred Thousands fully automatic rifles, to say nothing for the two or so more million semi-automatic rifles.


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That's right, I said everyone. The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus). (That's right, they aren't just allowed to have automatic rifles, THERE ISSUED MILITARY GRADE ASSAULT RIFLES!)


But I'm not from Switzerland, let me show someone who is from there talk about how important guns are to the Swiss Culture:


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I'll wrap this all up with a statistic, that should get my point across crystal clear: If I was to ask you, which location had more gun violence; Wyoming with around 60% of people having guns and or Washington D.C that has the toughest gun restrictions in the country, where only 2.3% have guns? Give you a hint, it's the one where you don't have to worry about someone shooting you for holding them up.


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Hahaha! Just saw this thread. Laughing so hard it brought tears to my eyes. Agreed on all points. (I get to see all those Gunssavelives.com signs by the side of the road all the time. I may have that misspelled.)


However, conversely ... a single criminal with an automatic weapon DOES become a greater threat. So ... we need to arm our police with automatic weapons, grenades, sonic cannons and microwave weapons to keep casualties to a more acceptable level .... right?


(Now if you didn't catch the sarcasm in their somewhere .... sorry, but look harder.) You see Switzerland is a tiny nation. The USA is huge by comparison. It is a hell of a lot harder to maintain the peace of a nation of our size no matter what weapons are employed. But a single madman with lots of firepower does a lot more damage. Most people can't afford weapons like this legally. THAT is the single biggest argument for gun control that I see. Cost.


As to the two states shown as example - that was comparing apples and oranges. Totally different demographics and geographics.
 
@Mitheral.


Two points I'd like to make before offering the counter argument; The first is that I honestly didn't see the sarcasm at first. That is because police already have access to those weapons you mentioned. Below, in the picture on the right, is the LRAD system which is sonic weapon designed to, "to send messages, warnings, and harmful, pain inducing tones over longer distances than normal loudspeakers." And the LA Sheriff Department recently announced intentions to start to utilize the Active Denial System (picture on the left), which is, "a non-lethal, directed-energy weapon developed by the U.S. military, designed for area denial, perimeter security and crowd control."

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Back to the discussion at hand, I do agree that a assailant armed with an automatic weapon has the potential (The reason I say "the potential", is only because higher caliber rounds generally have enough velocity to pass right through the body) to be more dangerous than a person without one. I disagree with the idea that the police should be our first line of defense.


Despite the police and military asset's best intentions, they can only respond to a crime, they cannot prevent one. Think about it, what if a guy breaks into your home and starts shooting a gun and threatening your family? Let's say that you live just down the street from the police station; you still have to call it in, and they still have to get there. By the time they arrive, you and your family might already dead.


I bring up Switzerland by the way to illustrate more points than simply talking about the crime rate.(As point of fact, the UK which has long since banned even semi-automatic handguns in homes, has a higher incidence of violent crime (1.2 per 100,000 people) to Switzerland (0.7 per 100,000 people) according to United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime survey of 2012.) Another reason that I mention Switzerland is that it isn't uncommon to see people in the streets carrying their own automatic rifles (and other weapons for that matter). In fact, most wouldn't bat an eye lash at a person with a rifle slung over his back into a local apple store.


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Step back and picture yourself as the dastardly criminal, Sir Mitheral the evil man who drowns puppies and forces small children to eat broccoli. Are you more inclined to attack a location that you know people carry firearms. Or, are you more likely to enter a place where you know that you can get in and out without ever worrying about getting shot. Banks are a good example, where guns have been "prohibited" for a long time, yet that hasn't stopped bank robberies has it?


And this isn't something that is just theoretical mind you, but it is what is happening in these places of mass shootings. For example, when James Holmes was trying to determine just where he was going to initiate his reign of terror, he didn't go to the closest theater. In fact, he didn't go to the half a dozen closest theaters! He went to the nearest one that just so happened to be a gun free zone 1. (I'll be posting the link to the article in the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences below for others to verify.)


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Ultimately, my purpose for supporting the legal ownership of automatic (and semi-automatic) rifles is to reduce both mass shootings and the crime rate overall. To be able to achieve this goal, the focus has to be taken off of formal police forces. As already stated, they are only a reactionary force by nature and cannot be everywhere at all times. There is also the fact that many, especially in the black community, have a historical reason to distrust them and thus unlikely to inform them of local crimes.


However, were the responsibility of protection to be handed over to the local neighborhoods and communities, this would eliminate many problems. This strategy would be most effective in African-American neighborhoods that are rife with crime. Parents and neighbors would have all the incentive in the world to protect their friends and family from useless street violence. As well, they would be more comfortable communicating with each other, rather than to white police officers who have yet to earn the trust of many in the African-American community.


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And since much of this violence is due to automatic weapons owned by drug-related violence and gangs, arming them with automatic weapons just makes sense to level the playing field. In fact, arming citizens is I believe the only way to curb violent crime in general. Again, if a criminal knows that they may be shot dead before able to carry out said crime, they are less likely to do so. How many mass shootings have you heard of in police stations, or guns stores for that matter. For this reason, is why I argue for everyone to be able to own an automatic weapon.


Lastly, speaking to the cost, you can actually own an automatic weapon right now without it costing you thousands of dollars. To accomplish this, all you would need is a product that is made by Slide Fire Solutions out of Texas. This bump fire stock is designed to use the weapons own recoil to load the next round and fire it off automatically as long as the trigger is held and bullets are in the magazine. . A video of this system is placed below, and I encourage those who are interested to check it out. The total cost of a M&P 15/22 like the one shown in the previous post, is around 800-1000 dollars.


*WARNING: TO THOSE WHO ARE AFRAID OF EVIL BLACK GUNS, YOU MAY FIND THIS DISTURBING. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED:* (My attempt at sarcasm... never was good at it.)


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1. How do Multiple Victim Public Shooters Decide Where to Attack? [They choose "gun free" zones], ACJS Today: Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences, Volume XXXVII, Issue 4 ^ | September 2012 | John R. Lott, Jr.


(I will be honest and let those people know that John Lott is an avid Gun Rights proponent, but I hope that it being published in an esteemed law journal will lay to rest worries of simple bias. I encourage those to double check them, as I have, to verify the locations.)
 
But .... but .... I like broccoli.


I do follow developments like these from time to time - but more on the cutting edge of what is under development than what is in civilian use. I hadn't heard about LAPD.


The pic of the bank makes me want to do a movie along the lines of Airplane. Scene opens up on a teller as one of the evil bank robbers approach. Then his partners hit the tops of tables, the doors, and the senior citizen guard. They open up shooting off rounds into the ceiling to intimidate everyone. "EVERYONE ON THE GROUND. NOW!!!"





Suddenly all the tellers and even a few people waiting pull out automatic weapons, LAW rockets, flame throwers, grenades, tasers, cattle prods, Dirty Harry magnums and open fire. A few moments later as the smoke begins to clear the teller looks over the smoking corpse and says, "Next please?"


Scenes pans to the 82 year old lady grumbling over her walker with mounted chain guns. "Damn feed's jammed. Be right there young lady."
 
@Mitheral

Mitheral said:
But .... but .... I like broccoli.
I do follow developments like these from time to time - but more on the cutting edge of what is under development than what is in civilian use. I hadn't heard about LAPD.


The pic of the bank makes me want to do a movie along the lines of Airplane. Scene opens up on a teller as one of the evil bank robbers approach. Then his partners hit the tops of tables, the doors, and the senior citizen guard. They open up shooting off rounds into the ceiling to intimidate everyone. "EVERYONE ON THE GROUND. NOW!!!"





Suddenly all the tellers and even a few people waiting pull out automatic weapons, LAW rockets, flame throwers, grenades, tasers, cattle prods, Dirty Harry magnums and open fire. A few moments later as the smoke begins to clear the teller looks over the smoking corpse and says, "Next please?"


Scenes pans to the 82 year old lady grumbling over her walker with mounted chain guns. "Damn feed's jammed. Be right there young lady."
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LOL ... ya know .... one of these days I am gonna get an aneurysm from laughing too hard.
 
I'm gonna bring into this conversation an individual American soldiers standpoint on this. What I say is by no means the official standpoint of the DoD, DoA, USG, or any other governmental organizations. This country is far too large to effectively control through any means what any one person or organization has access to, or can produce. It is simply far to great a task to accomplish. Lets swing it a bit more east, look at Kentucky, my duty station, an open carry state. For those who don't know, this means that any person of legal purchasing age, 21, can purchase and carry a pistol on their person without any form of concealed carry permit so long as the weapon is in plain view from at least three sides.


Also, another point is brought up with the Swiss, a lot of weapons safety relies on proper training in the handling, cleaning, and clearing procedures of a weapon. That is one of the first things that is drilled into your head at basic training, MUZZLE AWARENESS!!! Look how little gun violence occurs from soldiers, more often than not, we are the ones responding to gun violence instead of perpetrating it. The only reason that veteran gun violence is so well known, however, is because of the media's focus on the negative side of life.


I speak as a resident of Arizona at this point, not as a soldier, but an American citizen of the hot hell hole that is the state of Arizona. We have far too much gun violence, just about every single day there is a new shooting on the news, some shootout, hostage situation involving a gun, something. Now if everyone had easier access to, and proper training in the use of the weapons, the gun violence we deal with on a daily basis would decrease from everyone being able to protect themselves.


I know that Arizona is a little skewed due to the drug cartels we deal with, but the fact remains the same. Were it not for everyone and their brothers uncle being afraid of guns and the damage a gun can cause, Americans would better be able to defend themselves.


I'm going to give an example for the masses to absorb and go over. Lets say you live in a decent neighborhood, one that has not known much crime for years and years. Because of this the community feels safe and at ease, nothing has happened for years, why would it now? You and your family are asleep in you comfortable 2 story house, someone breaks in. They have a gun they purchased from some back alley black market dealer, you have nothing. You hear a noise from the break in and go to investigate.The burglar is spooked, runs and breaks into your kids room and takes them hostage threatening to kill them if you don't hand everything over. You had your wife/husband (Gotta be EO here) call the cops before you left the bedroom. Response time is about 5-10 mins, beyond more than enough time for the burglar to take everything of value in your house, and possible kill you and your family for the hell of it (Yes, there are sick sadistic and twisted people out there like that).


Now lets assume you are a law abiding gun owning citizen of the same neighborhood and the same thing happens to you. You still let your wife/husband call the cops, response time is still the same, instead this time you grab a 12 gauge shot gun loaded with buck shot before you leave the bedroom. You find the burglar in your living room searching for shit to take, pump the shotgun and level it at the SOB's damn head. "Make one move I don't like and you will not live to see the cops get here!" you shout out as the burglar jumps from the distinctive sound of a shotgun being loaded. The burglar leaves the house, everything and everyone is safe, even if the burglar still had the gun, they would die before they had the chance to pull it on you, or be missing a limb, depending on your preference.


In my opinion, the second scenario is one I would rather find myself in. Remember, a gun is simply a tool, just the same as a hammer, without the person to wield it, the tool stays still and does nothing. In the hands of the right person, however, this tool now has purpose and a use. It falls on people and parents to train and educate others/their kids about gun safety.
 
Agreed, however, the point of the thread is about automatic weapons .... as opposed to semiauto.
 
Peeps be stupid, some peeps tain't stupid none at all. But how y'all sposed t' tell who be stupid from them who en't stupid? Sure, y'all can pose regularations en' make'm giet der liscense 'afore'n they cn' geet them their rahfles but stupid people cn' steel learn some, real good. T'ain't no raht way t' keep dummies from gettin' guns except'n t' make havn' em illegal or sommat like that.


(Shoot me if I'm being offensive).
 
also about gun control in general. I hit on those points, also i said that there is no way to control what an individual/group has access to, or can make modifications to, take the mac-10 for example, a simple file on the right spot and boom, automatic 9mm. Now it is HIGHLY illegal to do this so i in NO WAY shape or form condone this, simply stating that it can be done. In order to counter balance the ease of making/getting automatics, i have to agree that every American citizen should have access to most any kind of weapon. However, that does not mean release the M2, MK-19, MK-48 i think it is, 50 cal machine gun, 40MM full auto grenade launcher, full auto 7.62 chambered weapon the size of a SAW or M-249 
ok, first things first, in order to make weapons illegal you would have to amend the constitution with a 3/4th vote, which i can garunfintee would NEVER happen. secondly, even if some how, miraculously i am wrong, and weapons to become outlawed, there would be NO way in hell to enforce that ruling over a country as large as the US, the drug cartels and black market is FAR to prevalent in american society that illegal weapons would be a cake to come across
 
Well, I do think some ammunition types should be controlled. You know, incendiary rounds. Too many idiots with no common sense about storage. And larger quantities of black powder - for similar reasons. Heck the guys that transport the stuff are issued antistatic shoes, gloves, etc. One barrel going off will render a truck and its driver a smear on the pavement and a few scattered parts.
 
fair enough, there is really no point in the american public having access to incendiary, AP, or tracer rounds at all, at least not in my opinion. now thats not to say they are not fun to shoot and i understand WHY the public might want them, i just see no reason why they should have access to them
 
Well, heck ... give them full access on a range (taking careful inventory) run by military folks and let them play with the ammo under supervision. Make them pay for the expense.


Half the reason why it works so well with the Swiss is education. My first lessons in weapon safety was on a USMC base. I was 13 and had a blast (figuratively speaking).
 
I will say that some people shouldn't hold a weapon though - even trained. They just lack the maturity. I have nearly been shot by two different brothers who failed to observe basic weapon safety - despite having a father who ran Rod and Gun clubs in the military, hunted all the time. My brothers went hunting all the time. I went ... twice ... about 10 years apart. And yet I could shoot better and had more respect for the weapons.
 
Well, one brother tracked a bird with along a wide arc as it flew by, forgetting I was standing behind him ... and if I hadn't literally done a half back bend he'd have shot me in the head. I felt a nice rush of hot wind on my face.


The other brother and I were getting out some deer hunting rifles from storage and he level one at my face with the safety off, finger on the trigger, laughed and said my name. I got mad, told him he hadn't checked the chamber. I pushed the barrel away from my face and told him to eject the live round. (30-06). One popped out - unspent.
 
yah, some people just dont care one bit about firearms safety, or dont realize murphy's law applies to everyone.
 

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