Why are the secrets of the First Age lost?

[Flagg]

Not only are there many Exalts left over from the First Age to remember such things, but also thousands of gods and demons as well. There's even a Bureau in Yu-Shan devoted to writing down EVERYTHING that people do in Creation.


How is it possible that nobody remembers how stuff was made, or where stuff was?


I understand the idea of having the "lost secrets of the golden age" as a theme, but it doesn't seem to make sense in practical terms.


Thoughts?


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

I think it's not just a matter of knowledge that was lost.


A few Exalts remember.  A few Gods are privvy, but how many of them are paying close attention? Demons certainly know, but why give the keys to the shop, when you can dole out knowledge in dribs and drabs, and keep your adversaries hobbled?


It's not just a matter that a lot of knowledge has been lost--libraries gone. Exalts who had access the higher levels of Sorcery needed are gone.  DB's are limited in what they can produce, even their most powerful Sorcerers are still limited.  And the means to production, the actual facilities are gone.


Take an engineer from today--able to build aircraft. Well versed in material science as well, as a for instance.  Now then, drop him in the middle of Java, without even a slide rule.  Without any factories.  Without any access to the support network and facilities he would have back in the States.


Now ask him to build a 707.  Or a F-16.


This is the challenge that even the elder Exalts are under.  Not just that a they don't have well trained staff, or experienced workers, well versed in First Age production methods, but the means for production have been trashed, broken, or disabled.  


While Yu-Shan may have lots of critters dedicated to writing everything down, have you ever tried to get documents from a vast bureacracy? Especially when you aren't installed within it?


Top it off, with the Siderals playing games with folks' lives, and understanding that knowledge is power in the AoS--doling out secrets is what keeps the DB's dependant on their advisors.  It keeps them lean, close, and listening.  I play it as a vested interest for the Bronze to keep the Creation below First Age tech, because they fear what might happen if the Solar were to return, and had access to their tools and wonders again.  At least by hobbling the Realm a bit, they can control the population better, and if the Solars return, they're going to have to spend some time gearing up, which will give the Bronze a little more time to prepare.


I don't think that the lowered tech level is universal--but if you don't teach folks long enough, horde the secrets, and spread the rumors that they've been lost, people will accept it.  And without the means to those production methods, they really are lost, until such a time as folks can gear the industries back up--and without Solar Sorcerers dedicated to the purpose, that's not going to happen any time real soon.

 

[wordman]

Why did the Roman town buried under Barcelona have to be discovered? After all, people lived there the whole time. Out of sight is out of mind.


But really, I think the more cannonical answer is that, while there are people that do remember, they're not telling you. It's also certain that, while everything might be remembered, there is no one entity that remembers everything, and there is power to be had in information that only you know. That servant of artificial flight in Rathess, for example, might know where tons of flying machines are, but she's not letting that information go lightly.


As for writing down everything that people do in creation, suppose that you somehow gain access to this room. You now have to filter through the daily lives of hundreds of millions of people over thousands of years to find what you want. Some sidereal charms might be able to manage this. Most others couldn't. (Most won't even make it past the lions guarding the doors to heaven.)


Lastly, things change. Let's say you know exactly where you left a cool artifact in Rathess before you abandoned the place. It might still be there after 1000 years, but how would you know? Suppose you go to retreive it and it is no longer there. What then? Surely someone knows where it is, but you don't. From your point of view, it is a "lost secret of the golden age", if if you know way more about it than anyone else.

 

[Flagg]

Why did the Roman town buried under Barcelona have to be discovered?

Because there are no nigh-immortal beings who've been alive since the days of the Roman empire in our world.


But I do take your point re: the rest of it.


-S

 

[Obsidian Soul]

Though, in the right circumstances, a society could regain all of the lost knowledge and even exceed the so-called Golden Age.  Our society is an example.  We are, for all extents and purposes, a Greeco-Roman civilization and we are far more advanced than the Golden Age of Greece or Rome at its height.  The same could happen in the world of the Exalted.  


One idea would be to have the characters discover two artifacts, one that grants them the first three levels of the Path of Solid Earth and one that grants them the first three levels of the Paths of Growing Wood.  Suddenly, they have access to the power to recreate the technology of the Dragon Kings and, just like the Dragon Kings, they don't need any tools or facilities, unlike most Exalted.  They would also get three automatic successes on any artifact crafting roll, as long as it was concerned with crystalline or vegetative technology.  


Thus, the characters, mortal or Exalt, would have the ability to recreate the First Age.  Mortals would benefit because they could create artifacts of true power without expending vast amounts of reasources.  For example, using said artifacts, a mortal with Craft (Crystalline) or Craft (Vegetative) of 5 and an Intelligence of 5 would be able to create a level three artifact in roughly four years.  It would take them ten years to create a level four artifact and thirty years to create a level five artifact, but it could be done.  Of course, the smartest thing to do when you get an artifact like what I'm talking about is to create more of them, so that the technology would spread, but that is up to the people who discover them.  For all we know, there could be thousands of those artifacts in hidden caches around Creation, waiting to be discovered by the Dragon Kings who planted them there, for the time they would need them as primers, or for the enterprising scavenger lord who can get past their defences.

 

[Kajata]

Basically, when people are saying that the knowledge of the first age is lost, what they mean is, to the general populace of creation (and more importantly the Solar Exalted) it's lost.  The Siddy book clearly says they remember everything they knew in the first age, and there are a load of gods out there who will remember the first age, but of course, no-one's telling the solars or mortals this.


The theme of a long lost golden age is one that's part of a Solar game really, since they are the ones who have lost.  Dragon Blooded have lost as well, but considering the resources at their disposal, they're actually doing quite well.


Also, the thing is, while Chejop Kejack and his elder Sid buddies may well fully know HOW to build said artifact or weave such a sorcery, the fact is they don't particularly want to do it, and in many cases, with the greatest of artifacts and sorcery, they can't do it.  No matter how much a sid remembers, he isn't making a perfect artifact or casting solar circle sorcery.  If you read savant and sorcerer, it says that it was the perfect creations of the solars that made the first age truely great, and since the solars are the ones who have lost most, I think that's what they're talking about when they're going on about a lost golden age.


Besides, it's an undeniable fact that the world is worse off than it was before because the general populace is just not as knowledgeable as it was and it no longer has its great Solar Exalted leaders, just low powered Dragon-Blooded; things just aren't as good as they were.  But from the Sid's point of view "Hey, at least they still exist!"

 

[Viragos]

A huge portion of it can be laid at two diferent factors. 1 being able to work publically on something as massive as large scale artifact construction and 2 having the support structure in place to be able to undertake it in the first place. Sure the Sidereals were around and could have made a colossal public effort to maintain that but it would have been public and the Sids have been avoiding that since the Usurpation. The Lunars might have been able to maintain it, some of them were geniuses of the highest caliber like their mates and the Sidereals, but it would have been like trying to build a car in the middle of the jungle like Jakk said.


So yes perhaps the information on how to recreate the glory of the First Age is out there, and had some of the supergeniuses left alive from that time been in public and control it may have been maintainable. Problem is none of the supergenius savants left from the first age are both A. Public and B. In control of a civilization capable of supporting that kind of work.

 

[Sherwood]

I see it like this:  Not only have they lost the technology to make the stuff, but they lost the tech to make the tech, if you catch my drift.  You drop a rocket scientist down in the middle of the desert he wont have the tools to make the machinery to make the tools he needs to make the machinery.


Stashed away in some hidden Manse (or up in Yu-Shan) they probably have factory cathedrals mothballed and ready to churn out whatever is needed, once the Celestial Bureacracy fills out the necessary paperwork in triplicate and filed with the authorizing stamps from the department heads et cetra.

 

[Persell]

I agree with him.


Let me use savant and sorcerer as an example.


If a solar exalted could find a safe place to do this (A big IF)


He could start by putting together a advanced workshop which would cost him resources 5 and be VERY difficult to do. I'd say it would take at least a year just getting the stuff and assistants together.


then he could in his Advanced workshop Craft a set of first age tools (which all on its own would take a year or two most likely)


then he could after a century of life go to work building a new shogunate era workshop.


if he was Really lucky, it might take 2 decades... with him being basicly "Grounded" as such. (if he successfuly bound a 3rd circle demon it might only take 12 years)


there he could begin crafting some fairly powerful wonders though if he was wise he'd start by crafting First age tools "en masse" and having a team of mortal thaumatages craft say 150 or so of them and pass them on to dragon blooded retainers (who if things are Ideal he'll have aquired in the interim)


give him 4 more centuries (And lets presume that the politcal situation in creation has been kind, hardly a wise assumption!!!) and he can start on crafting a relatively perfect 1st age factory cathedral.


I'd guess maybe another 12 years of complete Isolation and now finally he can begin construction of royal warstriders, air ships, etc in earnest.


I'd give him 2 centuries before theirs enough royal warstriders again to equip the new celestial deeliberative.


oh and all of this is based on Yu-shan or some such giving him acess to blue prints without too much hassle, assuming they dont just fork over such valuable information,  the preceding might take 80 or more additional years.

 

[Jarek]

The REAL reason why


:roll: It's because the  writers want the game balanced. If a new charcter could walk in with hard core First age gear, he could slaughterthe Realm and reset the game.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Well, technically, if a starting character could walk in with First Age equipment, that would mean that established characters would have better shizzle, so the "obvious" rolls up faster than yesterday's newspaper on a peeing puppy...

 

[Forn Clakes]

Re: The REAL reason why

:roll: It's because the  writers want the game balanced.

I disagree.  If you want to include writers in the discussion, then it is so that ST's can use the First Age as a way to develop their own stories as innumerable plot hooks; not for any sense of game balancing.

If a new charcter could walk in with hard core First age gear, he could slaughterthe Realm and reset the game.

How exactly?  If there was that much "hardcore First Age gear", as you put it, then wouldn't the Realm have a majority of it, ready for such actions?


~FC.

 

[Persell]

One factor I don't think anyone's mentioned is that the Solar Exalted were dead. They were always the best artificers, inventors etc. Although other Exalts are able to stack up the bonuses to make anything a Solar could, Flawless Handiwork Method lets it be built in a practical timeframe.


This is of course ignoring artifacts that required Solar Sorcery or similar in their production.

 

[Jakk Bey]

It was, but we'll let it slide... 8)

 

[Persell]

I think the key to answer this lies in the differences between the different types of exalted. while the siderials might have vast libraries and pretty much have all the information they could have, they just lack the raw power needed to create the wonders of the first age. At the end of the day the old man himself is just an advisor on a powertrip, someone who takes himself far more  important than he is. It might be comparable to a group of people having all the technical libraries of our time but lacking the intelligence to do something with it (not saying that siderials are dumb, it is just an allegory for the raw power thing). The second thing is that the siderials lack the ressources to rebuild the first age, on the one hand orichalcum was neccessary to build many of the first age wonders, a material they can not work as easily with as the solars could. then the first age needed a lot of high essence beings to operate those wonders. Well the sids are spread very very thin and they only got some dragon blooded in creation to help them... who do not really count as high essence beings. The political infighting surely does not help solving the problem in the slightest bit, but even if they would pull together i would doubt that they could offset the limitations of being siderials compared to solars.


Another thing is that the first age solars were a secretive bunch and probably will not have shared many of their secrets, judging by the power the high level solar charms should have it is entirely possible that they have hidden the plans for their stuff even from the celestial bureaucracy.


So concluding I would say the only entities right now in creation capable of reproducing first age technology are the deathlords and the abyssal exalted both of them do so on a regular basis like the high level artifacts, manses and warstriders clearly show. It is just that all their subjects are dead already and the typical first age wonders like weather machines or astrological devices (rathess) are of no use to them. Even though it is stated nowhere I think a deathlord could easily build those devices, it is just not neccessary.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Safin--Not quite so much in my opinion.


It's not a matter of power, or knowledge.  But a lack of infrastructure.


There are indeed lots of Sidereals with access to a lot of information.  They are also employed, and working for critters who just don't really give much of a rat's ass, and some even have a vested interest in keeping folks from getting the wonders of the First Age.  


The Sidereals have always been agents and advisors.  Not so great at real projects of their own.  They are good at helping others along, influencing things behind the scenes, but getting folks motivated to recreate the First Age?  Not so much, without someone to handle the day to day management duties--someone like the Solars.


Sidereals have access to high levels of Sorcery--which the DB's just don't.  The DB's were great as helpers for setting up lesser Wonders, assisting in things, but without the higher level Charms and Sorcery, they just aren't up to the raw power to do it by their lonesome.  The Sidereals aren't numerous enough, and already engaged with their own jobs in getting Fate set right to do it for them.  It's not in their portfolio to go out and set up production labs.  They might be able to set up a small lab, for their own purposes, but not to change the course of a nation--save through the actions, say of a Solar who will be able to change things for them.


With the Solars gone, there just wasn't anyone who was capable of running the show in the same way.  Couldn't perform the Sorcery neccessary.  Couldn't use the Charms neccessary.  The DB's altered things, but they just can't work at the same level, and without the Solars to lead the way for them, they've let a lot of secrets of the First Age slip through their fingers.  That's not even taking into acount the chaos with Fae acting a fool and Deathlords rocking the house.  


Without Solars to keep the infrastructure, the DB's are forced to work simpler.  And the Sidereals can't keep the infrastructure maintained by their lonesome, what with their other job.  It's just not their job, and while they can fill in from time to time, help out, make some suggestions, they're just too busy to set up a whole technology.

 

[Lotus1]

i think.... that the reason for the artifacts/ technology of the first age being lost is that the writers wrote it like that. Thats what i think.