TV & Film The Last Jedi Discussion [Spoilers]

[Hall Kervean]

I watched it a second time and can confirm that the kid at the end does not use the force to grab the broom. He just straight-up grabs it. It was shadowed, and he leaned in pretty close, so I'm pretty sure he just straight-up grabbed it.

 

[Borkus Lazorus]

I watched it a second time and can confirm that the kid at the end does not use the force to grab the broom. He just straight-up grabs it. It was shadowed, and he leaned in pretty close, so I'm pretty sure he just straight-up grabbed it.

What The Last Jedi's Mysterious Final Scene Means for the Star Wars Universe

Star Wars' most intriguing new character has a name

I don't feel like posting every article but it's a general consensus that the kid did in fact fucking force pull the broom towards him.

2. Destroyed Subplots from TFA. Yep all those cool plots J.J. Suggested at like Rey's parents and why she's so good at the force. It was this cool mystery that suddenly we are told that her parents are nobodies, pretty much making her a Mary Sue.

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in Episode IV. If you want to keep throwing that literary buzzword around, then, keep doing so.

5. Illogical space stuff: this goes in with technology and its use. Like how when the First Order is chasing the rebel fleet, I noticed that when they fired the occasional blasts from the ship that it had an arcing effect. Like how you fired a cannon yet they were in space and the blast was a laser so... It doesn't work that way. Then we have the light speed Kamikaze while I'll admit was cool, it's still illogical. The reason for it is because, if this happened why has nobody ever thought if it before, and also it can't actually work. The reason why is because it goes into the fourth Dimension to travel from Point A-B so they're not exactly traveling on the same dimension (This point may be invalid because I'm not exactly sure I'm right, if I'm wrong I will admit so.) Let's talk about them Bombers at the beginning! You can't drop bombs in space because there is no gravity, and they literally fall as if there was gravity. Also there is no protection from sucking the air out when the Baydoors open, so when the last bomber goes over the dreadnought and the chick is at the bottom near the Baydoors which are open, she doesn't die even though she should be dead.

I'm just gonna quote this post from another forum in response to your argument.....

So I skipped a few pages...are people still trying to argue that the hyperspace ram breaks Star Wars?

Let me quote some dialogue in context:

"General, the Rebel cruiser is charging its hyperdrive."

Hux; "It's just trying to draw our attention away. Ignore the cruiser and maintain fire on the transports."

Now for those of you for whom enlightenment has not suddenly dawned, let me run through the next events in sequence.

* The Supremacy shifts all fire away from the Raddus towards the vulnerable transports.

* Holdo reorients the Raddus and begins to close the distance to the Supremacy.

* The Supremacy continues to ignore the Raddus , allowing Holdo both to finish charging the cruiser's hyperdrive and to close the distance enough to hit the Supremacy as her ship accelerates to jump.

* Finally:

"Sir the cruiser has finished preparing to jump."

Hux: "What's her heading?"

"Towards us."

* Ramming ensues.

Points to note:

1. Charging a hyperdrive is not an instantaneous process. This is borne out by Rey's insertion onto the Supremacy; Chewie has to manoeuvre the Falcon away at sublight before he can jump away again.

2. This process can be detected and monitored by other ships. Another vessel preparing to jump into hyperspace is no surprise to anyone who is actively watching them.

3. Holdo was only able to close to killing range because Hux decided the Raddus wasn't a threat and stopped shooting at it.

4. Effective hyperspace ramming range is inside a capital ships effective engagement envelope.

What conclusions can we draw from this? Bluntly, that Holdo's gambit only worked because an arrogant and inexperienced enemy commander allowed himself to succumb to target fixation, and that the captains of the Supremacy's escorts suffer from a crippling lack of individual initiative. This is a clearly telegraphed unforced error on Hux's part that allowed a doomed attempt to buy time to turn into a crippling attack. Based on commentary from both sides during the preceding chase, the Supremacy clearly had sufficient firepower to destroy the Raddus before it could complete preparations to ram, should Hux have chosen to do so. Rather than being the first naval officer with a working brain cell in the setting, Holdo simply recognised and capitalised on her opponents error to pull off a Hail Mary attack in a way she would never have gotten away with against a cannier and more experienced enemy.

Frankly, if you've got enough superiority to successfully pull of a hyperspace ram against an aware opponent in a normal fleet engagement, you've got enough superiority that you don't need to sacrifice a ship doing such a thing.

Also, as a point of order, the concept predates the Rebels TV show. it was actually Daala's plan* to DBZ Coruscant in the Jedi Academy trilogy, so the idea has been floating around in the Star Wars writing community for quite a few years. There's nothing new, shocking or destabilising about it.


* I feel that this alone speaks volumes.

 

[SirBlazeALot]

Finally saw it tonight. I heard a lot before going in about how it was trash and it fucked up Star Wars lore. And after finally watching it... I don't get it.

The humor was fine (the original series had quite a bit of cheesy humor too? This isn't new), the Porgs were cute, Luke wasn't the same man and he shouldn't be after hella years and all the shit he's been through, it looked great, it sounded great, it was entertaining, and there were some pretty dope themes painted throughout each of the film's major arcs. The biggest plus for me: It was no where near as similar to Empire as TFA was to a New Hope. Killing Snoke really flipped everything on its head. I can see this trilogy coming into its own now and I'm excited to see what's gonna go down in Episode IX.

It's far from my favorite Star Wars movie but I think the visceral hate that people are unloading on Last Jedi isn't because the movie's bad, it's because it isn't what they wanted it to be.

 

[Hall Kervean]

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in Episode IV. If you want to keep throwing that literary buzzword around, then, keep doing so.

I'll use a single example to highlight exactly why you're wrong.
Both characters fly.
Luke is flying a fighter that his friends have flown and have likely told him about, has flown before, has flown down canyons before, has flown down canyons before while shooting small targets, and is descended from Anakin Skywalker.
Rey has never flown the Falcon, she has never been seen to fly anything before, in fact, and she is up against two of the canonically toughest fighter pilots in SW. Oh, and she's descended from nobody.
Luke manages to, with his experience hitting objects of similar size and by trusting the force, launch his torpedoes and get away, with the help of his friends.
Rey manages to pull off complex maneuvers and flips and defeat both of her opponents, both far superior to her, with absolutely no help and no explanation.

This is echoed throughout the film.

 

[Axel The Englishman]

Déjà Vu.

 

[Hall Kervean]

I decided to give Ackbar the death he deserved.

The last transports were away. Ackbar gripped the console and stared out after them, muttering his hopes for them. He knew immediately that there was little he could do to ease their odds, but he would continue going full speed ahead for the next hour or so. Quite a simple plan, it was, and one that was completely shattered when a whizzing green laser arced across his vision and smashed into one of the transports.

“It’s a trap…” Ackbar muttered in shocked realization. His screen lit up as one of the transports’ captains opened a line of communication.

“Sir, we’re turning ba-“ Ackbar cut him off.

“There’s no time! I’ll hold them off; you just get to the planet’s surface with as many as you can!” The captain nodded at Ackbar’s urgent tone as another green laser arced towards the transports. This one missed entirely when the transports began taking evasive maneuvers.

“Aye aye, Admiral!” The captain saluted and the screen fizzled out. Ackbar went over his very limited options; his weapons systems were relatively ineffective, he had no boarding party, and he had no fighters. That left one option. He thought back to the Clone Wars and the stories of the Malevolence, a Separatist superweapon, engaging its hyperdrive accidentally into a moon. The Malevolence was destroyed, and the moon’s surface was fractured, rendering it inhospitable for all life forms. He knew what he needed to do.

Ackbar began to make a slow turn towards the pursuing First Order fleet. He wouldn’t be exact, he knew, but he would be close. He activated the hyperdrive and manually moved the shields to align with the fleet so that their firepower would not impact his ship. While he made his move, he could see that they’d lost three more transports, and a green shot was arcing towards the group.

He took note when the fleet’s Resurgent-class battlecruisers began to open fire with their main turbolasers. His shield was suddenly subject to an intense barrage, causing it to buckle and heave, and were it supposed to last longer than it Ackbar needed, it would have given way. But Ackbar’s need for the shield was through. He saw the flicks of blue outside the bridge that indicated a hyperspace jump and made final minor course corrections.

“I’ll bet you won’t withstand firepower of this magnitude.” He muttered, and then everything went blue, then white, then black in less than a second. The Resistance transports noted that there was a long silence before the now-minor shockwave hit their ships. But they could see that the Supremacy, and her accompanying Resurgents, had been annihilated. Leia looked downward, silently lamenting the passing of the greatest admiral the Galaxy had ever seen.

 

[MsPolite]

What The Last Jedi's Mysterious Final Scene Means for the Star Wars Universe

Star Wars' most intriguing new character has a name

I don't f

What The Last Jedi's Mysterious Final Scene Means for the Star Wars Universe

Star Wars' most intriguing new character has a name

I don't feel like posting every article but it's a general consensus that the kid did in fact fucking force pull the broom towards him.

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Luke was in Episode IV. If you want to keep throwing that literary buzzword around, then, keep doing so.



I'm just gonna quote this post from another forum in response to your argument.....

why are u so condescending?

 

[MsPolite]

I decided to give Ackbar the death he deserved.

The last transports were away. Ackbar gripped the console and stared out after them, muttering his hopes for them. He knew immediately that there was little he could do to ease their odds, but he would continue going full speed ahead for the next hour or so. Quite a simple plan, it was, and one that was completely shattered when a whizzing green laser arced across his vision and smashed into one of the transports.

“It’s a trap…” Ackbar muttered in shocked realization. His screen lit up as one of the transports’ captains opened a line of communication.

“Sir, we’re turning ba-“ Ackbar cut him off.

“There’s no time! I’ll hold them off; you just get to the planet’s surface with as many as you can!” The captain nodded at Ackbar’s urgent tone as another green laser arced towards the transports. This one missed entirely when the transports began taking evasive maneuvers.

“Aye aye, Admiral!” The captain saluted and the screen fizzled out. Ackbar went over his very limited options; his weapons systems were relatively ineffective, he had no boarding party, and he had no fighters. That left one option. He thought back to the Clone Wars and the stories of the Malevolence, a Separatist superweapon, engaging its hyperdrive accidentally into a moon. The Malevolence was destroyed, and the moon’s surface was fractured, rendering it inhospitable for all life forms. He knew what he needed to do.

Ackbar began to make a slow turn towards the pursuing First Order fleet. He wouldn’t be exact, he knew, but he would be close. He activated the hyperdrive and manually moved the shields to align with the fleet so that their firepower would not impact his ship. While he made his move, he could see that they’d lost three more transports, and a green shot was arcing towards the group.

He took note when the fleet’s Resurgent-class battlecruisers began to open fire with their main turbolasers. His shield was suddenly subject to an intense barrage, causing it to buckle and heave, and were it supposed to last longer than it Ackbar needed, it would have given way. But Ackbar’s need for the shield was through. He saw the flicks of blue outside the bridge that indicated a hyperspace jump and made final minor course corrections.

“I’ll bet you won’t withstand firepower of this magnitude.” He muttered, and then everything went blue, then white, then black in less than a second. The Resistance transports noted that there was a long silence before the now-minor shockwave hit their ships. But they could see that the Supremacy, and her accompanying Resurgents, had been annihilated. Leia looked downward, silently lamenting the passing of the greatest admiral the Galaxy had ever seen.

bravo! Ill give a salute to Admiral Ackbar as one of the greatest admirals in SW but also as a fellow Sailor. *Salutes*

 

[United Wenteran Fleet]

At our school we went down to our movie theater and when Snoke died everyone in the theater cheered. I kid you not.

 

[Hall Kervean]

I decided to make a list of everything wrong in the first five minutes in the film, and I'll probably try to add to it later.

1. The opening crawl establishes that the First Order is so large that they are able to amass a fleet capable of fighting at a galactic level. It also establishes that the New Republic has capitulated and that the only people actively combatting the First Order are the Resistance.
2. The movie opens with a shot of the Resistance evacuating. There is no reason that the Resistance would have mere minutes to evacuate. The Rebels likely had hours to evacuate, and the Imperials were within the Hoth system. The First Order, unlike the Resistance, is jumping in from at least a neighboring system, and at most from the location of Starkiller Base, which is presumably somewhere in the Unknown Regions. Given hyperspace travel times [details later], they would have taken hours to get to the Resistance Base. There is absolutely no indication they need to leave weapons systems and fuel on the surface.
3. When the First Order comes out of Hyperspace, despite being far above the surface of the planet, they are visible with surprising clarity on the surface.
4. The Mandator-IV arrives after the First Order Resurgents do. Either they all jumped at the same time and should arrive at the same time (or nearly the same) or the Mandator-IV should be arriving much later than the Resurgents. The only reason it would have arrived as late as it did was for dramatic effect.
5. The First Order, upon locating the base of their sole enemy, takes a fleet of four vessels. Why is this a problem? Because one of the Resurgents holds General Hux. Hux was at Starkiller Base, all the way in the Unknown Regions, and even if they only had 3 Resurgents and 1 Mandator-IV in-system at Starkiller Base, they would still have hundreds to thousands of other vessels in range and within a much shorter jump distance. Their decision to use very few vessels from a long distance away makes no real tactical sense.
6. The Mandator-IV is the worst ship in the entirety of Star Wars. I don’t mean that narratively; that goes to the Sun Crusher. I mean the actual worst design of a ship. The Mandator-IV, for starters, is a bulky 7km-long triangular vessel. Its point defense turbolasers, of which it has 26 (The Resurgent, a much smaller ship, supposedly has 1,500 turbolasers of all ilk), are located solely on its dorsal hull. The ship contains no fighters. Its primary weapon is its autocannons, a very impressive set of cannons on the ventral hull of the ship that are capable of bombarding a shielded world. So why is it a terrible design? For one, it cannot operate on its own. It requires an escort fleet. The Executor, for reference, is better protected by an escort fleet, but could operate without one. The Mandator-IV is incapable of operating without an escort fleet, which limits its versatility. For another, its lack of point-defense overall, its absence of point-defense on the ventral hull, and the absence of any sort of fighters make it incredibly vulnerable to fighter attack. Its autocannons are completely undefended and, if a proper measure was taken in battle, could be quickly eliminated. It is very vulnerable to any planetary guns. It has no anti-ship weapons outside of its autocannons. It has the largest weak point in Star Wars, both in relative size to the rest of the ship and in actual surface area. In a large-scale fleet engagement, the Mandator-IV would be a primary target and, as such, quickly eliminated. In a small-scale fleet engagement, a Mandator-IV is complete overkill, given how large and expensive it is. In terms of planetary occupations it is wholly incapable of doing so. In terms of planetary bombardment, it has a problem: There are other, cheaper vessels that could do the same job on an unshielded world, but a shielded world will almost certainly have methods of planetary defenses, something it is, again, wholly incapable of defending against. Its sole use, it seems, is in eliminating a single target on a shielded world. It is not capable of a fleet engagement, operating on its own, subjugating a world, defending against fighters, or bombarding a shielded world that likely has planetary defenses. It is capable of bombarding unshielded worlds or participating in small-scale fleet engagements, but there are other, better, and cheaper ships that can do the same job. In short, the Mandator-IV is the worst ship in all of Star Wars. If I were designing a fleet, I would use it as bait or not at all.
7. The Mandator-IV is ordered to fire on the base instead of the Raddus. The Raddus, mind you, is currently evacuating, can leave as soon as the evacuation is over, and is a large and completely reasonable target. The base is currently being evacuated, cannot move, and is also a large and completely reasonable target.
8. Poe is able to establish a communications link with the First Order, thereby essentially stating that they are both capable of tapping each others communications at any time and choose not to do so.
9. Hux actually listens to Poe in the first place instead of firing on him.
10. Hux needs to be told by a fellow officer that he is being baited before ordering the ships to fire on Poe.
11. Given the apparent speed of the bombers, they should have launched at the same time as Poe. The First Order, however, has decided sensors are for weenies and has removed them from their ships and are therefore completely taken by surprise by them.
12. Poe demonstrates an ability never before seen on any X-Wing ever and which would have been helpful in both the battle over Starkiller Base and at any time in the Original Trilogy or the Rebels show. The attributes of such an ability are never explained.
13. There is a portion of the X-Wing’s droid repair spot that is essentially designed solely for the purpose of when Poe collects a star and has no other purpose aside from allowing room for a BB unit’s head to roll back. This implies that no droid outside of a BB unit can repair the X-Wing Poe operates, which is presumably standard. This also means that the X-Wing has no backwards compatibility, making it a foolish design choice.
14. Poe manages to single-handedly destroy the entire Mandator-IV point defense system singlehandedly. This is, after discussion, not a plot hole. However, the fact that one starfighter has the capability to do such a feat is unfeasible.
15. Poe does not use his X-Wing’s payload of proton torpedoes on the bridge, the final point-defense turret after his primary weapons go offline, or on the enormous weak point.
16. The dreadnaught captain, Hux, and the other Resurgent captains don’t think to call in additional fighter support until long after Poe starts razing the ship’s point defense. As soon as the dreadnaught captain, who has been demonstrated to be the most experienced officer, saw that the ship was skidding across the dorsal hull, a move which will almost completely neutralize point-defense systems, he should have called for fighter support.
17. The Resurgents do not fire their own point-defense systems at Poe, nor do they launch the anti-fighter missiles they possessed in The Force Awakens.
18. The fighters, once launched, completely disappear, save 3. The Resurgent-class can hold two wings (144 total) of fighters. There were 3 of them, so calculations would indicate that the First Order was in possession of and capable of launching 432 TIE-fighters. The order is given to launch all fighters, so there are that many engaging. Therefore, 429 TIE Fighters fly into warp and only come back out after Poe has eliminated the point-defense.
19. Poe is hit by a TIE-Fighter and his weapons are damaged. In most of Star Wars, a hit on a fighter is devastating. Many times over Endor, a single hit means complete destruction. In the Death Star trench, Wedge is the only fighter to be hit and manage to recover, and even still, he has an engine blown out and is effectively no longer combat capable. In the Phantom Menace, Anakin’s fighter is hit once on the wing and, without the power of the force and his own experience in flying crashing vehicles at high speeds and in tight conditions thanks to years of podracing, he would have crashed as a result of it. Poe has a strange effect: It is damaging enough to completely annihilate his weapons subsystems, but it is not damaging enough to have literally any other effect on the fighter.
20. BB-8 has an arm with an absurd amount of sub-arms. The fact that he was designed with this many arms is ridiculous. Even if you claimed that he was designed with that many arms to deal with similar circumstances where an entire motherboard began to short-circuit, he was clearly struggling with it, a fact that implies that he should be incapable of doing so.
21. It would appear that BB-8 is a special case, just like R2-D2. BB-8, presumably unlike most other BB-units, is allowed to avoid memory-wipes. It’s not a plot hole, it’s just an annoying contrivance that I don’t think has been addressed.
22. BB-8 is able to fix an entire subsystem and render it operational by ramming his head against the motherboard. Don’t need tech support, just kick the thing again. And it is fixed, because Poe is able to help defend the bombers later; BB-8 doesn’t just act as a temporary conductor.
23. BB-8 repairing the subsystem kind of calls into question how any other droid ever fixed anything in Star Wars, given that the other repairs were often more serious.
24. BB-8 is able to withstand the electricity used to power, at bare minimum, the weapons subsystem, and will not only work in any capacity afterwards, but is completely aware.
25. Poe, once again, uses a move never before seen used by an X-Wing, or, in fact, any ship in Star Wars ever. The ship moves forward, swings about, and fires its guns at the two tailing fighters. This move renders any reason for the tail-chases so common in Star Wars completely and totally pointless.
26. The bombers appear when they rise above the dreadnaught’s bow. This indicates 3 things: One, the ventral autocannons really are completely defenseless to attack. Two, there are no sensors on the dreadnaught’s ventral hull or outside of the bridge for that matter, even aside from the lack of sensors on any of the Resurgents. Three, the 429 fighters were not already harassing the bombers, and since they weren’t after Poe, it should be presumed, thus, that they were factored out for convenience.
27. The Resurgents are still not using any form of point-defense on the Resistance, even when presented with a smaller target. Nor are they maneuvering closer to the dreadnaught to attempt to assist in any capacity, despite having plenty of time to do so.
28. The 429 remaining fighters are not only not capable of completely slicing through the weak point-defense on the bombers and the very small amount of fighter cover and completely annihilating them, a feat the Empire could have achieved with half or even a fourth as many fighters, they are delayed for a very long time.
29. I cannot recall exactly when Leia spoke, so I will add it here. Leia is unable to recognize the serious danger that the Mandator-IV dreadnaught poses to her flotilla. Poe has actually made the correct call; it’s not about reducing the First Order’s numbers, it is to prevent the Mandator-IV from becoming a factor. The movie does not correct this, and Leia continues to act as though Poe is in the wrong.
30. The bombers are an impractical design. The lore implies that the bombers are heavy bombers intended for use on land, which I will address in a moment. This means that they are not meant for space combat and to be used against a capital ship. Fair. But they are impractical as heavy bombers as well. For one, they drop based on a manual drop, meaning that the margin of error is very large, so they are seen skimming the dreadnaught’s surface, despite the massive size of their target and even though the point defense has been neutralized. For another, their armor is very flimsy, and this will be addressed later as well, but it means that they cannot withstand much. Finally, their movement speed is slow, and would be slow in space and in atmosphere. This means they are low-flying, slow, lightly-armored heavy bombers. They are deathtraps, and not even just to fighters. They are entirely capable of being neutralized by SAMs or even just shoulder-fired explosives of any sort, and perhaps even vehicle-mounted cannons. They are a terrible design.
31. The armor on the bomber is so flimsy and weak that when another explodes and sends a relatively small chunk of debris outwards towards another bomber, they, too, explode. It is not clear if the bombs were armed or not, so I will assume they were, and that means that they would be volatile. At the same time, however, the fact that the bomber cannot withstand a relatively slow piece of debris bodes terribly for its survivability in any environment.
32. The bombers are intended for land use. Therefore, they would be equipped with bombs intended on dropping in gravity. Magnetized bombs are not commonly-used bombs. However, the bombs the bombers used were magnetized (anyone who says “bombs dropped in space via gravity” is actually incorrect), meaning that they had been actually loaded with the bombs prior to the mission. Clearly, this loading process and the launch of the bombers in general went completely under Leia’s nose, given how she states that Poe should return to the ship despite the bombers already having been launched long before and taking an absurd amount of time to return. That, given the situation, is highly unlikely. However, what is even more unlikely is that the bombers would be fully laden with a full payload of bombs. If they were in a rush and could not even load more than 18 hours of fuel onto the Raddus (I’ll get back to this), this would not be possible; the bombers should have had very few bombs on board, if any at all. This point will be referenced later when the Raddus’s fuel is discussed in greater detail.
33. Poe expected the bombers to lose all or most of their numbers. This would be a bold, unfounded claim, if not for two things: Their payload and their effectiveness. Starting with payload; they had a full payload, implying that every single bomber had a full payload as well. If this was not the case, then this proves the point since Poe was sacrificing other bombers as decoys. If this is the case, then Poe has outfitted the bombers with the entire Resistance’s supply of bombs for this singular run. If the Mandator-IV’s weakness had been incredibly strong, this would make complete sense. But let’s look at their effectiveness: A single bomber’s full payload (this will be explained further in a bit) is completely capable of undertaking the mission. This means one of two things: Either Poe was expecting the bombers to take heavy losses, indicating that Leia was partially in the right, though not fully since it was still completely necessary, or that Poe intended to use the Resistance’s entire supply of bombs in one run when only one full payload was necessary.
34. The Resistance does not lose a single fighter during the entirety of the bombing run.
35. The Mandator-IV’s auto cannons take a very short time to recharge. In all honesty, it’s likely an absurdly short amount of time that is unbalanced, and would make the Mandator-IV more effective if it didn’t wholly lack defenses of any sort.
36. The bombers are fully capable of flying forward without a pilot. It makes sense, but it also doesn’t. There are no other points I personally can recollect in Star Wars where a ship that has had its pilot incapacitated is still capable of continuing its flight. In addition, the fact that the bomber was capable of continuing its run long after its pilot was incapacitated is either a plot convenience or a testament to its resilience, which as seen prior, it does not possess. A bomber is a vehicle that requires very, very accurate precision. Despite being under fire and having no one making any adjustments of any sort, it is still wholly capable of continuing its run with frightening accuracy. This either is, again, a plot convenience, or a point against the Mandator-IV’s combat-effectiveness.
37. The turret gunner is capable of dropping the bombs is fine. It’s a tight crew, and I’m not at all surprised that she can drop the bombs, especially with such a simple subsystem. The fact that she is able to do so with any sort of precision while looking away from the target, being under fire, and with no training is another point against the Mandator-IV.
38. The bomb bay appears to have no shield; hence, it has a hatch to open. And in terms of land combat, that makes sense. However, the bomb bay doors are not only open, but they are open for an extended period of time, opening not only the bomb bay but the entire bomber up to the vacuum of space. Even in the highly, highly, highly unlikely instance that the turret gunner can survive in the vacuum of space, the control, which is delicately balanced on the top of the ladder, would be sucked out of the ship, thus ending the bombing run and the movie.
39. The drop control falls. Again, even if we operated off of the incredibly highly unlikely idea that she can survive in space, the remote was not magnetized and, therefore, was falling with gravity in space.
40. The bombs are capable of piercing the Mandator-IV’s weakness with maybe a fourth of the payload, since the explosions are very clearly present before the majority of the bombs have impacted. This means multiple things. One. The Mandator-IV’s weakness is so weak and so drastic that less than the full payload of one bomber can shatter the hull integrity of the ship. Two. Poe could have likely used his fighter’s payload of proton torpedoes, or even the proton torpedo payloads on the other fighters, to destroy the Mandator-IV, thereby saving the bombs and bombers for later. Three. The bombers did not need their full payloads, and could have operated with less than full capacity, thus conserving bombs even further.
41. No one on any of the Resurgents is concerned about the debris of a 7 km ship being shattered right next to them. In TCW, a Venator was shattered by the Malevolence and large chunks of it collided with the bridge. Yet the Resurgents, who are not much farther away than the Venators, are unconcerned with the exploding dreadnaught next to them.
42. None of the Resurgents use their point-defense against the fleeing fighters.
43. None of the 429 fighters are apparently remaining. This means one of two things: Either the Resistance’s fighter escorts destroyed 429 fighters, or that when the dreadnaught exploded, absolutely none of the fighters, unlike the Resistance fighters, were able to escape in time. They are not seen tail-chasing the Resistance fighters, though they should be entirely capable of doing so and shattering them, as well. They are also not seen, nor is it spoken of, them returning to the Resurgents. This means that they lost their full fighter complement.
44. The trip back from the Mandator-IV is not made at super sanic speed. Therefore, their trip to the Raddus is a few minutes. That’s a kind of absurd amount of time; not specifically a plot hole unless we, again, refer back to the TIE fighters.
45. The Raddus’s hangar is in the vacuum of space because, again, there is no visible shield in front of the hangar, unlike in every other hangar in Star Wars that was not actually open to space.
46. Poe’s fighter barely makes it inside the hangar before they make the jump to hyperspace. Unless the Raddus’s Navigation Officer or its Captain was carefully watching the live feed from the hangar, this is unbelievably unlikely.
47. Hux, a general with years of experience and who has been in close contact with both Kylo and Snoke for years, believes that he is allowed to delay a message from Snoke. For reference, Vader contacted Ozzel, who immediately began to report.
48. Snoke uses an impressive technique from light years away. This is not a plot hole, this is a notation. We will label this 1i. It will come back in the throne room.
49. Snoke slams Hux onto the deck and then drags him across it and turns him around before reversing his own hologram. This is a completely new use of holograms. Holograms have always been facing only one-way, and if you wanted to turn, you would have to physically turn. This changes holograms.
50. Hux tells Snoke that he has the Resistance tied “on the end of a string.” Instead of elaborating then and there, Snoke has Hux go to the Supremacy and physically report exactly what he meant when he said he had the tied “on the end of a string.”
51. String is canon, Revan is not.

 

[MsPolite]

I decided to make a list of everything wrong in the first five minutes in the film, and I'll probably try to add to it later.

1. The opening crawl establishes that the First Order is so large that they are able to amass a fleet capable of fighting at a galactic level. It also establishes that the New Republic has capitulated and that the only people actively combatting the First Order are the Resistance.
2. The movie opens with a shot of the Resistance evacuating. There is no reason that the Resistance would have mere minutes to evacuate. The Rebels likely had hours to evacuate, and the Imperials were within the Hoth system. The First Order, unlike the Resistance, is jumping in from at least a neighboring system, and at most from the location of Starkiller Base, which is presumably somewhere in the Unknown Regions. Given hyperspace travel times [details later], they would have taken hours to get to the Resistance Base. There is absolutely no indication they need to leave weapons systems and fuel on the surface.
3. When the First Order comes out of Hyperspace, despite being far above the surface of the planet, they are visible with surprising clarity on the surface.
4. The Mandator-IV arrives after the First Order Resurgents do. Either they all jumped at the same time and should arrive at the same time (or nearly the same) or the Mandator-IV should be arriving much later than the Resurgents. The only reason it would have arrived as late as it did was for dramatic effect.
5. The First Order, upon locating the base of their sole enemy, takes a fleet of four vessels. Why is this a problem? Because one of the Resurgents holds General Hux. Hux was at Starkiller Base, all the way in the Unknown Regions, and even if they only had 3 Resurgents and 1 Mandator-IV in-system at Starkiller Base, they would still have hundreds to thousands of other vessels in range and within a much shorter jump distance. Their decision to use very few vessels from a long distance away makes no real tactical sense.
6. The Mandator-IV is the worst ship in the entirety of Star Wars. I don’t mean that narratively; that goes to the Sun Crusher. I mean the actual worst design of a ship. The Mandator-IV, for starters, is a bulky 7km-long triangular vessel. Its point defense turbolasers, of which it has 26 (The Resurgent, a much smaller ship, supposedly has 1,500 turbolasers of all ilk), are located solely on its dorsal hull. The ship contains no fighters. Its primary weapon is its autocannons, a very impressive set of cannons on the ventral hull of the ship that are capable of bombarding a shielded world. So why is it a terrible design? For one, it cannot operate on its own. It requires an escort fleet. The Executor, for reference, is better protected by an escort fleet, but could operate without one. The Mandator-IV is incapable of operating without an escort fleet, which limits its versatility. For another, its lack of point-defense overall, its absence of point-defense on the ventral hull, and the absence of any sort of fighters make it incredibly vulnerable to fighter attack. Its autocannons are completely undefended and, if a proper measure was taken in battle, could be quickly eliminated. It is very vulnerable to any planetary guns. It has no anti-ship weapons outside of its autocannons. It has the largest weak point in Star Wars, both in relative size to the rest of the ship and in actual surface area. In a large-scale fleet engagement, the Mandator-IV would be a primary target and, as such, quickly eliminated. In a small-scale fleet engagement, a Mandator-IV is complete overkill, given how large and expensive it is. In terms of planetary occupations it is wholly incapable of doing so. In terms of planetary bombardment, it has a problem: There are other, cheaper vessels that could do the same job on an unshielded world, but a shielded world will almost certainly have methods of planetary defenses, something it is, again, wholly incapable of defending against. Its sole use, it seems, is in eliminating a single target on a shielded world. It is not capable of a fleet engagement, operating on its own, subjugating a world, defending against fighters, or bombarding a shielded world that likely has planetary defenses. It is capable of bombarding unshielded worlds or participating in small-scale fleet engagements, but there are other, better, and cheaper ships that can do the same job. In short, the Mandator-IV is the worst ship in all of Star Wars. If I were designing a fleet, I would use it as bait or not at all.
7. The Mandator-IV is ordered to fire on the base instead of the Raddus. The Raddus, mind you, is currently evacuating, can leave as soon as the evacuation is over, and is a large and completely reasonable target. The base is currently being evacuated, cannot move, and is also a large and completely reasonable target.
8. Poe is able to establish a communications link with the First Order, thereby essentially stating that they are both capable of tapping each others communications at any time and choose not to do so.
9. Hux actually listens to Poe in the first place instead of firing on him.
10. Hux needs to be told by a fellow officer that he is being baited before ordering the ships to fire on Poe.
11. Given the apparent speed of the bombers, they should have launched at the same time as Poe. The First Order, however, has decided sensors are for weenies and has removed them from their ships and are therefore completely taken by surprise by them.
12. Poe demonstrates an ability never before seen on any X-Wing ever and which would have been helpful in both the battle over Starkiller Base and at any time in the Original Trilogy or the Rebels show. The attributes of such an ability are never explained.
13. There is a portion of the X-Wing’s droid repair spot that is essentially designed solely for the purpose of when Poe collects a star and has no other purpose aside from allowing room for a BB unit’s head to roll back. This implies that no droid outside of a BB unit can repair the X-Wing Poe operates, which is presumably standard. This also means that the X-Wing has no backwards compatibility, making it a foolish design choice.
14. Poe manages to single-handedly destroy the entire Mandator-IV point defense system singlehandedly. This is, after discussion, not a plot hole. However, the fact that one starfighter has the capability to do such a feat is unfeasible.
15. Poe does not use his X-Wing’s payload of proton torpedoes on the bridge, the final point-defense turret after his primary weapons go offline, or on the enormous weak point.
16. The dreadnaught captain, Hux, and the other Resurgent captains don’t think to call in additional fighter support until long after Poe starts razing the ship’s point defense. As soon as the dreadnaught captain, who has been demonstrated to be the most experienced officer, saw that the ship was skidding across the dorsal hull, a move which will almost completely neutralize point-defense systems, he should have called for fighter support.
17. The Resurgents do not fire their own point-defense systems at Poe, nor do they launch the anti-fighter missiles they possessed in The Force Awakens.
18. The fighters, once launched, completely disappear, save 3. The Resurgent-class can hold two wings (144 total) of fighters. There were 3 of them, so calculations would indicate that the First Order was in possession of and capable of launching 432 TIE-fighters. The order is given to launch all fighters, so there are that many engaging. Therefore, 429 TIE Fighters fly into warp and only come back out after Poe has eliminated the point-defense.
19. Poe is hit by a TIE-Fighter and his weapons are damaged. In most of Star Wars, a hit on a fighter is devastating. Many times over Endor, a single hit means complete destruction. In the Death Star trench, Wedge is the only fighter to be hit and manage to recover, and even still, he has an engine blown out and is effectively no longer combat capable. In the Phantom Menace, Anakin’s fighter is hit once on the wing and, without the power of the force and his own experience in flying crashing vehicles at high speeds and in tight conditions thanks to years of podracing, he would have crashed as a result of it. Poe has a strange effect: It is damaging enough to completely annihilate his weapons subsystems, but it is not damaging enough to have literally any other effect on the fighter.
20. BB-8 has an arm with an absurd amount of sub-arms. The fact that he was designed with this many arms is ridiculous. Even if you claimed that he was designed with that many arms to deal with similar circumstances where an entire motherboard began to short-circuit, he was clearly struggling with it, a fact that implies that he should be incapable of doing so.
21. It would appear that BB-8 is a special case, just like R2-D2. BB-8, presumably unlike most other BB-units, is allowed to avoid memory-wipes. It’s not a plot hole, it’s just an annoying contrivance that I don’t think has been addressed.
22. BB-8 is able to fix an entire subsystem and render it operational by ramming his head against the motherboard. Don’t need tech support, just kick the thing again. And it is fixed, because Poe is able to help defend the bombers later; BB-8 doesn’t just act as a temporary conductor.
23. BB-8 repairing the subsystem kind of calls into question how any other droid ever fixed anything in Star Wars, given that the other repairs were often more serious.
24. BB-8 is able to withstand the electricity used to power, at bare minimum, the weapons subsystem, and will not only work in any capacity afterwards, but is completely aware.
25. Poe, once again, uses a move never before seen used by an X-Wing, or, in fact, any ship in Star Wars ever. The ship moves forward, swings about, and fires its guns at the two tailing fighters. This move renders any reason for the tail-chases so common in Star Wars completely and totally pointless.
26. The bombers appear when they rise above the dreadnaught’s bow. This indicates 3 things: One, the ventral autocannons really are completely defenseless to attack. Two, there are no sensors on the dreadnaught’s ventral hull or outside of the bridge for that matter, even aside from the lack of sensors on any of the Resurgents. Three, the 429 fighters were not already harassing the bombers, and since they weren’t after Poe, it should be presumed, thus, that they were factored out for convenience.
27. The Resurgents are still not using any form of point-defense on the Resistance, even when presented with a smaller target. Nor are they maneuvering closer to the dreadnaught to attempt to assist in any capacity, despite having plenty of time to do so.
28. The 429 remaining fighters are not only not capable of completely slicing through the weak point-defense on the bombers and the very small amount of fighter cover and completely annihilating them, a feat the Empire could have achieved with half or even a fourth as many fighters, they are delayed for a very long time.
29. I cannot recall exactly when Leia spoke, so I will add it here. Leia is unable to recognize the serious danger that the Mandator-IV dreadnaught poses to her flotilla. Poe has actually made the correct call; it’s not about reducing the First Order’s numbers, it is to prevent the Mandator-IV from becoming a factor. The movie does not correct this, and Leia continues to act as though Poe is in the wrong.
30. The bombers are an impractical design. The lore implies that the bombers are heavy bombers intended for use on land, which I will address in a moment. This means that they are not meant for space combat and to be used against a capital ship. Fair. But they are impractical as heavy bombers as well. For one, they drop based on a manual drop, meaning that the margin of error is very large, so they are seen skimming the dreadnaught’s surface, despite the massive size of their target and even though the point defense has been neutralized. For another, their armor is very flimsy, and this will be addressed later as well, but it means that they cannot withstand much. Finally, their movement speed is slow, and would be slow in space and in atmosphere. This means they are low-flying, slow, lightly-armored heavy bombers. They are deathtraps, and not even just to fighters. They are entirely capable of being neutralized by SAMs or even just shoulder-fired explosives of any sort, and perhaps even vehicle-mounted cannons. They are a terrible design.
31. The armor on the bomber is so flimsy and weak that when another explodes and sends a relatively small chunk of debris outwards towards another bomber, they, too, explode. It is not clear if the bombs were armed or not, so I will assume they were, and that means that they would be volatile. At the same time, however, the fact that the bomber cannot withstand a relatively slow piece of debris bodes terribly for its survivability in any environment.
32. The bombers are intended for land use. Therefore, they would be equipped with bombs intended on dropping in gravity. Magnetized bombs are not commonly-used bombs. However, the bombs the bombers used were magnetized (anyone who says “bombs dropped in space via gravity” is actually incorrect), meaning that they had been actually loaded with the bombs prior to the mission. Clearly, this loading process and the launch of the bombers in general went completely under Leia’s nose, given how she states that Poe should return to the ship despite the bombers already having been launched long before and taking an absurd amount of time to return. That, given the situation, is highly unlikely. However, what is even more unlikely is that the bombers would be fully laden with a full payload of bombs. If they were in a rush and could not even load more than 18 hours of fuel onto the Raddus (I’ll get back to this), this would not be possible; the bombers should have had very few bombs on board, if any at all. This point will be referenced later when the Raddus’s fuel is discussed in greater detail.
33. Poe expected the bombers to lose all or most of their numbers. This would be a bold, unfounded claim, if not for two things: Their payload and their effectiveness. Starting with payload; they had a full payload, implying that every single bomber had a full payload as well. If this was not the case, then this proves the point since Poe was sacrificing other bombers as decoys. If this is the case, then Poe has outfitted the bombers with the entire Resistance’s supply of bombs for this singular run. If the Mandator-IV’s weakness had been incredibly strong, this would make complete sense. But let’s look at their effectiveness: A single bomber’s full payload (this will be explained further in a bit) is completely capable of undertaking the mission. This means one of two things: Either Poe was expecting the bombers to take heavy losses, indicating that Leia was partially in the right, though not fully since it was still completely necessary, or that Poe intended to use the Resistance’s entire supply of bombs in one run when only one full payload was necessary.
34. The Resistance does not lose a single fighter during the entirety of the bombing run.
35. The Mandator-IV’s auto cannons take a very short time to recharge. In all honesty, it’s likely an absurdly short amount of time that is unbalanced, and would make the Mandator-IV more effective if it didn’t wholly lack defenses of any sort.
36. The bombers are fully capable of flying forward without a pilot. It makes sense, but it also doesn’t. There are no other points I personally can recollect in Star Wars where a ship that has had its pilot incapacitated is still capable of continuing its flight. In addition, the fact that the bomber was capable of continuing its run long after its pilot was incapacitated is either a plot convenience or a testament to its resilience, which as seen prior, it does not possess. A bomber is a vehicle that requires very, very accurate precision. Despite being under fire and having no one making any adjustments of any sort, it is still wholly capable of continuing its run with frightening accuracy. This either is, again, a plot convenience, or a point against the Mandator-IV’s combat-effectiveness.
37. The turret gunner is capable of dropping the bombs is fine. It’s a tight crew, and I’m not at all surprised that she can drop the bombs, especially with such a simple subsystem. The fact that she is able to do so with any sort of precision while looking away from the target, being under fire, and with no training is another point against the Mandator-IV.
38. The bomb bay appears to have no shield; hence, it has a hatch to open. And in terms of land combat, that makes sense. However, the bomb bay doors are not only open, but they are open for an extended period of time, opening not only the bomb bay but the entire bomber up to the vacuum of space. Even in the highly, highly, highly unlikely instance that the turret gunner can survive in the vacuum of space, the control, which is delicately balanced on the top of the ladder, would be sucked out of the ship, thus ending the bombing run and the movie.
39. The drop control falls. Again, even if we operated off of the incredibly highly unlikely idea that she can survive in space, the remote was not magnetized and, therefore, was falling with gravity in space.
40. The bombs are capable of piercing the Mandator-IV’s weakness with maybe a fourth of the payload, since the explosions are very clearly present before the majority of the bombs have impacted. This means multiple things. One. The Mandator-IV’s weakness is so weak and so drastic that less than the full payload of one bomber can shatter the hull integrity of the ship. Two. Poe could have likely used his fighter’s payload of proton torpedoes, or even the proton torpedo payloads on the other fighters, to destroy the Mandator-IV, thereby saving the bombs and bombers for later. Three. The bombers did not need their full payloads, and could have operated with less than full capacity, thus conserving bombs even further.
41. No one on any of the Resurgents is concerned about the debris of a 7 km ship being shattered right next to them. In TCW, a Venator was shattered by the Malevolence and large chunks of it collided with the bridge. Yet the Resurgents, who are not much farther away than the Venators, are unconcerned with the exploding dreadnaught next to them.
42. None of the Resurgents use their point-defense against the fleeing fighters.
43. None of the 429 fighters are apparently remaining. This means one of two things: Either the Resistance’s fighter escorts destroyed 429 fighters, or that when the dreadnaught exploded, absolutely none of the fighters, unlike the Resistance fighters, were able to escape in time. They are not seen tail-chasing the Resistance fighters, though they should be entirely capable of doing so and shattering them, as well. They are also not seen, nor is it spoken of, them returning to the Resurgents. This means that they lost their full fighter complement.
44. The trip back from the Mandator-IV is not made at super sanic speed. Therefore, their trip to the Raddus is a few minutes. That’s a kind of absurd amount of time; not specifically a plot hole unless we, again, refer back to the TIE fighters.
45. The Raddus’s hangar is in the vacuum of space because, again, there is no visible shield in front of the hangar, unlike in every other hangar in Star Wars that was not actually open to space.
46. Poe’s fighter barely makes it inside the hangar before they make the jump to hyperspace. Unless the Raddus’s Navigation Officer or its Captain was carefully watching the live feed from the hangar, this is unbelievably unlikely.
47. Hux, a general with years of experience and who has been in close contact with both Kylo and Snoke for years, believes that he is allowed to delay a message from Snoke. For reference, Vader contacted Ozzel, who immediately began to report.
48. Snoke uses an impressive technique from light years away. This is not a plot hole, this is a notation. We will label this 1i. It will come back in the throne room.
49. Snoke slams Hux onto the deck and then drags him across it and turns him around before reversing his own hologram. This is a completely new use of holograms. Holograms have always been facing only one-way, and if you wanted to turn, you would have to physically turn. This changes holograms.
50. Hux tells Snoke that he has the Resistance tied “on the end of a string.” Instead of elaborating then and there, Snoke has Hux go to the Supremacy and physically report exactly what he meant when he said he had the tied “on the end of a string.”
51. String is canon, Revan is not.

this is beautiful

 

[Hall Kervean]

this is beautiful

Thank you very much.
This took hours to write XD.

 

[MsPolite]

Thank you very much.
This took hours to write XD.

i can imagine. you know ima be honest, i dont think i like starwars after seeing 8. and i know when most ppl say this they are exaggerating, but after seeing this garbage, it demolished one of my childhood fandom.

 

[Hall Kervean]

i can imagine. you know ima be honest, i dont think i like starwars after seeing 8. and i know when most ppl say this they are exaggerating, but after seeing this garbage, it demolished one of my childhood fandom.

It's hilarious that they have actually narrowed their options to near zero for episode 9 after this movie.

 

[Axel The Englishman]

Me thinks there were no technical designers on set for this project.

 

[Hall Kervean]

It's not directly TLJ-related, but it is SW-related.

The Han Solo movie is under outer space movies, not Star Wars movies.
That doesn't bode well at all.

 

[DailyRoLord]

PROS:

- Kylo Ren. Loved his character, loved his scenes.
- Luke’s death scene. That ending scene was done well, and I liked that he died peacefully rather than in a fight.
- The fight against the royal guards. Though this doesn’t replace real battles…
- The Snoke scenes. Too bad they weren’t longer…
- The relationship that was built with Ren and Rey. The telepathic connection.
- The creatures. Not the porgs, but the crystal foxes and the horse-like creatures. (What are they called again?)
- Getting rid of Kylo’s mask. Glad this was done sooner than later.
- The new characters. Rose and the admiral. Notice how I didn’t say DJ…
- The Yoda scene. I just love watching Yoda and Luke become pyromaniacs- not that, but I liked seeing Yoda back for a bit.
- Hux. I liked seeing his hatred towards Ren develop further.
- Rey. I enjoyed seeing her scenes as much as in TFA.
- The Crait battle. It ended with the Resistance having suffered severe setbacks. Which brings me into this next part…
- The setup for the Resistance in Episode IX. They will be struggling to gain strength back.

CONS:

- Worst thing by far was that bullshit Leia-in-space scene. The disregard to actual space and inventing new things with the Force was bullshit.
- Poe. Did you have to make Poe seem like an immature child instead of a Resistance commander?
- THE SUBPLOTS. The whole casino thing was bullshit, and none of it needed to happen. There was way too much going on.
- Maz Kanata. Either have her make an actual appearance, or leave her out completely. She was just there to assign a quest.
- Phasma. A wasted character. She was killed off so suddenly, and only had, what, ten minutes in the movie?
- DJ, or as I like to say, the new Lando. He was a boring, pointless character who had nothing going on to him.
- The casino. Can we please have a movie without a casino scene for once?
- The Force. Luke can travel across the galaxy, Leia can survive in space, and other stuff like this.
- The Snoke scenes and Phasma scenes were way too short.
- Luke’s character. This wasn’t a major problem. Yes, he’s been through shit, but he was still a jerk.


CONCLUSION:

Good acting, horrible plot. Worst plot in any Star Wars movie. Good setup for movie IX. Somewhat disappointed by VIII, but I’m hopeful for IX.

 

[ABetterNickname]

I watched the movie this weekend and I really do believe this was one of the worst movies i've ever watched.

It is everything i was afraid of when Disney took over the Star Wars universe. It sucks.