Solar Brawl - more potent than before, but potent enough?

[MOK]

Brawl has all manner of useful offensive possibilities.  We could come up with different gimmicks all day.  We could spit out excellent made Brawl charms like nobodies business, if we wanted.


But even with applying these various charms, none of them touch on the reason brawl needs help(which is the topic).


Brawl needs help because of it's lack of means to avoid dying.  A defense.  You could argue, with many valid points in this case, that a great offense could serve as a good defense.  But given that the common theme of Defense>Offense, Brawl will never be equivalent to either other close combat abilities no matter how powerful the tree is without it's own defense.


** Edit BTW, thanks Jhrazor for pointing that one out.  Iron Skin Concentration's the one that reduces a hit to minimum?  Damn.  That wont work then.  Too bad, I really like how it changed things.


Can anyone else think of a way around this?  If Brawl could turn soak into a viable defense, we'd have our perfect thematic solution.  We just need to come up with the right persistant.

 

[memesis]

Brawl needs help because of it's lack of means to avoid dying.  A defense.  You could argue, with many valid points in this case, that a great offense could serve as a good defense.  But given that the common theme of Defense>Offense, Brawl will never be equivalent to either other close combat abilities no matter how powerful the tree is without it's own defense.

Most Martial arts Trees I am aware of do not come with any persistent or reflexive defense either.  About all they have is dice penalizers (like Snake Form) and soak enhancers (like Essence Fangs & Scales).  And, frankly, those are put to shame by Solar Charms outside MA.  The exceptions I'm aware of are Five-Dragon Block (which is weak), the parry-hold Charm in Mantis Form (a defense-driven style anyway), and the high-on-the-tree persistent parry of Celestial Monkey.


For that matter, Archery and Thrown don't really come with any sort of defensive options, period.  So start looking at the compensatory factors that allow Archer and Thrower combatants to stay competitive, and use those.


"But they work at range!", I hear you say.  That's nice, but so what?  Archery's range is considerable compared to the average movement rate, but Monkey Leap Technique, Soaring Crane, or Leaping Dodge Method will put me into close combat with archer-snipers inside of 10 seconds.  I will laugh if you talk about Thrown's range.


If you say Brawl should THEMATICALLY offer some defenses, I would agree - probably a basic parry and/or counterattack, like I outlined above.  But I'm as willing to accept tank-like armored brawlers as I am the bare-skinned giant powerhouses that everyone seems to enjoy, and I actually enjoy the armored brawler concept more.  And how about the nimble, dodge-based brawler, that doesn't rely on uber-soak?  Why not let those abilities be granted by other Charm trees, and let Brawl focus on what it's good for?

 

[Andrew02]

Brawl needs help because of it's lack of means to avoid dying.  A defense.  You could argue, with many valid points in this case, that a great offense could serve as a good defense.  But given that the common theme of Defense>Offense, Brawl will never be equivalent to either other close combat abilities no matter how powerful the tree is without it's own defense.

I don't think Brawl needs this. Dodge has no way to actually KILL someone except by happy accident (say, Safety Among Enemies). Melee doesn't really do much in the way of hurting people beyond the most cursory of effects for Solars, and stands out because it's got the blowjob push to end all blowjob pushes with HGD.


Seriously, if that is what you are chomping at the bit for . . . make a HGD for Brawl. Make a FFBS for Brawl. Your problem will vanish instantly. I'm not very convinced that Defense>Offense much anymore these days. HGD costs willpower, which is finite. FFBS provides a minimal, barebones defense that will need to be supplemented with some dice adder against anything meaningful. The attacker can wail away for free, at no cost. 10 uses of HGD adds up, and the committed essence on FFBS might just come back to bite you in the ass later. Meanwhile, the attacker doesn't have to spend a single mote or point of willpower to get you to keep pumping essence into your defense.


Brawl could easily be the IT ability for killing if it had a perfect attack . . . because only Solars and Abyssals have ready access to perfect effects. Anything below Dragon-Blooded would be fucked by a Brawl charm that made an attack perfect.

 

[Joseph]

I don't think Brawl needs this. Dodge has no way to actually KILL someone except by happy accident (say, Safety Among Enemies). Melee doesn't really do much in the way of hurting people beyond the most cursory of effects for Solars, and stands out because it's got the blowjob push to end all blowjob pushes with HGD.

You realize Melee is currently both the best offensive and defensive ability, right?  You could create loads of custom Charms in dodge to remedy this, but you could also make almost identical versions in Melee to shift the balance back.


As long as Melee can be used defensively, Melee will always outclass every other ability for Solars.  Personally, I am considering just taking away the ability to defend with attack abilities and rolling dodging, parrying, and finding cover all into Dodge, changing it into "defense."

 

[Andrew02]

You realize Melee is currently both the best offensive and defensive ability, right?

On the defense side of things, yes. Nothing beats the almighty rules-shattering HGD and its Abyssal equivalent.


On the offensive side, I'm not entirely convinced it's the charms themselves that are doing the work in making Melee so grand.

 

[Joseph]

On the offensive side, I'm not entirely convinced it's the charms themselves that are doing the work in making Melee so grand.

Oh, it's not.  It's just that Melee and Brawl could have an IDENTICAL Charm that, say, gave you +10 dice to hit, and Melee would be better due to insane weapon bonuses.  


The only real advantage of brawl over melee is not needing to be armed... but with Melee Charms you quickly end up NEVER having to worry about not being armed, given you can start teleporting your artifact sword to you and shit, and it's incredibly hard to disarm in the first place.  


You could go and make equally good "Brawling Aids" but that really sort of defeats the spirit of Brawl.

 

[The Scorp]

On the offensive side, I'm not entirely convinced it's the charms themselves that are doing the work in making Melee so grand.

Oh, it's not.  It's just that Melee and Brawl could have an IDENTICAL Charm that, say, gave you +10 dice to hit, and Melee would be better due to insane weapon bonuses.  


The only real advantage of brawl over melee is not needing to be armed... but with Melee Charms you quickly end up NEVER having to worry about not being armed, given you can start teleporting your artifact sword to you and shit, and it's incredibly hard to disarm in the first place.  


You could go and make equally good "Brawling Aids" but that really sort of defeats the spirit of Brawl.

And dont forget, you could pick up a stick/fying pan/chair and use the melee defense charms even if you didnt have Summon Loyal Weapon, or whatever its called.

 

[MOK]

The entire point I'm driving at is that Dodge is not part of the equation.  Big red X over dodge.  This is because everyone can take dodge, and for the purposes of this discussion, HAS taken dodge.  We're thinking in terms of nominal cheese monkey powergamer balance.


So it boils down to Brawler = Dodge.  Melee = Dodge + Parry.  


Martial Arts is a bit weird, but it does have plenty of defensive capabilities, and enough tricks that I think it equals out in terms of defensive options.


As mentioned in the beginning thread, I propose that Brawl *shouldn't* have the melee equivalent parry charms.  It seems out of theme.  Keep in mind, we're playing pretend that these are canon charms we're creating.  Not just random useful and otherwise acceptable custom charm that X character has because he wants it.


Wait.. Didn't we cover all this already?

 

[Joseph]

If Brawl shouldn't have "parry" style defensive Charms, maybe the option to block should just be removed from Brawl entirely, and replaced with another mechanic.  This would both give it more actual built in flavor, and distinguish it from Martial Arts.  Perhaps allow someone to use their Stamina + Brawl to defend, raising their soak by one point against one attack per success.  This would require a dice action just like parrying, and one could not parry AND use "Brawl Toughness" against the same attack; it would "fill" the parry slot mechanically.


This way, Brawler have Dodge and "Brawl Toughness," and Meleeists have Dodge and Parry.  Making Brawl flat out inferior defensively though is lame, because it at BEST can hope to be even offensively, and Artifacts make even that unlikely.

 

[MOK]

Exactly my point, thank you Joseph.


Good idea with the Stamina.  Heck, it even adds value to Stamina, actually giving people a reason to not automatically max their Dex.  


Party.  Bonus.


Im not having luck expanding on this at the moment...  But I think one way that could distinguish Brawl apart - and still sticking with the theme of broad cross-ability augmentation - would be to allow a means to get rid of ping, or otherwise enhance the existing use of soak.  I don't know if I agree with dis-allowing parries, I'd vote just to not make charms that deal with them.


I'ma have to stew on this because my creativity comes in rare, fleeting, but intensely rewarding flashes.  Not unlike boob shots in an R movie.

 

[Joseph]

I don't know if I agree with dis-allowing parries, I'd vote just to not make charms that deal with them.

I don't understand why Charms shouldn't be able to create blocks if the basic Ability can.  I can't think of any other situation in the entire game where an Ability on its own can create an effect that a Charm of that Ability can't create equally well or better.


I'm all for Brawl being distinct, it should just be distinct mundanely as well.

 

[MOK]

my train of thought was that if a different die mechanic or technique was used as the main defense for Brawl, then basically the tree's attention would be directed elsewhere.

 

[MOK]

Oh man, when you're just not feelin the creative juices, you know what you gotsa  do?


Plagarize!  Its the best thing ever!


Heh, I enlisted the assistance of my trusty roomate.  I squeezed him for ideas with the preceding criteria, and made my own twist on the result too, but basically he just reminded me to look at Pasiap Still Stands.


okay so check this out -


For some motes, and a willpower, you activate a scene long charm.


This charm allows you for the rest of the scene to reflexively purchase lethal soak equal to your stamina ability, or something.  This soak goes above and beyond any other soak totals.  And these purchased levels of soak can get rid of ping.


This way, you have a reliable defense, especially if youve jacked up your soak.  It WILL stop a hit...  But since soak can concievably go so damn high, if it were TRULY persistant you'd be unstoppable.  Instead, you need to purchase that soak each time you use it.  It's truly 100% dependable insurance, unless you've got aggravated damage coming at you...  


Dependable until your motes run out.  Thus still very compelling reason to parry or dodge.


The numbers will need tweaking and balancing, but I think it fits the criteria.  


Thoughts?


MOK

 

[Andrew02]

So, basically, it's like a scene long Iron Kettle Body, only you need to pay for it every time you use it, but it only counts as a charm use the first time you activate it?

 

[MOK]

But it soaks ping, yes.


Keep in mind, the specifics are not important.  The point was to have strong potential to reliably, completely, and safely soak an attack.  Much like FLB or FFBS accomplishes.  For a while.  While allowing you to do other things.


*edit, though it strikes me that it should be tuned to have some limitation on the potential, as this can be used with Dodge and Parry.

 

[Andrew02]

Hardness, then. You're striving for a high level of hardness, granted by the Brawl ability, greater than any currently provided by Resistance or defensive Sorcery, in a format that is inferior to the Dodge and Melee persistant defenses.


Quite honestly, I am failing to see how this makes Brawl more potent in all but the most general sense of adding something it did not possess previously.

 

[MOK]

The way this benefits Brawl is that you can control it.


Hardness is static, low, and unreliable.  You can get over hardness easily, even when its very high. And on the side, charms and sorcery have demonstrated that a high hardness is NOT something they want you to have easily.  Anyways, Solar Charms would be hard pressed to surpass even terrestrial sorcery.


Hardness is contested with Raw Damage.  Raw Damage = Successes+Str+Weapon.  This is easily made to be a significant number.  It will beat hardness without much luck, unaugmented even.


This allows you to pump up your defense at will.  Like Reed in the Wind combined with FLB.  If you need to dodge something, using RitW will pretty much see to it that you damn well dodge it.  You just have to spend for it.


Plus, this gets rid of damage just like that.  You dont want to take damage from that hit?  You just don't.  You don't even need to use a charm activation.  This could be seen as superior by some.  


And as I mentioned before, which you undoubtedly read, I would imagine this persistant *should* be weaker than dodge or melee, since it can be used while using other combat abilities, and is not a dedicated defensive tree.


Plus it would only truly shine if you took up the Resistance tree...  A nice tie in, I think.

 

[Andrew02]

I misremembered what hardness did. I believed it was contested against base damage (in which case it could easily be viable), rather than raw damage. I becomes clearer why it is such a useless statistic now. Lunars get it in abundance, however.


Hardness does not seem a statistic they want anyone to have AT ALL, as sufficiently high hardness obviates the need for active defenses.

The way this benefits Brawl is that you can control it.

In what above and beyond you can control OTHER defenses? It is not very much different from extant Resistance charms which allow you to purchase x amount for soak for y motes. It is not very different from a dice adding charm, save that soak is not rolled.

This allows you to pump up your defense at will.  Like Reed in the Wind combined with FLB.  If you need to dodge something, using RitW will pretty much see to it that you damn well dodge it.  You just have to spend for it.

The point of this comparison is lost on me, as your proposed charm requires essence expenditure as well. The fact that RitW would be your charm use can be obviated through combos. Obviating the need for combos seems like a bad thing to try and do.

Plus, this gets rid of damage just like that.  You dont want to take damage from that hit?  You just don't.

Assuming you have the essence to spend to purchase sufficient soak, and the limit you suggested be placed upon it was sufficient to completely reduce damage to 0. This charm is just going to get expensive really fast. More expensive than using PC ISC, I would wager.

And as I mentioned before, which you undoubtedly read, I would imagine this persistant *should* be weaker than dodge or melee, since it can be used while using other combat abilities, and is not a dedicated defensive tree.

I was unaware Melee and Dodge's defenses were not able to be used with other abilities. Archery alone is the only one I could see as incompatible with Melee's persistant, but not with Dodge's. MA weapons may be used with Melee, so there is your FFBS compatibility, and no reason it wouldn't work with FLB (the Immaculate styles have within them several charms that benefit Dodge). Brawling aids can be used with Melee as well, if you want to go there. Thrown weapons have Melee statistics.


I'm failing to see the potency added to Brawl.

Plus it would only truly shine if you took up the Resistance tree...  A nice tie in, I think.

Since you are purchasing Soak, it seems very much like it is something that simply should be a Resistance charm.

 

[MOK]

Oh, I think I nailed down the difference in our view.


I'm thinking about this in purely Power Combat terms.  In classic system, I would agree with you.  However, I would love to have such an ability in Power Combat.

In what above and beyond you can control OTHER defenses? It is not very much different from extant Resistance charms which allow you to purchase x amount for soak for y motes. It is not very different from a dice adding charm, save that soak is not rolled.

You can control your soak as an active defense is what I meant.  You don't just let it sit there and wait to see if you have enough.  If you don't have enough, then you have it on the fly with the expendature of essence without using a charm activation.  No essence ping.  This is also the same point in our next point of disagreement -

The point of this comparison is lost on me, as your proposed charm requires essence expenditure as well. The fact that RitW would be your charm use can be obviated through combos. Obviating the need for combos seems like a bad thing to try and do.

The point of this comparison is thus:  You claim that the effect I'm pursuing can be achieved with combo's.  Yet Dodge or Melee do not have to even use a combo.  Once the persistant is up, they simply use a die adder.  This charm accomplishes that same objective in a slightly sideways manner.  A brawler should not have to use a combo to achieve a roughly equivalent benefit that a mere die adder would.

Assuming you have the essence to spend to purchase sufficient soak, and the limit you suggested be placed upon it was sufficient to completely reduce damage to 0. This charm is just going to get expensive really fast. More expensive than using PC ISC, I would wager.

Yes, more expensive.  Heres why -


A resistance/soak monster solar can get 15 lethal soak naked in 2 rounds spending 7m, 1w.  No armor, no magic,  no artifacts,  just his skivvies.  This turns aside mortal weapons while he takes a nap, and scratches himself.  When the Dynasts come around, they start laying on Essence ping at best.  Anything else isnt worth the effort.  Whatever the attack, with Iron Skin Concentration and this charm, he'll drop 3 motes and then the new charms cost.  Say 3 motes for a ballpark figure, giving perhaps a 5 ping soak for this optimized character's case.  A total of 6 motes ensuring soak that does away with ping damage, which is essentially a semi-perfect, ala Seven Shadow Evasion, in any practical or normal Dragon Blood attack.  Sometimes he wont even need ISC, spending just 3 motes and taking it.  In the meantime, hes laying waste to that itch on his ass.  Boy is he itching it.  The jade daiklaves brushing against him kinda help too.


If this did not cost motes per use, he would be unstoppable.  Hes not even wearing armor.  As long as he has essence, he will not take any damage unless he is hit with Aggravated damage.  Which is when he uses Adamant Skin.  If he has either FFBS or FLB, its just 3 motes a turn to turn aside basically everything that barely eeks through.  And if he has both?  Fuck.  


Yeah, this charm should cost.

I was unaware Melee and Dodge's defenses were not able to be used with other abilities.

It should be apparent that I know what these two charms do.  Please do not pretend I don't know by allowing yourself to misunderstand.


The point is that this stacks along with our two workhorse favorites.  Theres no circumstance where this isn't applicable, like dodge or parry.  Keep in mind as well that, unlike dodge or parry, this isnt comparing dice ammounts, this takes away from their end result.  It is assured, and reliably gets rid of damage, no element of luck comes in to play.  


Even in the final stage of a combat action when it matters the most, no less.

Since you are purchasing Soak, it seems very much like it is something that simply should be a Resistance charm.

It very well might be.  And depending on peoples opinions, we'll want to change it to fit Brawl, if thats the case and if this is the kind of effect we're looking for.  


However, Power Combat changed the nature of soak in such a way that it was now meant only for insurance rather than a bankable defense.  Perhaps this was done because it was too easy, they didnt think it was thematic, didnt care, whatever.  This allows characters who are trained in more rugged fighting - Brawlers - to be able to more effectively utilize soak than others.  To me this makes sense.


I feel that with this charm, a player could decide to take Brawl and Dodge, and have a chance against an equivalent Melee/Dodge.  Of course, it still needs tuning.  Hell, it needs a rough draft first.


MOK

 

[MOK]

Alright.  Since I killed the discussion, I need to either grant the problem some closure, or reignite the thing.  I haven't heard much dissent yet on the last idea, so here it is formally proposed:


Invincible Supple Body Attitude


    Cost: 3 motes, 1 willpower


    Duration: Scene


    Type: Reflexive


    Minimum Brawl: 5


    Minimum Resistance:  5


    Minimum Essence: 3


    Prerequisite Charms: 2 undetermined brawl charms, Iron Kettle Body


An adaptable fighter knows that some of the best opportunities come after allowing your opponent to follow through completely with their attacks.  By saturating the flesh and bones of his body with the powerful essence of this charm, the fighter may enable himself to take blows that would easily kill even another Exalt.  So long as the fighter knows to move with the blows, his normally fragile flesh will follow, flexing with the impact.


This charm may be activated at any time for a committed cost of 3 motes and one temporary willpower.  While active, the player may choose to use this charm's effects when damage is successfully rolled against him.  By reflexively spending 3 additional motes, the character may subtract his Stamina rating in successes from any single hand to hand or ranged attack's damage roll that he is aware of.  The use of this charm's effects only count as the use of a charm upon it's innitial activation.

 

[uteck]

From your description, it would seem like there should be a counter-attack or bonus dice for your next attack involved.  But the cost in not high enough for that.  Also, how would this work with the resistance Charms?  Also, are not most scene length Charms simple, not reflexive?  


The advantage MA has is that it can use weapons and fists.  Brawl can use clinches and binds, so I think that difference needs to be player up.  Dodge and Parry don't do dick when in a full-nelson.


What about something more Judo-like?  A Scene length Charm that allows you to use Strength + Brawl to deflect incoming blows, even weapons.  (The defender steps inside the fist or weapons ark and impacts the shaft or arm altering the its course).  Then it could have other Charms built on it incorporating Judo manuvours like reflexively clinching an attacker, redirecting their attack into someone else, and throws.  Can you say D-B bowling?

 

[MOK]

Huh?  I had to read your post a few times to 'get it'.


This charm represents "taking it".  The flavor text, which reads that it allows an opening, represents that you can potentially 'absorb' an attack, rather than having to abort out to defense.  Thats the opportunity you gain, if its the flavor text youre talking about.


Otherwise, this charm is completely defensive, and massively powerful.  It negates ping damage.  If you have a high soak, you can be an absolute juggernaut.  An offensive component involved would not be balanced.  Did you read through the entire thread or did you pick up from the end?


Many scene lengths are simple, yes.  However, if FFBS is not.  And many argue that FLB should not be, since FFBS isn't.  This charm is meant to be their peer as a main persistant defense, allowing Brawl viability as a sole close combat ability selection.  Since the point of the Brawl tree, as I read it, represents potent response, easy applicability,  adaptation, and otherwise 'going with the flow,' so to speak, I think it would have less 'power-up' charms needed.  To me this also seems to fit with "Screw disciple, screw plannin, screw weapons.  I'm clobberin' you NOW!"


And as it is, the resistance tree require enough simple charms.  Heck if you have a generous 2 rounds to put up your defenses, FFBS or FLB would probably come before this one.


While yes, a clinch can totally negate the defenses of a melee or dodger, thats one slim lynch-pin to hang your entire combat strategies from.  And due to that, I'd never take only Brawl as my combat ability.  I'd guess that a lot of people would think the same thing too.


Concerning your Judo maneuvers suggested, yeah those could work as a good prereq to this charm, potentially.  However, the purpose of this charm was to represent the brawler's more durable nature compared to the martial artist or sword fighter.  And it was also assumed that something akin to a persistant parry would be out of theme for Brawl.  This was also mentioned earlier on.


Alright, you definately didn't read through this thread, dangit!

 

[MOK]

So, Judo's not a martial art?  Please excuse my lack of RL experience with MA & Brawl, I'm a lover not a fighter.

 

[uteck]

So, Judo's not a martial art?  Please excuse my lack of RL experience with MA & Brawl, I'm a lover not a fighter.

 I wrote Judo, but ment Judo-like.  More like the Ultimate Fighting show, where it does not matter what the martial art used is.  The fight is determined by whoever grabs the other and can pound the shit out of them.  No finese, no real stratigie, just bind a limb or two and pound till they submit.

 

[Andrew02]

You're back to the Abyssal dice subtracting, huh?


Anyhow, 'taking it' is just as viable a martial arts thing. Jade Mountain Style.