Solar Brawl - more potent than before, but potent enough?

[MOK]

In light of the C o t I book being released, we've now got a few more printed Brawl charms that push up into Essence 4.  They give means of adding dice, which brawl previously lacked, weakening the tree for obvious reasons.  They also added a means of earning back willpower, which was important due to the reliance on combos that Brawl has.  These aside, a few more neat tricks like success adders and a die roll substitutor/insurance(neat mechanical concept) allow for a much broader box of tools, and some extra viability to an otherwise neglected tree.  I, for one, am ecstatic.


But still, it's nowhere near the equivalent to the other abilities in my perception of the tree.  It's offensive capabilities, while more potent now, are still not so strong as any but Martial Arts.  Even this is spotty, as Martial Arts is fairly hit and miss given it's variability.  It's defensive capabilities remain non-existant as well.  While it can parry, and even has a charm granting the ability to parry lethal, it does not have anything which would augment a single defensive attempt, nor the ability to cope with defense in any other way.  Except perhaps holding a hapless Terrestrial hostage as a meatshield, maybe...


What the tree does have going for itself is it's wide applicability with Melee and Martial Arts, particularly with stacked effects or combos.  Since it has a few charms which can be used regardless of wether your rolls are Brawl or not, it opens up options and fallbacks perhaps better than Martial Arts.  It appears to be made as a universal close combat augment, to be sure.


But now on to my question:  


Is it appropriate to have charms which augment defenses in some way in this tree?  Are Solars meant to take Brawl as their primary combat ability?  The way the tree is currently laid out, if custom charms did not exist, the answer could very well be no.  In contrast though, you've got story characters like Herecles running around our ancient world, causing their crazy brand of meyhem.  HE didn't need no stinking sword!  Years of training be damned, he broke shit good!  I'm fairly sure that characters like him were kept explicitly in mind while making this game.  Right?


So with this close combat ability negating the option of a potent parry to stack onto your defenses, you have to fall back on your other bag of tricks to get the job done.  Which is in theory fine, since Brawl, like Martial Arts, is all about it's bag of tricks.  But I don't think the bag of tricks available actually does enough to make up for this loss.  


Oh.  I'm supposed to lead up to somthing, aren't I?


Fine, fine.  How are we supposed to model our custom charm defenses for this tree?  Is it supposed to meet the potency of Melee?  My guess is no..  I feel that making a Fivefold Bulwark Stance for Brawl would be fairly out of theme for the tree.  But I think it needs Something...


ANYTHING.


What can you guys think of as die mechanics, or other tricks to fill this defensive hole?  If, indeed, it's even meant to be filled...


There you have it.  I want to see your defensive Brawl Charms.


Man, I coulda made this post alot shorter, couldn't I?  


Damn I'll bet no ones gonna respond.


I suck.


One I thought of was this one;


Fivefold Adaption Trance


       Cost: 6 motes


       Duration: Scene


       Type: Reflexive


       Minimum Brawl: 5


       Minimum Essence: 3


       Prerequisite Charms: Inevitable Victory Meditation


       Akin to the trance-like state achieved with Inevitable Victory Meditation, with this charm, an exalt may tap his senses into the essence of all beings around him.  At the very moment of action from his opponents, the Exalts instincts guide his reactions into the most favorable response possible, spoiling the potency of his opponent's strike.


       Until the end of the scene, subtract the Exalt's Brawl score in dice from any attack rolls against the Exalt that he is aware of.  This penalty may not reduce any die pools below one.

 

[Joseph]

Solars should not steal the Abyssal dice-removing theme.  Solars have a very few Charms where it makes sense (though I'd still prefer those Charms worked through difficulty penalites), and they should pretty much remain with those.


Just use a different mechanism.

 

[MOK]

Good point.  Hadn't thought of that.


The point of a Brawl persistant, as I would imagine it, would be a widely applicable(ie, stacking or something equivalent in value), but weaker, form of defense.  You're correct that die subtraction is a main point of Abyssals, and though it's not necessarilly reserved, I'd like to avoid it too.


It's possible to try out Essence in difficulty to hit, but theres aspects about that which don't seem right to me.  One of the main issues being that theres already some of those running around now, and having them stack seems like it could potentially contributie to a problem.  


Imagine, for instance, Terrifying Apparition of Glory and this charm combined at essence 4.  That makes a difficulty of 8, which will require an avarage 16 dice for 50/50 chance to get a single success.  The character could potentially be a parry/dodge master, which would make any attack against him pretty much impossible unless you threw out over 42 dice on your normal attacks.  And thats just stupid.


This feels like a problem..  What die mechanisms can all of you think of that could avoid this pit?  I can't think of much at the moment.

 

[Joseph]

The writers seem to want Brawl to be used with effects that let you soak up the damage, rather than avoid it.  Why not, then, have a Brawl persistent defense that reduces the health level damage you take from each strike?  Rather than avoid it, you just tough it out.  


This would give Brawl some Charm overlap with resistance, so it's important to distinguish the two.  Resistance tends to increase soak or hardness, so Brawl should do something else, like subtract from the health levels you've suffered after the attack occurs, or give you more temporary health levels that can be bought in advance and burned without consequence.

 

[MOK]

Huh, also a good point.  I'd forgotten about it's ties to resistance and endurance too.  I'll have to think about that.


Again, though, I invite anyone with more ideas to post em.  Ideas would be important for Brawl, since their charms are comparatively outside-of-the-box, in thematics.

 

[memesis]

This would give Brawl some Charm overlap with resistance, so it's important to distinguish the two.  Resistance tends to increase soak or hardness, so Brawl should do something else, like subtract from the health levels you've suffered after the attack occurs, or give you more temporary health levels that can be bought in advance and burned without consequence.

Fortitude of the Fist (Scene-long, season to taste)


Through intense concentration and the strengthening of her skin through regular training and boxing practice, the Solar has learned to toughen herself against injury.  She may reduce the number of damage dice rolled against her by one.  In Power Combat, she reduces the number of damage dice by half her permanent Essence, rounded down.


Raging Auroch's Invulnerability (Scene-long, ditto)


The Solar taps her inner strength and launches into a berzerk fury of flying fists and vicious kicks, using the power of her aggression to ignore injury.  The Solar gains temporary -0 Health Levels equal to her permanent Willpower.  So long as she continues to engage in some sort of attack in combat, she may use these temporary Health Levels to soak up damage, and damage taken is recorded on these Health Levels in preference to her normal wound track.  If the Solar fails to perform an attack for three consecutive rounds in combat, or when the Charm ends at the end of the Scene, any wounds taken shift onto her normal wound track as bashing damage (if they were lethal or bashing wounds) or as aggravated damage (if they were originally aggravated).  This Charm does not permit a Solar to transfer previously-sustained damage to her temporary Health Levels, and she will always have a wound penalty based on the worst wounds she has taken.  For the purposes of this Charm, "an attack" is any dice roll the Solar makes that constitutes an attack - it need not be an action, but may be a reflexive counterattack or something similar.  Finally, the Solar's attacks need not hit their target to count for this Charm's purposes.

 

[MOK]

I like the idea of the second one you've got there, Memesis.  Though, I'd tend to think that this charm shouldn't shunt the health levels back on to you when the scene ends - I think they oughta go away.  Or maybe I'm thinking of something better that this charm would be a speedbump for...  Either way, granting the temporary health levels equal to your willpower is a nice one.


Though, this does seem to be a pretty touchy line which exists between Brawl, and Resistance/Endurance.  For example, reducing health levels in the fashion that the first charm accomplishes - that feels like a pure resistance charm to me.


Also, something else occurred to me.  While Brawl seems to have a strong tie to Endurance/Resistance, it does not preclude avoidance.  One of the C o t I charms, for instance, give you candy or something when you successfully avoid a hit.  So we could conceivable find viable persistants in all four categories of defense - Dodge, Parry, Resistance, Endurance.

 

[Andrew02]

Solars should not steal the Abyssal dice-removing theme.  Solars have a very few Charms where it makes sense (though I'd still prefer those Charms worked through difficulty penalites), and they should pretty much remain with those.
Just use a different mechanism.

Adding difficulty would have pretty much the same effect, and get around the infringement upon Abyssal dice-removing charms, wouldn't it?

So we could conceivable find viable persistants in all four categories of defense - Dodge, Parry, Resistance, Endurance.

Personally, I'd favour more a little bit of parrying (specifically, parries that hurt the attacker without being outright counterattacks), some resistance/endurance, but mostly a focus on hitting power.


I also like Raging Auroch's Invulnerability, and I am kinda with MOK. Though, if it had to shunt health levels back, it should only shunt back damage in excess of the temporary health levels.

 

[Joseph]

Adding difficulty would have pretty much the same effect, and get around the infringement upon Abyssal dice-removing charms, wouldn't it?

Yes, but it's also not very Brawlish.  Brawl seems to be more about attacking while sucking up the hits, rather than being harder to hit.  


I don't know WHY that is the case, but it seems to be the desire.  Frankly I think armed and unarmed combat should be identical in every way, except armed combat gets weapon benefits, and unarmed combat gets the benefits of clinches (which is huge).

I also like Raging Auroch's Invulnerability, and I am kinda with MOK. Though, if it had to shunt health levels back, it should only shunt back damage in excess of the temporary health levels.

I'm not sure what MOKs opinion on that Charm was at the moment, but I remember thinking that it shouldn't give -0 health levels, but rather additional health levels at whatever your current wound penalty was, much like the old Gurahl Rage power in Werewolf: the Apocalypse.

 

[memesis]

The wording for RAI is a little confusing - if you're already at -2, having extra -0 HLs don't stop you from taking the -2 penalty.  That needs to be cleared up; the net effect would probably be closer to what Joseph had in mind.  On the other hand, I like the idea of a berzerk brawler gaining a "second wind" and suddenly overcoming his penalties for awhile - only to keel over unconscious at the end of the fight.  To the extent that you disagree with this vision, tweak to your heart's content.


On second thought... that's pretty much what the berzerker Charms in Endurance do.  Best to make this more of an extra health-level supply, with appropriate penalties, and let those Charms do the heavy lifting for penalty neutralization and combat bonuses.

 

[MOK]

The brawl tree does have some emphasis on taking it, but I think theres enough strands of avoidance dangling throughout that a persistant avoider would still fit in.  And anyways, it simply makes sense to avoid a hit than to take it when it's an equivalent option...


Alright, heres a revision then, and it might be kinda weird, so please put it through your collective thresher if you would:


Fivefold Adaption Trance


      Cost: 6 motes


      Duration: Scene


      Type: Reflexive


      Minimum Brawl: 5


      Minimum Essence: 3


      Prerequisite Charms: Inevitable Victory Meditation


      Until the end of the scene, add the character's Brawl score in dice to either a dodge or a parry roll against any hand to hand attack on the Exalt that he is aware of.  The dice gained can only be used once per attack, meaning that the bonus cannot apply to both dodge AND parry against the same attack.


So, its kinda reversed.  Its certainly more Solar, in mechanics.

 

[Andrew02]

 And anyways, it simply makes sense to avoid a hit than to take it when it's an equivalent option...

Making sense is more of an MA thing. Brawling seems more like you'd just take the hits in order to exploit that opening you wouldn't be able to hit if you'd defended instead. I think TSJ mentioned once that he'd sparred with boxers who would allow certain attacks to strike them in order to get their own attacks in.

 

[Haku1]

Which might be incentive to get up the resistence charm tree.

 

[Relic]

I think TSJ mentioned once that he'd sparred with boxers who would allow certain attacks to strike them in order to get their own attacks in.

I haven't sparred with boxers but I can guarantee you that taking a punch in the ribs in order to give one on the nose is a good trade. :-)

 

[Joseph]

I haven't sparred with boxers but I can guarantee you that taking a punch in the ribs in order to give one on the nose is a good trade. :-)

And it's an even better trade if you're so supernaturally powerful that the punch in the ribs has zero effect.

 

[MOK]

Another valid point.  Good call Andrew.


Although, that doesn't quite help with defenses, not directly at least.  


This line between Resistance or Endurance and Brawl is really darn fickle.  


What do you guys think about this mechanic?  And if you have a better name, I'm all ears.


False Opening Attitude


For the rest of the scene, any damage roll from a hand to hand attack against the Exalt with fewer dice than his permanent essence after soak is applied is ignored.


So, you guys think this would fit Brawl, or Resistance?  Endurance?


This one would be a doozy of an expense, allowing you to pretty much ignore ping.  Even in power combat.  It's like an extra line of defense past hardness...  Something seems to nag me in the back of my mind though, as if im missing some part of this mechanic that throws shit all outa whack...


Well, whatever.

 

[Haku1]

MOK, that charm is VERY potent when combined with resistence charms, as you can easily get 15L/15B soak for the scene with 3 turns to prep.

 

[Joseph]

MOK, that charm is VERY potent when combined with resistence charms, as you can easily get 15L/15B soak for the scene with 3 turns to prep.

Lunars can get 12L/12B soak for the scene with 1 prep turn using Deadly Beastman Transformation.  Surely solars commiting to three preparation turns should be entitled to at least a few more points of soak.

 

[Andrew02]

Given that MA goes off and has little one night stands with every ability, I don't think it would be that bad if Brawl were to toe the line heavily with only two abilities. As long as you're not making a Brawl version of Adamant Skin Concentration, it'd probably be fine.


A good kind of Brawling defense would probably be something that let you use whoever you had in a clinch as either a shield or as a "weapon" for the purposes of blocking. Depending on how strong you wanted it to be, the incoming strike might have to kill the person you're clinching in order to harm you. I think I've seen other reflexive defenses that allow you to grab pieces of scenery and have them take the hit in place of your Brawler (kind of like a perfect Safety Among Enemies, only for Brawl).


Another thing I've seen that I've always liked is when the super-hard guy glares at the good guy, and the good guy throws a punch only to injure his own hand. A scene long defense where any successful unarmed attack does the Brawler's Essence in Bashing dice to the attacker might work.

 

[MOK]

Theres LOTS of fun possibilities with Brawl...  Counterattacks, debilitating attacks, abilities that allow you completely control combat...  But the problem at hand is persistant defenses.  Thats the big problem, and the topic here.


That ping ignorance mechanic I mentioned above is potent, no doubt, but given the way power combat works, this brings alot viability back to the Soak tree.  Not for everyone, though.  It doesn't simply strain against PC's changes, it keeps the PC dynamics, but changes soak's effectiveness.  But just for Brawlers, and brawlers only.  For everyone else,  soak is merely insurance.  But Brawlers would  be able to actually bank on soak a bit more as a very real defense.  It could be a dependable defense.


Something about that strikes me as ... right.


The more I think about it, the more I like this dynamic.

 

[Andrew02]

If you've clinched someone in superheavy plate, it's going to be hard to kill him with clinch damage, but with Dragon Coil Technique you'd have a fairly good chance of keeping them locked in, and if you had a charm that was reflexive or lasted as long as the clinch did, letting you use them as a shield is a pretty decent persistant defense that is a little better than the vanilla, "you get a free parry/dodge against every attack." Maybe not much, but it's a little better and plays more into something that makes clinching a Brawl strength.


It's not as firmly persistant as Melee or Dodge, but it's still viable.

 

[Persell]

False Opening Attitude


For the rest of the scene, any damage roll from a hand to hand attack against the Exalt with fewer dice than his permanent essence after soak is applied is ignored.


So, you guys think this would fit Brawl, or Resistance?  Endurance?


This one would be a doozy of an expense, allowing you to pretty much ignore ping.  Even in power combat.  It's like an extra line of defense past hardness...  Something seems to nag me in the back of my mind though, as if im missing some part of this mechanic that throws shit all outa whack...


Well, whatever.

this scene length coupled with Iron Skin Concentration under power combat.

 

[uteck]

Reading through this thread gave me an idea.  Thinking back to some of the 'bad-boy' movies, the brawlers used debilitating counterattacks to weaken their opponents.  Tacktics like; punching their fist when when they are punching at you, lowering your head so they punch the top of your head and not your face, and meeting their flying kick with with a punch to the foot are a few of the tactic's they use.


Or am I missing the obvious that there are all ready Brawl counterattck Charms that do this?  I could post this after I go home and look, but I will forget.

 

[memesis]

Reading through this thread gave me an idea.  Thinking back to some of the 'bad-boy' movies, the brawlers used debilitating counterattacks to weaken their opponents.  Tacktics like; punching their fist when when they are punching at you, lowering your head so they punch the top of your head and not your face, and meeting their flying kick with with a punch to the foot are a few of the tactic's they use.
Or am I missing the obvious that there are all ready Brawl counterattck Charms that do this?  I could post this after I go home and look, but I will forget.

Solar Brawl has no canonical Brawl counterattacks, unless they're in a sourcebook I haven't seen yet (COTI?).  I submitted this to the Exalted wiki:


Fist Strikes Mountain Defense


 Cost: 6 motes


 Duration: Instant


 Type: Reflexive


 Minimum Brawl: 5


 Minimum Essence: 2


 Prerequisite Charms: Ox-Stunning Blow


Gathering her power, the Solar strikes an attacker's limb or weapon. She may grab a fist and crush it in her own, twist someone's arm until it snaps, squeeze the wrist of a swordsman as he extends, or punch directly at the ball of the foot as her opponent kicks. Whatever the nature of the attack, the character may roll Dexterity + Brawl as a reflexive parry against a single attack. If the character receives extra successes on the parry roll, they are used as the attack successes in a counterattack against the original attacker. The damage done by this counterattack is piercing damage, and halves armor soak. This Charm may parry attacks from, but may not be used to counterattack against, Solar Counterattack or any other counterattack Charm.

 

[Andrew02]

CotI has no counterattacks. A willpower restoring charm, a couple die adders, and an automatic success adder.