Skyrim - Legion vs Stormcloaks

[NecroKnight]

Even if the Emperor is false? Not a Septim and can't seal the Daedra gates?


Even with the off-chance of the Empire being a puppet? And maybe betraying Skyrim, like they did with Hammerfell?

 

[Moxi]

I never liked Stormcloaks. Their fanaticism doesn't appeal to me, I feel like it's a extremist organization masquerading as a revolution, whose only concern is the fabled "Nord way of life", which it's fine, but as only as it doesn't start prejudicing the other races.
But, I don't like the Thalmor as well. Their claim of superiority is so boring, it's not funny. Always make a strong point of murdering every Thalmor I can during my playthroughs. The Empire's plan of unificating the nations into one flag is the best course of action in my book; In a world where tyrant dragons, daedra princes and several other things that escape the grasp of most mundane races, conflict between Khajiit and Argonians, Dark Elves and Wood Elves(Never saying that these examples of fights actually occur, just an example ) and everything in between only help strenghtening the enemies of the Mundus.


The main problem with the two organizations are simple. One is racist against Talos, one is racist for Talos. Both are racist. But at least the Empire doesn't do that because they want to, they're doing it because they need to survive.


So yeah, that's my two bits.

Now I still do like the Imperials while I say this, their aesthetic has appealed to me greatly, I loved Cyrodiil and would truly hate for it to fall into the wrong hands(Which it kinda did) but keep in mind the the Empire has been surviving for little over 26 years after the dominion wanted Talos worship banned(Not to mention the added years being in shambles after the great war) so I do feel like they've been lying in wait for quite too long. Now I will also add that Hammerfell was already having problems with the empire since they were disappointed that humans didn't keep fighting the Great War before being sold out some time later.

 

[NecroKnight]

Now I still do like the Imperials while I say this, their aesthetic has appealed to me greatly, I loved Cyrodiil and would truly hate for it to fall into the wrong hands(Which it kinda did) but keep in mind the the Empire has been surviving for little over 26 years after the dominion wanted Talos worship banned(Not to mention the added years being in shambles after the great war) so I do feel like they've been lying in wait for quite too long. Now I will also add that Hammerfell was already having problems with the empire since they were disappointed that humans didn't keep fighting the Great War before being sold out some time later.

You can't call it the Empire persay - since the original Septim line died off. Anybody else, who isn't Akatosh-blessed aka Dragonborn, is a false ruler.


So pretty much, in terms of political - Ulfric has a right to secceed, if he is High King, which he is uniting Skyrim for...under his leadership or pro-indepence faction atleast.

 

[GenericHenchman]

Legion. No discussion.


Here's the discussion...


Legion accepts all into their ranks. They are a war machine. If ANYONE could ever defeat the Thalmor, it will be the Legion. Legion may have signed a pact with the Elves, but only as a means to regather their strength. Elves are are as arrogant as they are long-lived. Thalmor ranks will remain stagnant. The Empire only needs wait for the next generation of soldiers to come around, while the veterans lead the way. (The longer a species lives, typically the slower the rate at which the population reproduces. In any case, in this world humans are numerous and their population is ever-increasing. While elves? besides their own homelands you don't see a lot of them. But you'll likely find more humans in elven lands than vice versa.)


The Stormcloaks are short-sighted, their recruitment policies and racism means they won't quite so easily fill their ranks. The Thalmor will EASILY defeat them. There won't be a treaty, there won't be diplomacy and there certainly won't be chance for surrender. If by some miracle, the Stormcloaks defeat the Empire-they will have essentially done the Thalmor's work for them. Humans v. Humans(+other races) reduces pool of fighting men. High Elves swoop in, commit genocide. Game Over.


That being said, even if the Thalmor "win." Their reign will crumble a lot sooner than they hope. Simply because the Thalmor seem keen on killing even other Elves that aren't Altimer. They will find themselves in a "Hootoo/Tutsi" situation before long.


EDIT: Damnit, now I wanna play Skyrim again. Alternate Start, here I come!

 

[NecroKnight]

Then why, persay - do the Thalmor ambassador himself write.


Stormcloak victory is bad. Not a similar thought about the Empire. But point written 'Stormcloak victory = bad for Thalmor'.


Explain that...

 

[GenericHenchman]

In another note, you find a text saying that the rebellion is a good thing for the Thalmor and that Ulfric is an asset.


So...*shrugs*

 

[GenericHenchman]

Besides, Legion is a better choice either way because if the Stormcloaks had their way, every other race would be subservient to the Nords. They're no different than the Aldmeri Dominion-just different colors.

 

[NecroKnight]

In another note, you find a text saying that the rebellion is a good thing for the Thalmor and that Ulfric is an asset.
So...*shrugs*

Of course it is, it was stated, the longer the civil war between the Legion and Stormcloaks happens - the more both strengths are sapped. But it clearly states, should the Stormcloaks win - then it would be bad. And that is very easily understandable, even by Thalmor standards - war saps the strength of both Skyrim (pro-Talos region) and Empire. But also, they believe, that Stormcloak victory is bad. Plot-hole one.


And where, does it state honestly - that they would enslave others? As far as I've seen, the initial hostile reaction when you join the Stormcloaks, is only that first recruitment - to know, who you are.


After that, your treated no different than the rest...

 

[GenericHenchman]

Of course it is, it was stated, the longer the civil war between the Legion and Stormcloaks happens - the more both strengths are sapped. But it clearly states, should the Stormcloaks win - then it would be bad. And that is very easily understandable, even by Thalmor standards - war saps the strength of both Skyrim (pro-Talos region) and Empire. But also, they believe, that Stormcloak victory is bad. Plot-hole one.
And where, does it state honestly - that they would enslave others? As far as I've seen, the initial hostile reaction when you join the Stormcloaks, is only that first recruitment - to know, who you are.


After that, your treated no different than the rest...

I'll try to address the points individually. Good points, by the way. Here goes.


-Stormcloak victory a bad thing.


Decisive Stormcloak victory a bad thing for Thalmor presence in that area. A brutal and drawn out conflict is a good thing as it will be costly on both sides. If Nords unite, kick out the Empire then Thalmor will have trouble in dealing with them. This however, may not be the case further down the road. Wouldn't say it's a plot-hole but more of what degree of victory/defeat means to all sides involved.


-On Nord initial hostility (assuming PC is other race.)


You as the player are met with hostility, but it is overcome. You the player, are exceptional-in so many ways. They would be idiots to not accept you and treat you well because you're the exception. They don't want exceptional people fighting for their enemies. In fact, taking an exceptional non-Nord to your side can serve a way of further enforcing dominance on other races. Under Nord rule, other races will have a VERY hard time. Sure, look there's this non-Nord who they see as a hero but it only reinforces things. If only these other races can be just like this anomoly, we'd respect them. But most people are average and simply can't. Remember, we need farmers. If everyone is a dragonslayer? Who the f*ck is gonna cook the damn meat? When you have a glass ceiling, you let a few get through it-but only under incredible circumstances. That way you can tell people they "could" potentially aspire to greater. You don't get equal rights because you're just not trying hard enough. This make sense?


-On Nord notions of superiority.


Nords in a victory scenario (especially if ruled under Ulfric or anyone like him) would certainly see no problem in maintaining the status quo. That is, that all other races are inferior. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" is the chant. If the Empire comes crashing down, but the Thalmor lose; how long will it be until we start hearing "Cyrodil belongs to the Nords!" After all, they did the work. The other races were just too weak. Nord lands don't treat other races too well. Sure you have traders, but most Nords would probably buy from another Nord. Most Nords would buy their steel from another Nord because We're Nords, and only Nord-made steel is any good! This would put any non-Nord tradesman in a tough spot. Leadership positions? Forget it. The Dunmer slums of Windhelm are a good picture of what life will really be like under Nord rule. Perhaps not outright genocide like the Dominion, but more neglect and inequity.


That's all I got.


-

 

[NecroKnight]

I'll try to address the points individually. Good points, by the way. Here goes.
-Stormcloak victory a bad thing.


Decisive Stormcloak victory a bad thing for Thalmor presence in that area. A brutal and drawn out conflict is a good thing as it will be costly on both sides. If Nords unite, kick out the Empire then Thalmor will have trouble in dealing with them. This however, may not be the case further down the road. Wouldn't say it's a plot-hole but more of what degree of victory/defeat means to all sides involved.


-On Nord initial hostility (assuming PC is other race.)


You as the player are met with hostility, but it is overcome. You the player, are exceptional-in so many ways. They would be idiots to not accept you and treat you well because you're the exception. They don't want exceptional people fighting for their enemies. In fact, taking an exceptional non-Nord to your side can serve a way of further enforcing dominance on other races. Under Nord rule, other races will have a VERY hard time. Sure, look there's this non-Nord who they see as a hero but it only reinforces things. If only these other races can be just like this anomoly, we'd respect them. But most people are average and simply can't. Remember, we need farmers. If everyone is a dragonslayer? Who the f*ck is gonna cook the damn meat? When you have a glass ceiling, you let a few get through it-but only under incredible circumstances. That way you can tell people they "could" potentially aspire to greater. You don't get equal rights because you're just not trying hard enough. This make sense?


-On Nord notions of superiority.


Nords in a victory scenario (especially if ruled under Ulfric or anyone like him) would certainly see no problem in maintaining the status quo. That is, that all other races are inferior. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" is the chant. If the Empire comes crashing down, but the Thalmor lose; how long will it be until we start hearing "Cyrodil belongs to the Nords!" After all, they did the work. The other races were just too weak. Nord lands don't treat other races too well. Sure you have traders, but most Nords would probably buy from another Nord. Most Nords would buy their steel from another Nord because We're Nords, and only Nord-made steel is any good! This would put any non-Nord tradesman in a tough spot. Leadership positions? Forget it. The Dunmer slums of Windhelm are a good picture of what life will really be like under Nord rule. Perhaps not outright genocide like the Dominion, but more neglect and inequity.


That's all I got.


-

Skyrim' victory


The Empire lost to the Thalmor, when they had Highrock, Cyrodill, Skyrim and Hammerfell under them. And yet the lost the Imperial City - had peace-talks with Thalmor to get peace on Imperial Lands. And sold out Hammerfell, and they ended up kicking the Thalmor out themselves - where the Empire couldn't.


That proves, that despite their 'strenght', the Empire isn't invincible or the 'best choice.


Nord hostility


This is the biggest, wheel that people are against the Stormcloaks, cause of racism. How many Nords are racist? That are outside the Stormcloak army. Keep in mind, they are the armed forces - likely some small part of the Nords. Not the people in general, you have several non-Nords going about their business, with not a flick of insults thrown about.


We have Ulfreth War-Bear, buying stuff from Khajiit merchants - if we lost our favorite blacksmith in Whiterun. The regular Nord, won't care much - neither will the regular, as long as live continues, everything is good. Who cares, who rules.


I gave an explanation, on before - why the Stormcloaks might be racist-toned. Likely, that they are those, who were recruited based upon that ideal. How else, are you going to get an army together - quickly and who is loyal? Appeal to their racial or national-pride - you'd get many troops quickly - albeit, yes, it was admitted. They might not be the best mannered.


Ulfric himself spouts the True Nord stuff - but never has he stated, the rest, will get kicked out. I feel, its rather - to keep, his current men fighting. How else, would he have gained an army to match the Legion? And after needing to recover - is he really, going to kick out, anybody whom might contribute to the recovery of Skyrim.


There are even random events, of non-Nords wanting to join the Stormcloaks. And NPC's talking about 'stop moping and showing the Nords, they can get stuff done too'.


Nord superiority


Ah...the great ol' Windhelm, Dunmer slums. Ironic would be, if you visited one, they look almost similar to the other places of Windhelm. And why is such a crapsack? It was stated in one book Scourge of the Gray Quarter - it had been the Dunmer lazyness itself, which made the the Snow Quarters into the Gray Quarters...


And all of that, likely has happened before Ulfric took rulership. It was likely his father, who gave the Dunmer the quarters. Ulfric has a war to focus on, and stated at the beginning - that could the elves quiet down, so he could focus on the war. He inherited the problem of the Gray Quarters - Ulfric didn't create it, and he hasn't had the time to focus on it much - or the time to fix it.

 

[An Unknown Person]

Empire, because the Stormcloaks will become a mostly a "stranded" force when they "take" Skyrim, also, the Stormcloaks could be in quite the trouble if the Dominion attacked with the nearby Empire "areas" support...


Why do I always side with them?... I'm always a High Elf, Wood Elf, Khajiit or Argonian

 

[NecroKnight]

I'd doubt the Empire doing that. If they did, then its goodbye to any common decency and self-rulership or dignity.

 

[Clairvoyance]

This is late, but I think they're both gray. Stormcloaks are little worse though, in my opinion, than the Empire. Ulfric's supposed good intentions for Skyrim are all well and good, but he himself is a power-hungry scoundrel. (That's my favorite word in the universe, hehe.) The only way to be at peace, and eventually take Tamriel back from the Aldmeri Dominion, is through the White Gold Concordat.


But, I haven't played Skyrim in forever, so this really doesn't count since I forgot half the game!

 

[Deadkool]

It's really a matter of Safety v. Liberty. It's the difference between laying down your arms (and gold) so you can get protection from the empire (we saw in Hammerfell's case how well that went). The other option is push back the foreigners, create some instability for a time along with extending some prejudices a bit longer. This situation isn't radically different from the American Revolution with one key difference.


The US wasn't fighting a large scale conflict for another 30 years. In the case of The Thalmor, Skyrim likely wouldn't be so lucky. But there is one advantage going for Free Skyrim. Given the choice between fighting Skyrim, The Thalmor, or both, what do you think the Empire would choose. I'd have to guess The Thalmor. The two nations could almost certainly repel a Thalmor invasion (it'd be a bloody campaginas all hell, sure, but very possible).


Not to mention with Skyrim's relatively untapped resources (rich mines, dense forests, ample farmland) it should have no problem supporting itself economically. Nords, I think we can agree, are one of (if not the) fiercest warriors in Tamriel excluding Orcs. Seeing as Skyrim has the largest Nordish population and most of its city-states have a warrior mentality already, Skyrim is doing pretty good militarily if united under one banner.


Finally, socially. Racial prejudice against elves would likely last the longest, along with Khajit, but the aforementioned invasion would be a great step towards civil progress. As seen after World War 2 in the US, not much strengthens race relations more than fighting beside your fellow man (or in this case, cat creature). I'd say within 20 years, Skyrim would be pretty progressive.


Im interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[RooftopView97]

I feel I'm late to the discussion, but I'll say my piece. Both are gray for varied reasons. The Legion are imposing Eight gods, as Talos was just a man. They damper one religious belief, but are accepting of everyone. Ulfric on the other hand, comes off as a rascist turd to me. Hate a whole race of people, and you'll obviously condemn their culture and religion.


"To make Skryim great again, we need to build a wall. And I fully intend to make those stinking elves pay for that wall."

 

[NecroKnight]

I feel I'm late to the discussion, but I'll say my piece. Both are gray for varied reasons. The Legion are imposing Eight gods, as Talos was just a man. They damper one religious belief, but are accepting of everyone. Ulfric on the other hand, comes off as a rascist turd to me. Hate a whole race of people, and you'll obviously condemn their culture and religion.
"To make Skryim great again, we need to build a wall. And I fully intend to make those stinking elves pay for that wall."

I smell a Trump fan or hater here.


I found that the worst chances for both sides are. You support the Legion, and your giving the Thalmor more area to operate in, since they require, the Empire to provide them diplomatic immunity, else its trouble for them.


Join the Stormcloaks, and you are making the Empire weaker and dividing the humans. So, as it is - both sides are gray as heck. Both have their good and bad things.


With Legion you get an united front against the Thalmor. With Stormcloaks, you get independence and ability to choose your own path. Gray vs gray situation.

 

[RooftopView97]

Just noting the similarities between the between the two, and made a silly joke. Either way, someone loses somewhere. There's always something to divide societies, be they real or fiction. Division can, and certainly has caused numerous wars through the ages.


And as we all know, War Never Changes.


-Queue

 

[RooftopView97]

-Queue dramatic Vault music-

 

[NecroKnight]

-Queue dramatic Vault music-

Unless its against aliens.

 

[Moxi]

Well tbh I sometimes consider the Dominion made of aliens if only cause not every High-elf cares if men are the ones in control on the mainland.(And as I consider them aliens in Skyrim I openly kill them if I see them carrying something of my interest.)

 

[Kenjinx]

Well tbh I sometimes consider the Dominion made of aliens if only cause not every High-elf cares if men are the ones in control on the mainland.(And as I consider them aliens in Skyrim I openly kill them if I see them carrying something of my interest.)

high elves deserve genocide

 

[cinderfloof]

I personally don't like either one of them. They both just felt morally grimy to me. I suppose morals have no place in politics, however.


I played Skyrim years ago and don't remember all the facts, but my chracter was this Wood Elf. I figured that in role-playing terms she'd be disgusted by both Ulfric's mistreatment of her people (or what she perceived to be mistreatment) and the Legion's original attempt to behead her for just being in the general area of a Stormcloak. She thus never did anything about it and killed any soilders or thalmor she'd see out in the wilds.


Then I finished the storyline and just joined the Legion so that I could kill Ulfric and take his cool looking armor. Plus, I think I hate the legion a little bit less. I get the impression that Ulfric did this as a power grab? Skyrim had surrendered or whatever in the war and people felt a little bit grumpy about that. They weren't allowed to celebrate their religion as openly as they wanted, and that's bad. I get that. Bad Bad. But, if I remember correctly, although it was a law nobody enforced it unless you were being extremely loud and proud. Ulfric seemed to stand up and make people actually angry about it. He's either being honest or simply understanding that he can get the people on his side to aquire the throne. I feel like the second is more likely. Its what my gut says.


Well, that's all. I am extremely sleepy and rambling. I'm so bad with politics, wasn't interested and didn't read much in the game. Don't flame me too hard. I'm a fragile baby chicken.


... Swauk.

 

[norway]

I didn't really chose a side, I think in the end there I was just winging it and sided with the legion during that little vote session at the table, but I disliked both parties as neither side seemed compelling enough to sway me - cloaks seemed to have a degree of tunnel vision and were losing their humanity ironically in the act of empathizing with those they fought for - legion seemed ball-less, too comfortable and sold out - sure I could be wrong, I didn't pay that much attention to the war my first time around, but it's how I picked up the state of things as I played through. Honestly I think the Thalmor would find a way to remain the greater threat regardless of who one, I'm kind of one of those 'there's a big picture/greater puppet master' theorizers, so. As far as antagonistic threat and presence went, Thalmor won me over - honestly I would have liked to explore that route more, but admittedly I haven't had the chance to play prior games so forgive me if that's an option and I missed out, haha.

 

[Autumn McJavabean]

The intelligent spot to be in is the Empire. The issue isn't as black and white as it is made to be, rather the nuance is just not as clear. But the Stormcloaks are in the wrong. They only seek to destroy their only ally and become a small power that could be crushed because of a childish and lying leader; Ulfric.

 

[Archie]

Ulfric gives me the total creeps, like the kind of leader who manipulates and uses people then throws them out. If Dovakhiin supports him he's gonna be like "oh that dude can shout louder than me, kill him" after the war so there's no threat to his power.


Meanwhile Titus Mede actually seems like a decent guy and is a military genius (he beat the elves pretty decisively), so there's hope for the empire and by extension all humans if Ulfric doesn't screw it up. Humans aren't even that bad off, if they re-integrate Hammerfall by declaring war on the Elves (or at least ally with Hammerfall) they'll be okay.