Resolving unparriable/undodgeable Charms

[Forn Clakes]

I need help in how to resolve a little problem that may occur in a story, something that I can have an idea about just in case it would ever occur.


Say, for example, a player uses a action to attack that has been enhanced with a Charm, which is unparriable/undodgeable.  My first question is simple: do they have to annonunce that said attack is unparriable/undodgeable, so the opponent can act accordingly.  My initial thoughts were no, but since i'm unsure, i'm open to comments.


Coming off the back of this then, if they don't have to declare that the attack is unparriable/undodgeable, and the opponent declares that they are going to parry/dodge, and aren't allowed to, can they change they're action to a dodge/ parry or is the action now wasted?


I'd like to make it clear that I do understand how the useage of undodegeable/unparriable Charms versus perfect defences work, i'm just unsure about declaring and resolving the method behind player interaction.


Cheers all,


~FC.

 

[Flagg]

I guess it depends how much of a bastard you want to be. Realistically, I see no way a character could know if an incoming attack was not blockable/dodgeable, unless they've seen the attack before, or understand the magic.


Personally, unless the character had some reason to know that it's useless to defend, then their declared defense action simply fails, and it's a weasted action -- at least the first time. Smart characters should be able to catch on fairly quickly.


-S

 

[memesis]

I would announce it.


I've seen far too many martial arts movies where the combatants had intricate knowledge of what was going on - whether or not they could DO anything with that knowledge depended on how strong their kung fu was.


Chalk it up to Essence awareness, body language, or whatever.  The character seeks out the eddies of Essence in her body that would lead her to a parry, in order to activate them as a Charm, and simply finds them missing - and knows in that very instant that she needs a different strategy.  The character recognizes the pattern of Essence as one practiced by her old master, or taught to her by him.  The character begins the first fractional actions of a dodge and reads the sneering confidence in her opponent's body language, and realizes that it won't work.  Justify it however you like, and let the PC make a stunt of it if they can.


In addition, many attacks ARE clearly undodgeable or unparryable, even to the layman.  If I see a thousand golden copies of a throwing knife coming at me, from all directions and in all directions, I damn well know I'm not getting out of its way.

 

[Haku1]

No, they don't need to declare that it's undodgable/unparriable, but they -should- give fair warning.


Example, my character uses Cascade of Cutting Terror on a poor helpless DB, complete with stunt.


The DB's player says, my character always uses his shiney dodge charms, I know it's not going to work, BUT he doesn't know that. So, I'll go with an In-character response, while holding a parry available.


The dodge fails, and he goes to parry...


This is of course, if the CHARACTER doesn't know the attack can't be dodged, if he's -seen- the attack in question before, or has heard about it from survivors.... different story.


In short, characters should act with only IC knowledge. Players should give fair warning.

 

[Fruan]

I'd be tempted to give the player a Perception + Occult roll, at a difficulty of 11 - the motes spent on the charm to determine if they notice the nature of the magic being used to attack them.


While this isn't strictly in holding with the rules on page 250 of the BWB, it feels like a fitting solution.

 

[memesis]

Dramatic tradition is that the first super-attack always misses, and the attacker sneers, demonstrating his clear superiority - "I missed deliberately, to show you my power".  Then his opponent works out the type of counter that will work, and tries hard to use it.


It's hard to convince PCs of that rationale, though..

 

[Sherwood]

Mechanically, the player using the super attack should have to announce it.  It saves the ever popular, "Hey, he couldn't dodge that!  I was using my awesome Charm of Butt Kicking!"  (I hate the 'me, too!' effect that people pull).  So, the player is using a super attack.  Next question is - whom is he attacking?  A low level extra, or a powerful Lunar/Solar/DB?  The extra would not know that the attack is undodgeable and give it a try, and get smeared across three counties.  The Exalted opponents should have at least a chance to recognize the Charm in use, or perhaps have seen the PC in action and knows of this Charm in his arsenal.  If they are expecting the use of a super attack, they may have a super defense lined up and ready to go.


If you have players that thow fits if things dont go their way (and we all have had one of these) make a note before the attack that a certain action will follow: a clinch, super parry/dodge, simultanious attack, whatever.  Then you can shut the squalling off by saying, "Look, dumbass, I was expecting you to pull that.  And don't forget, this is a game and we are supposed to have fun.  So shut up!"


Finally, if the attack fits with the scene and story, the ST can change any aspect to fit with what is more fun for everyone.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Since the game design pihlosophy of Exalted favors defense over attack, it's be in keeping with that for the attacking player or GM to announce that attack as unparryable and/or undodgeable, and/or perfect before the attack is made, IF the defender is aware of the attack, or uses some means to gain a reflexive, persistent, or passive defensse.

 

[shifty]

Me I would make it an Occult+Per roll verse the the essence rating of the attack, before the attack on the part of the defender.  Add one to the difficulty if the essence being used is of a type not related to the exalt.  AFter the player passes the roll, he knows it forever, and I would announce it.


The more hard to learn, obscure stuff, the harder it is to know how to counter.


If someone has a charm that lets you actually see essence, such as Sorcerors All seeing Eye, or soemthing of that nature, then this roll is passed automatically.  OR the 2nd tier DBT perception power.  Basically anything that lets you percieve essence effects.  Even the abyssal MA form.  etc.


That is how I handle it.

 

[Fruan]

Me I would make it an Occult+Per roll verse the the essence rating of the attack, before the attack on the part of the defender.  Add one to the difficulty if the essence being used is of a type not related to the exalt.  AFter the player passes the roll, he knows it forever, and I would announce it.

There's already a canon roll for perceiving the nature of a magical effect, on page 250 of the core rules, as I mentioned earlier. Why bother to bodge together something else?


Allowing All Seeing Sorcerer's Sight and other similar effects to just automatically understand the nature of all charms used is a good idea, however.

 

[Unforgiven]

When looking at the rules, actions are wasted if it comes out it does not apply to the action. When firing a special attack, the opponent generally has no idea of it's nature, and therefore has no actual way to determine whether it would be undodgeable, unblockable or whatsoever. Unless the target has seen the charm/spell effect before, and found out firsthand.


When broken down mechanically, this is why:


1. All characters declare actions


2. All characters roll speed to determine their initiative and the order of actions.


3. First player resolves actions, defender has the option to "abort to dodge/parry"


4. Defender and attacker make their dice rolls, substracting defensive success from offensive successes.


5. Determine damage


6. Return to point 3 for 2nd attacker. (if he has any actions left)


etc..


The attacker in no way "has" to state the nature of his attack, so when the defender makes his defensive roll, and he is notified his defence is ineffective (by attacker or ST), it's already to late to abort to another form of defense, so the action is wasted. This is how it works according to the rules, although there is the exception of notifying the defending player of any combo the attacker uses. The defender will not know exactly what the combo does, but the activation of any combo is always notified to all players in the area because of the large essence build-up.


If the defender has already seen the attack, he will know what it does and thus abort to the appropriate defense before dice are rolled.


However, like the book says, if you don't like it, change it.


I recommend using a initial roll to determine the "general" effect of the attack. (just like with spells) For example, if the attacker uses a charm like Cascade of Cutting Terror, let the defender make a defensive Wits + (attacker's ability) to determine the nature and specifics of an attack. In this example, the defender rolls Wits + Thrown (with a difficulty to the essence requirement of the charm maybe?) to determine it's total effects, and gives the defender the option to abort to dodge or parry before actual rolls are made.


But like Stillborn said, if you don't use a rule like this, defenders are just screwed, as attacker never HAVE to announce the precise nature of their attacks, which indeed could result in wasted actions. (and a lot of pain for the defender.)

 

[Seiraryu]

I'd give the defender a chance by allowing him a reflexive Wits + Occult roll, at a difficulty equal to thew attacker's Essence or the Essence minimum pof the Charm being used.  One success allows the defender to know which defense won't work at all.


Note that this option should only be given to Exalted and Spirits.  God-Blooded and (Heroic) Ghosts should add 1 to the roll's difficulty and Thaumaturges should add 2.  Anyone who can't control Essence, even if it is a Heroic Mortal, should not be allowed a roll, simply because they have no way of understanding the intricate flows of Essence that they would be witnessing.


You can adjudicate this by the type of attack, too.  Cascade of Cutting Terror is obviously undodgeable, as mentioned above, so perhaps attacks that are obvious in that fashion should have a reduced difficulty (-1), and be detectable by Heroic Mortals (at standard Thaumaturge difficulty).


That's how I would do it, anyway.


Characters should never be completely aware of how an attack is unless they've seen AND are familiar with it.  Just having SEEN Cascade of Cutting Terror doesn't familiarize you to it, but if you have a Solar friend that possesses it, or you yourself do, the knowledge should be automatic.