Ideas for racing RPG dice system?

[HeyGayzelle]

So one idea I’ve been mulling over for some time now, but haven’t really developed much is a group-based RP focused on racing. While action stories and such can be RPed freeform with some degree of success, this is something where dice or some other conflict resolution mechanic is kind of necessary since there’s hardly any room to reasonably disagree on who won a race as opposed to, say, a fight.


At first I kicked around the idea of having a relatively robust system with a number of driver skills and vehicles essentially being treated as gear, but I found this idea very difficult to build on in any substantial way and I also think it could present serious balance issues. So now I think it would be better to go in the exact opposite direction and make it as straightforward and lightweight as I can, probably cutting out skills entirely, and maybe reducing vehicles to a few broad archetypes that have one or two situational advantages.


At this point, what I have in mind is more or less a blackjack-style mechanic that uses dice to provide some degree of randomization. The idea is that at various stages of the race, a section of the track is described through narration and some kind of “target number” is announced. Players then choose how many dice they want to throw with the aim of getting as close to this number as they can without going over it. From there, players receive some points based on how low the margin of difference between the target number and their roll is (those that go over would get the worst possible allotment of points that round), and this ranking is aggregated throughout the race to determine the position of the racers. I’m thinking the size of the dice could also be used to represent the level of hazard on a given track. For example, a standard racetrack may have players rolling d6s whereas an off-road course with a lot of loose dirt and gravel could have players rolling d10s since the larger dice is more “volatile” and harder to predict. Additionally, I’m thinking that racers could get some kind of resource that they could expend during a race in order to modify the value of a given roll at a 1:1 ratio. For example, a racer that rolls a 15 against a target number of 14 could expend one of these points and take the best possible outcome for that turn instead of the worst.


I initially planned to utilize some kind of initiative system to determine the order in which actions resolve, but that presents some very obvious balance issues in a game that is entirely about quick reactions. Having everyone’s actions on a given turn resolve all at once seems to alleviate these issues, but I feel like it could be troublesome with respect to being able to precisely articulate what’s going on at any given moment in the race. Resolving at the same moment could lead to issues where multiple racers are vying for the same position, but this could be used to good effect by giving the players a very brief scene where they’re locked in a dead heat and roll against each other sudden death-style, and maybe the person who wins snags an extra bonus point that pushes them into the lead, so this situation could effectively be incentivized and used for good RP fodder. But one way or another, it seems like players will have to roll first and then RP the results in-character, which I don’t know if it presents issues in its own right.


Finally, there’s just the mere fact that racing is a very fast-paced and high energy subject that might not bode well with the slower pace of forum-based RP. However, a game like this also doesn’t require quite the level of creative engagement that something with a heavy plot and a small cast of characters does. It lends itself to a more open-ended and episodic format that could be suitable for players of varying levels of commitment. If people just decide to suspend their disbelief when it comes to the chronology and use extra tabs in the thread, players could participate in more than one race at any given moment (or none), and there could be another tab for non-racing character RP entirely.


Unresponsive players could really hold up a game like this, but this could be managed by setting a reasonable deadline, and just automatically rolling for players who fail to respond in that time, denying them an opportunity to modify their roll and possibly assigning a penalty as well, or potentially retiring them from the race if it’s a recurring issue. I know that strongarming people in-game is really frowned upon in most circles, but in the case of something like this, it might actually eliminate tension more than not because people can at least be confident that the game will continue on way or another.


So does anyone have any thoughts or comments they could contribute regarding this idea? Does anyone have any experience doing a racing-themed RP even if it was totally freeform? I probably didn’t do the best job explaining some aspects of this and I don’t have any real drafts for a proper rules sheet or anything, but I feel like an idea like this could have some promise if I can really distill it down to something simple and approachable.

 

[Primal Conundrum]

Neat topic, and an interesting design challenge!


I feel like aiming for lightweight mechanics is a good idea with this. I like the direction you're going with the roll-under mechanic. One thought I had in regards to that though is that each vehicle has a limit on the number of extra dice of a given size that it can use, with more expensive / higher quality vehicles having a higher top-end. Alternatively, instead of setting a specific die size for different terrain types, it could be assigned a rating. Different vehicles would use different dice for the same rating in some cases, to better represent that an ATV is going to have an easier time on loose gravel than a motorbike will. Probably could abstract the vehicles into rough type categories and build a little progression for their die sizes, that way when people pick their vehicle they just find what archetype it falls under and they use that block.


The other challenge is that people are gonna be rolling on the same posts that they're writing. I feel like the way around this would be to roll for the next turn / section of track, while RPing the results of what number was rolled on that character's previous post.


This would let you design a racetrack by creating a progression of terrain ratings, then setting people loose on it. Each section could require a certain amount of progress to get through, represented by points accumulated through the roll-under mechanic. Rolling over could either add very little progress or, if rolling over some threshold (twice the target number?) could actually reduce progress, as the result of losing control of the vehicle, the engine dying, or whatever else would be appropriate in the given situation.


I think there would need to be a turn order of some sort, with missing players being rolled for after a certain point. Without an ordered structure, it becomes much harder to define what is happening at the same time and what isn't.


I feel like this thread is relevant to my interests, since one RP I really want to eventually do is going to be very vehicle heavy.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

[QUOTE="Primal Conundrum]Alternatively, instead of setting a specific die size for different terrain types, it could be assigned a rating. Different vehicles would use different dice for the same rating in some cases, to better represent that an ATV is going to have an easier time on loose gravel than a motorbike will. Probably could abstract the vehicles into rough type categories and build a little progression for their die sizes, that way when people pick their vehicle they just find what archetype it falls under and they use that block.
The other challenge is that people are gonna be rolling on the same posts that they're writing. I feel like the way around this would be to roll for the next turn / section of track, while RPing the results of what number was rolled on that character's previous post.


This would let you design a racetrack by creating a progression of terrain ratings, then setting people loose on it. Each section could require a certain amount of progress to get through, represented by points accumulated through the roll-under mechanic. Rolling over could either add very little progress or, if rolling over some threshold (twice the target number?) could actually reduce progress, as the result of losing control of the vehicle, the engine dying, or whatever else would be appropriate in the given situation.


I think there would need to be a turn order of some sort, with missing players being rolled for after a certain point. Without an ordered structure, it becomes much harder to define what is happening at the same time and what isn't.

[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I was considering doing something like that where instead of making the die rating for the terrain some kind of universal value, there would be a way of determining it in relation to the vehicle class. One way I was thinking of was dividing the track sections into categories that at least describes the nature of the challenge using broad category terms like sprint, corner, maybe stunt or something. Still not sure what exactly I would want the theme of the game to be, though, since that will inform some features of the track design. Throwing out some more extreme scenery might work if it's something modeled off, say, F-Zero, which can help push suspension of disbelief further, though I guess I'll try to pin down the mechanics before I start thinking about that.


I also tried experimented around with trying to run through some turns while resolving actions at the same time, and while it's possible, it certainly does feel like a bit of a mess which undermines any sense of simplicity it might offer, though I'm not sure what kind of alternative I could do in terms of term order. If I wanted to play it loose, it could just be first come, first served with resolving rolls, though I could see why that might be objectionable too. I also might have to scale back the "dead heat" tiebreaker idea because within the first few turns, far more time was being spent resolving the ties individually than was spent rolling for all the racers at once.


And yeah, I'm also not sure how far I should go with the roll-under mechanic. Automatically giving everyone who goes over the lowest possible payout that turn might be a little excessive since you're rolling all at once and not dice by dice as you would draw cards in Blackjack, but just interpreting the margin as an absolute value might make it feel a little, I don't know, sterile? I might try to compromise with something like, the penalty for going over is double that of going under, but I'd have to experiment with that and see how it feels.

 

[Primal Conundrum]

I think that rolling over should still allow for progress, but as you said, with a sharply declining rate of return. It's honestly gonna take playtesting to get a feel for how much that is, whether it's like two over counts as four or six under or so. That way, the progression balances itself out so that only really bad screwups are going to actually reduce progress.


I feel like dead heat stuff shouldn't need resolving unless it's the end of the race or an important checkpoint.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

I was considering only using that mechanic when it really counts for something, though if it were used more often, it would give me a special feature to consider with one of the vehicle archetypes. Maybe one of them could replenish a few of resource points used to fudge the roll (which I'm thinking of tentatively calling "Rush" or something) every time an opponent is overtaken in a heat, incentivizing a high risk/high reward playstyle. But yeah, the vehicle archetypes are something that will take playtesting as well, but I might want those to be very simple, possibly just a single situational advantage.

 

[Grey]

It might add too much extra rolling or randomization, but what if rolling over target caused a loss of control over the vehicle or a penalty on an upcoming corner or something? You took this turn too wide, which means you have to get back on track and may not pull that off by the next sharp turn, or something of the sort.


Although Conundrum makes a good point about saving tie resolution for critical checkpoints, what if that was a function of driver skill or driver reaction times, in an initiative-like model? Although I have a propensity toward simulationism and I'm not fond of racing in any form so, you know, I wouldn't take my input super seriously. It's just an interesting design problem.


Also, I'd advise against saving setting details for after mechanics. In my opinion, you want to develop those in tandem where possible because the mechanics should underline and reinforce your setting.


I believe @Elle Joyner did a freeform street racing RP a while ago - perhaps she'll have some useful input.


Oh, and since unresponsive players would be a problem, I'd say push them to the back of the pack when they fail to post and have a time limit on actual races. I presume there'll be scenes which are not racing, afterall, and in this context it seems racing is analogous to combat and combat is something you want to resolve fast, usually.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

It might add too much extra rolling or randomization, but what if rolling over target caused a loss of control over the vehicle or a penalty on an upcoming corner or something? You took this turn too wide, which means you have to get back on track and may not pull that off by the next sharp turn, or something of the sort.
Although Conundrum makes a good point about saving tie resolution for critical checkpoints, what if that was a function of driver skill or driver reaction times, in an initiative-like model? Although I have a propensity toward simulationism and I'm not fond of racing in any form so, you know, I wouldn't take my input super seriously. It's just an interesting design problem.


Also, I'd advise against saving setting details for after mechanics. In my opinion, you want to develop those in tandem where possible because the mechanics should underline and reinforce your setting.

"Take a penalty on the next section" might be a good compromise between providing a disadvantage while also making for less unnecessary rolls. If I can find a number that feels right (in relation to the rest of everything else, that is), I may try experimenting with that. And while I'm not totally sure about the setting, I think I'd like for the system to shoot for an "arcade racing game" feel if that's at all descriptive. This could take the form of over-the-top street racing or futuristic anti-gravity racers, but I'll probably have to prod around to see which idea has broader appeal (I imagine street racing would at least be easier to get to grips with).


Also do you have any good ideas for relatively simple mechanics for handling initiative that don't really require a dice roll? Just doing a single roll at the beginning to determine the initiative order throughout the race could minimize the rolling, but be unfair. Having initiative rating be some kind of character attribute that remains static may work in most cases, but if the range isn't very large (and I have a relatively numbers-low system in mind), then some of the racers might end up with the same initiative rankings anyway. Admittedly, my approach to managing initiative in RPGs has typically been extremely informal, and I mean informal in the sense of "not really utilizing it."

 

[Elle Joyner]

I'm not gonna lie... I just used a result generator lol

 

[Grey]

I think most of us end up ignoring initiative as written in favour of narrative flow.


Shit, I barely use the initiative rules I fucking wrote a lot of the time.


I'll be honest with you; I was having WipeOut flashbacks when reading over this.


Hrm, how about a fluctuating initiative value based on how close you hit the target? Starts out a static value based on the driver's experience or quality of their vehicle, slides up and down based on how effectively they handle obstacles?


My major qualm, though, is that it feels less skill-based, if you get me. I feel like player decision making doesn't factor strongly enough into the result of the roll. I guess they're bluffing each other, really? The more I think about it the more it feels like one of those board-games predicated on backstabbing and bluffing.


I seem to recall the new blue book for Chronicles of Darkness had great chase rules that could be adapted, but I haven't used them yet. I expect FATE Core covers this somewhere, too.


I'll prod my network and get back to you - someone I know must have seen a racing RPG somewhere.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

I'll be honest with you; I was having WipeOut flashbacks when reading over this.


Hrm, how about a fluctuating initiative value based on how close you hit the target? Starts out a static value based on the driver's experience or quality of their vehicle, slides up and down based on how effectively they handle obstacles?


My major qualm, though, is that it feels less skill-based, if you get me. I feel like player decision making doesn't factor strongly enough into the result of the roll.

Now that you bring up that point, I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to use a combo system of sorts where a racer's initiative rating continues to go up a little bit with each roll they make where they stay under the target, and then rolling over sets the intiative score to some baseline number.


And yeah, things like WipeOut and F-Zero and Jet Moto might be good references for an idea like this. Since I want something that's simple and abstract, something that isn't quite so grounded in reality like street racing might be a better fit.

 

[Grey]

Maybe you can tie it to a resource model of some kind? Nitro jets or something? You'd have to work really hard to cover it up if the players are completely at the whims of the di-


Oh, hey, what if initiative is a resource like in EX3s combat system? You work on gaining it so you can spend it to overtake people or beat particular challenges? Lead could be your resource, even - you get ahead, and then you sacrifice some of that Lead for a result.


Sorry, I'm kind of throwing stuff at the wall here. Finding a way to maintain player agency seems key or you might as well resolve the race with a single roll. Branching paths would help because at least they a player can work to their strengths (whether those be character traits or special features of their vehicle).


'cause it's a conflict resolution, right? In a combat situation, players choose how to engage. In a debate, they choose what argument to use. In a race, they choose... how to approach an obstacle? How to deal with rival racers?

 

[HeyGayzelle]

I'm not super familiar with EX3's rules, but I've been meaning to look into after hearing things about it from oither people and yourself the other day. A system where you build up points to "buy" or "bid" on a given action like overtaking could have potential because it could offer a better sense of agency, though if handled poorly, it could lead to a situation where only the last few turns actually count for anything.


I'm no RPG system guru, but there seem to be surprisingly few rules systems that deal with racing rules with enough detail to base a game around it. Vehicles will probably end up having a few customizable aspects in one form or another, but I still want actually choosing the number of dice to roll to be one of the primary sources of player agency in the game.


And somehow, a racing game that relies too much on chance almost feels more unfair than a combat-centric game that relies on chance. It almost feels like losing a fight gives a character more substantial RP fodder to chew on than "Well, you lost the race. Too bad."

 

[Grey]

Could always include a metagame of audience approval. Flashy stunts that might not win you the race but keep your sponsors happy with your media presence. But yeah, I've never seen a game dedicate much to racing - probably because it's not high-stakes enough? I imagine you've got more of a plot in mind, or more of an interpersonal drama thing going, but since most RPGs are predicated on an overarching narrative with life or death stakes I can see why racing without violence doesn't come up much.


Also sorry, I completely blanked on the part about choosing numbers of dice. That is a suitably elegant solution and doesn't even need a limited pool to draw from. Disregard my idiot warbling about agency because between that and any other changes you make based on this conversation it'll be fine.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

Could always include a metagame of audience approval. Flashy stunts that might not win you the race but keep your sponsors happy with your media presence.

I was actually initially considering going for demolition derby-style game where players can duke it out on the track, but considering the issues that I've had just getting the cars to go around the track, I imagine I would be biting off way more than I could chew there. Maybe I could just leave that up to the discretion of players RPing, basically just letting them decide if they want to race dirty as part of their persona.


I actually do like the idea of having a metagame involving teams and sponsors, as well as rewarding players that bring some nice flair to their gameplay even if they don't land first place. I was considering having a betting system of sorts, but I have no idea of what players would even spend it on, and I feel like the moment I do introduce stuff to spend it on, I'll end up totally ruining any sense of balance. But ridiculously dangerous hyper-commercialized future sports are an idea that I enjoy quite a bit, so I think I could have fun with the concept if I went in that direction.

 

[Grey]

I think it'll help if you specify that the race is the centre of the PC's lives, sort of thing - encourage them to write characters who need to win for the sake of it, who'll angst about losses, who'll endure inner conflicts over divided priorities (and in a dangerous futuresport setting you can make that more interesting than family vs. passion, for example).


What are you thinking, tonally? Weyland-Yutani sponsored racers, saturday morning cartoons, or unexpectedly mature summer blockbuster?

 

[HeyGayzelle]

I'm actually not sure. Maybe something with an "80s sports movie" sense of stakes and drama. One idea I had that I think could actually work but is too silly to actually commit to is actually basing it off the show Speed Racer and literally having the characters speak in disjointed, redundant run-on sentences throughout the entire RP. It's an idea that makes me grin because of how stupid it is and how it could still actually work, but still, not totally sure it's the right direction to go in with an already unusual RP idea.

 

[Grey]

I dunno, I also thought immediately of Speed Racer. Might make a fun way to test a prototype.


Man, it's tough. Those eighties movies are such a product of their time, you know? The craft of storytelling has advanced enough since I feel like younger people don't even realize they know better than we did back then(mostly), and it makes it so hard to take it appropriately seriously.


You could go full eighties and have the races be proxy wars for future nations.


IN THE DISTANT YEAR OF 1999 HYPERCORPORATIONS SETTLE DISPUTES WITH HOVERBOOSTERS; ADVANCED GRAVITY-RESISTANT LOW-ALTITUDE SPORTS CARS THAT ROCKET THROUGH THE AIR AND THROUGH THE BLASTED STREETS OF NEO-ANGELES.


STARRING DOLPH LUNDGREN

 

[HeyGayzelle]

Man, I have had some actual ideas for anachronistically 80s RP/setting concepts that I honestly feel like may be fun, but are just too stupid to actually put any time towards developing.


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Like, somehow I feel like someone really needs to make a tabletop rules system for whatever the hell this sport is supposed to be. Just turn up the 80s dial one last notch and instead of having the players be tagged out, they're just fucking vaporized in an explosion of neon red hexagons Tron-style.

 

[Grey]

You wouldn't even need a bespoke system for that - FATE Core has it covered. A friend of mine used it to write a convention scenario which was, to paraphrase


"The pilot for a mid-nineties fantasy drama series in the style of Hercules and Xena where the protagonists must battle the Titans using the power of mythological monsters and save post-apocalyptic Hellenic Greece."


Also, after some digging, Star Wars d20 had some pod racing rules that could work. I haven't seen them and I fucking hate d20 but it might be worth hunting down. There's also Cyberpunk 2020s racing rules which I never used but hear good things about. Also, Spycraft has driving subsystems (because getaway Driver is a player archetype) that you might be able to use.


A lot of other examples make heavy use of cards, tokens, and boards.

 

[HeyGayzelle]

I'll have to try and take a look at those systems, but Cyberpunk 2020 looks a little weighty from what I've seen. I probably have a reasonably good grasp on the core dice mechanic this game will rely on, but referencing other materials could still prove helpful because they might cast some light on potential issues or problems that I just don't have the foresight to know of.

 

[Grey]

Oh, aye, I didn't expect you to use any of them, to be honest. I tend to do much the same - research competing games to see where they succeeded and where they failed so I can learn from that.


Alright competing is a bit rich but I'll get that Kickstarter one day you'll all see.