Dual Wielding

[Marquis]

Okay, i'm not sure if there was a topic about this on the old EC site, but I can't seem to find it here, so I'll ask.


The core book only makes 1 mention (that I've been able to find) about dual wielding:


pg 234: "Characters with a weapon in each hand must still split their dice pool to attack more than once a turn."


I've also not been able to find any further mentions of this fighting style in the Players Guide. But is it me, or is this just fucking stupid? What is even the point of using a two weapon fighting style if you don't gain ANY benefit from it. You end up being penalized the exact same way as if you took two swipes with one weapon (which if you think in terms of balance and momentum is completely insane).


Does anyone know of any errata for two-weapon fighting that actually makes it a viable combat style?

 

[RipClaw]

I think the weapons add their acc and def ratings while you apply only the stronger one's dmg. At least that's what I would suggest. The Castebook Night containes some Charms on dual wielding, but I don't have it here, so perhaps somebody could take a look?

 

[Fruan]

But is it me, or is this just fucking stupid? What is even the point of using a two weapon fighting style if you don't gain ANY benefit from it.

While I'm far from an expert, to the best of my knowledge very few fighting styles involve weilding two idendical weapons; whenever a popular fighting style has been two handed, it has been to take advantage of the different properties of the weapon in each hand. Exalted captures this just fine. (Remember your offhand penalty!) This is even more pronounced under power combat, as most mortal weapons have constrictively small rates.


The various martial arts weapons that require being weilded paired do so as a *cost*. There isn't supposed to be any advantage to having a hook sword in each hand, except that hook swords have a fucking huge defence (by mortal standards, at least). I only problem I have with this is that your offhand penalty makes one of your hookswords strictly superiour to the other, leading to stunts in which you flail your right hand about heroicly while your left just stays uselessly at your side. Not very cinematic. The simple solution is, of course, to ignore the offhand penalty with weapons that insist on being weilded paired; this isn't cannonically supported by the rules, but the only effect it has is in encouraging less stupid description.

 

[Marquis]

it's not so much the offhand penalty that I disagree with. It's the dice pool splitting. Attacking twice requires a dice pool penalty because take a swing with a sword puts you off balance. so if you want to attack a second time in quick succession you're going to have spend a lot of energy redirecting the momentum of the first swing. This makes complete sense. When you are using two weapons, however, this becomes less of a problem because you can still remain committed to that first swing and let your other hand come around easily for attack number 2.


I'm not saying attacking with 2 weapons SHOULDN'T incur a split penalty, I just think it should be modified.

 

[Persell]

I would think the benefit given to parrying would be enough to warrant dual weilding. I see no problem with swinging both swords at once in sort of an X down at the opponent either, but I would take the average damage of the swords and roll that. If you swing both at once, you are making your attacks weaker. If you swing one at a time, it is no different then taking multiple attacks with a single weapon. I think that works fine. It could possibly make it harder for the opponent to parry your attacks if you are swinging with both at once though. I'm not sure how you would show that.

 

[Fruan]

When you are using two weapons, however, this becomes less of a problem because you can still remain committed to that first swing and let your other hand come around easily for attack number 2.
I'm not saying attacking with 2 weapons SHOULDN'T incur a split penalty, I just think it should be modified.

Here's the thing: Most people can't do that.


However, some people can. That's what specialities are for. Take a few dots in "Melee (two weapons)", and the penalty for splitting your pool will be more than made up for by the bonus speciality dice.  And as what you're doing will tend to be more interesting than "I hit him with both my axes", you should find it easier to get stunt dice.

 

[Ozymandius]

the house rule where i play is that if you take ambidexterity (the highest points cost) you can make 2 full attacks without splitting your dice pool. I ofcourse broke that right off the bat by using Iron whirlwind and getting 10 attacks out of it, however the rule still stands here

 

[Sherwood]

Here is an idea that I saw in another White Wolf book (I think it was the Combat book, but I don't remember).  I suggested one of two ways - first, you can raise the difficulty for your opponent in striking you in melee by one (or take away one success).  Or, it allows you to split your dice pools and adds a die to each, so you can do a double strike, or a strike/parry combo.

 

[Andrew02]

I'm sort of at a loss as to why wielding two weapons should give you a benefit of any sort just for using two weapons. I mean, it would make sense if helmets gave you a penalty, but they're just for show, you know? I mean, you would think something that is as easy as strapping a bucket to your head would give you a benefit, no? But it does not.  Exalted does not make sense like that. It's dinosaurs vs. robots.


I really think it's just you here, Marquis.


Anyway, Castebook: Night does a handful of charms that spruce up two weapon fighting if you've just GOT to have those two scimitars, katanas, or whatever. The Fire Dragon Style gives you a dual-wielding benefit as the style bonus, if memory serves, if you use the style weapons and all that jazz.


I don't feel like looking through the PG to find out if it talks about Rate and Dual-Wielding, because I am lazy and I don't like DW much.


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... alWielding


Take a gander. I'm sure the vein in your forehead will explode with rage at dual-wielding "getting the shaft."

 

[Jakk Bey]

Exalted isn't a combat sim. It's a game of high adventure. Add the Mako voice right there. Dual swords allow ample opportunity for Stunts, and it's about the style.  


When it comes down to it, the only advantage for dual weilding weapons comes from the skill of the practioner. There are plenty of styles that teach both offensive and defensive work with paired weapons, and with different weapons--axe and blade, blade and dagger, paired short blades. When you're dealing with staves and spears, you're essentially dealing with two weapons that are joined at the center. Most dual weapon styles are heavy into the defensive nature of the secodn weapon.


I do think that giving Ambidexterity a pass at a full extra action is unbalancing.  Comes down to it, keeping track of a second weapon takes a little more skill, and a bit more concentration so you don't  slice or thwap off parts you'd rather stay attached or unbruised.


From the mechanical perspective, it makes sense for Exalted to keep it simple. You have your rate of attacks that can be performed with a big weapon--smaller weapons are faster, and you can use that rate to your advantage, but it still means that you're keeping track of where those suckers are at, so you don't injure yourself.  It doesn't automatically give someone with two weapons an advantage--which keeps in tone with the wuxia flicks. It becomes more about style, so that folks are all on the same page. There's enough room to twink out, rather than trying to eke out every single last advantage.


One of the things that I liked about Star Wars: Jedi Academy was that each lightsaber style had its advantages and disadvantages. Yes, you could put up a fence of light with two sabers, but a single saber, wielded strongly could crush through the defense. Dual blade saber wasn't quite as fast, but certainly stronger than a single saber. It all balanced out in the end, and just because you saw someone with two blades didn't mean that they were about to whip on you.


It comes down to style--and if you want a character to use two weapons, that's fine. You can either work up Charms for that style, or you can Stunt your way to success, but the rules are supposed to flatline a bit, so that just rolling out with two weapons doesn't give you any real mechanical advantage--in fact, it gives you a bit of disadvantage for using the off hand--which is what happens in real life, unless you're ambidextrous.


Style your way to the top, but that's the only reason in Exalted to use two weapons, is style. Especially when you're rolling against fellas with six and half foot swords, and axes that can behead buffalo. That you can parry a mattock the size of a five gallon drum with a pair of slender blades isn't terribly realistic, is mighty kind of the designers, because in real life, pulling out a couple of stillettos against a warhammer isn't very wise.

 

[Ozymandius]

i say you'd get the full rate of the lowest one and then maybe 1 or 2 extra, if you had a speciality and/or Ambidexterity.

 

[psychoph]

I personally do that you get full rate of both weapons and then limit the number of attacks to the dice pool.


I haven't seen it as a big advantage or disadvantage because the dice pool usually limits the player to a maximum of 6 attacks, and without charms they are usually defensless after.  Granted i haven't done one on one exalted combat yet so it is ually a ton of extras where 6 attacks makes combat go a lot quicker.


Don't think there is a perfect answer for this one, just your own opinion and what you and your troup of players wants to do.


I see full rate are more I am a Bad ass Combat person, which makes the game more cinematic and high flying with Solars being able to decimate entire troops of people.


I also allow my players to disarm on parries if they gain 3 more successes than the attack, this is also to add a more cimenatic feel and give the players the option to disarm extras rather than have to kill everything they see as imo that woudl make several in the Party limit break very quickly as they see people die needlessly.