Confirmed - Exalted 2nd Ed. coming

I'd say every White Wolf book EVER has been poorly researched, too.


There are 3 real reasons why Changeling failed:


1) Chimerical reality vs actual reality was just stupid, both in theory and in execution.  Chimerical reality was simply so far divorced from the actual world that Changelings were much more like people playing pretend than actual supernatural beings in most cases.  Admittedly, this was an intended theme of the game, but that intended theme damaged its fun factor.


2) Glamour vs Banality was never really sufficiently explained.  Glamour could JUST ABOUT get away with not really being defined or explained well because it was supposed to be chaotic, but Banality should have had a rock hard explanation.  Technological process and science were supposedly banal... but Nockers did the exact same stuff for the most part.  Cynicism was banal... but creativity and cynicism can go hand in hand.  It was supposedly banal to not believe in this you couldn't see... but Changelings didn't really believe in anything they couldn't see either, they just could see MORE.  That doesn't even get into the totally wacky and arbitrary Banality assignments that were handed out (e.g. for some reason Werewolves are very low Banality on average, while Vampires are very high on average).


3) The game mechanics were just lame.  The Art + Realm system ensured you were very limited in what you could affect (particularly with the Actor Realm being such a pain in the ass).  Glamour was REQUIRED to cast ANY Cantrip that had a real world effect (and generally you'd have to spend more than one point to get your dice pool down), but Glamour was also a huge pain to get without Ravaging, with Musing sometimes taking SIX MONTHS to POSSIBLY get Glamour.  


Overall the game's theme and systemology is what damned it, not things about white people or poor research.
 
Joseph said:
Maryuoh said:
3) They made being white evil, and most of their audience is white
4) They made being okay with civilization and technology evil, and most of their audience... yeah, you know.
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Werewolf did both of these things also, for the record.  As such, I don't think they are particularly participatory in this case.  Lots of the liberal types of who play White Wolf games are keen on both those features.

Maryuoh said:
6) Everything was centered around Europe. Even though White people are evil.
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Adhene?  Hsien?  Nunnehi?  Eshu?
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Yeah. When they did mention other cultures, it was always minimalist and stereotypical. Consider that of the major Kiths, the only one not Euro-centric are the Eshu, who are supposed to single-handedly represent the dreams of the Middle East and North Africa. Also consider how the Kingdoms are carved up; every crappy little country in Europe is a Kingdom. There are six or seven Kingdoms in the US, but Mexico and Central and Southern America all get lumped into one big Kingdom.


And the non-European originated groups simply aren't used, anyway. I looked through Freeholds and Hidden Glens the other day, one of the few worthwhile reads Changeling put out, and even there, of the characters with identifiable ethnicitiy, the ratio was something like 27 white characters and 5 non-white. I wasn't counting the Trolls, even though they all looked White.


Basically, Changeling's entire setting and flavor was more of the crap of WASP descendants talking about how evil white people are while biting the cultures of others'. To quote a great rant/speech/poem; "In the ultimate American Indian novel, when it is written, all the Whites will be Indians, and all the Indians will be dead."


Like I said, there are a lot of reasosn Changeling failed. There was little effort or skill put into any aspect of the game.
 
Hearing that WW is gonna revise this system gave me that same confused feeling that the whole "we're ending the WOD line" gave me.


 I understand that revisions are needed.  But after watching the way White Wolf markets its games, this $40 second edition (no matter how colorful and corrective it may be) is gonna be obsolete in no time, and I'm sure that anything published before it will be obsolete in 2 years.


 We've seen it with the WOD series and how it ended.  Anyone remember how long it took to get a Werewolf 2d ED players guide?  How soon after that did Werewolf 3d ED come out?


 WW's got a great following, and I do like their stuff, but I don't storytell nearly as much as is necessary to keep buying entire new editions.  It's not necessary to run a good adventure.  I've got every hardcover up to Fair Folk by now, supported by plenty of caste books and supplements.  Plus I was debating over Autocthonians.  I'm taking this 2d edition as a hint to save my money and spend more time tailoring my own rules for the system to make my story work.


 As if I didn't already cut against the cannon storyline.. oh well.
 
The first thing I did after reading the news article was wince, as images of what happend with the whole lot of original WOD books raced through my mind. Fingers crossed WW aren't deciding to follow in the original V:tM footsteps just to sell more books :/


With a revised Core book I would most like to see (as do several others) the Solar charms brought in line with the 'power creep' we have seen throughout the more recent releases. As noted above (and on WW's developer transcript chat after the Autochthon fatsplat) the caste/aspect books weren't selling enough to warrant continuing them for Abyssals/Sidereals etc, do it's very doubtful they'll be re-released in any form (though it would be nice to have the charms from them in the revised book for completeness' sake).


One thing I would very much like to see in the revised book, to make it definitely worthwhile for all the fans who already have the current eXalted library, is a fast forward on the setting timeline. Not sure how much time (maybe 2 years? 5?) as WW will still want nothing canon (ie Bull of the North having already invaded and taken over/raized a city), but it would be nice to see some events that have transpired, and to give us some new material to get our teeth into rather than just rehashing/retconning the existing bits.
 
[quote="roninkitty"


One thing I would very much like to see in the revised book, to make it definitely worthwhile for all the fans who already have the current eXalted library, is a fast forward on the setting timeline. Not sure how much time (maybe 2 years? 5?) as WW will still want nothing canon (ie Bull of the North having already invaded and taken over/raized a city), but it would be nice to see some events that have transpired, and to give us some new material to get our teeth into rather than just rehashing/retconning the existing bits.


yeah it's difficult to know what to do with that, caus ei want to to see a good degree of what events are unfolding, but it also need to be a point where new characters can be in and getting involved with things to be able to make a difference. and large amounts of metaplot make that difficult
 
A nice thing that Exalted 'metaplot' kind of lets you do is say, 'if I don't have the book, it never happened/will not happen.'


Even the stuff Exalted has now could arguably be difficult to work new characters in. After all . . . they couldn't've saved Thorns, you'd have to turn back the clock or something for them to help Bull of the North, same for them be part of the first Solars recruited for the Cult of the Illuminated, and all sorts of junk.
 
If they include advancing metaplots I want them to keep it discrete from the core (unadvanced) setting. Design it like E:tA where they present you with several years of possible game time without forcing it down the throat of everyone else. It remains optional.


Otherwise advancing metaplots leave me feeling that White Wolf is trying to derail what I want to do with the game. Like I'm playing someone else's game.


I think the best approach to a revision is to just release the books again with the implicit understanding that these are not neccessarily replacing the previous books. The revised and the original should remain compatible. But this would allow you to clean up previous messes (like Lunars) without severely impacting the setting or the books you already own.
 
Even if they did advance the metaplot in 2nd Edition, you could just read the flavour metaplot stuff, and just use the new rules. It's so very easy to do. It's like, say, the Adventurer/Aberrant/Trinity line where everything had to link up just so to avoid things being all bizarro.
 
Andrew02 said:
Even if they did advance the metaplot in 2nd Edition, you could just read the flavour metaplot stuff, and just use the new rules. It's so very easy to do. It's like, say, the Adventurer/Aberrant/Trinity line where everything had to link up just so to avoid things being all bizarro.
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True. I could do this.


But if they keep things discrete like I mentioned earlier it also means I don't have to waste my time digging out the stuff I'm not going to use.


You could also say since they have created special sections of possible timelines seperate from the 'canon' one its very easy for you to select the one you want without worrying about the rest. That seems equally good.
 
I can't even name a book in the Exalted line where the metaplot stuff is overt. They're all organized more or less into chapters that are dedicated to flavour or mechanics. All that's involved is to avoid reading chapters entitled "Setting."
 
Andrew02 said:
I can't even name a book in the Exalted line where the metaplot stuff is overt. They're all organized more or less into chapters that are dedicated to flavour or mechanics. All that's involved is to avoid reading chapters entitled "Setting."
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Thats because the Exalted designers made a deliberate decision to keep metaplots (and the subsequent advancing of the story arc) to a minimum. You got the barebones setting circa whatever year and that was that. The rest would be up to the Storyteller. So metaplot isn't overt and I want to keep it that way.
 
True. I could do this.
But if they keep things discrete like I mentioned earlier it also means I don't have to waste my time digging out the stuff I'm not going to use.
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The books should be organized and produced to save you the several seconds that would be required skipping metaplot related material?  Heck, put it all into a single chapter, put that chapter at the end of the book, and then no one has to skip over it EVER.  You either keep reading at that point, or you don't.


I don't really care one way or another about whether Exalted involves metaplot, but saying you think it shouldn't be included because it wastes an incredibly small amount of your time to skip past it is pretty ridiculous, not to mention ridiculously selfish.  MORE content -- assuming it is fairly well thought out and consistent -- is never a bad thing, because you can always ignore it, but in its absence players can't magically make it appear.  


Why should everyone who potentially wants metaplot not get it just because selfish little pukes can't stand wasting several seconds skipping it?
 
Well that was phrased somewhat... emphatically Joseph but I do agree with what you are saying. It is easier to have something available that you don't want and choose to ignore it rather than not having something that you'd like access to and then possibly having to buy another supplement which would be a pain.


As it is I'm not too sure how I stand on metaplot, I would be happy to see an Autochtonians style "This might happen; or this; or this" set of chapters at the back of the book but not have it overly dominant


The time when it gets to far is when every supplement has things in it that assumes that you've read every other supplement that preceded it and know what colour of socks Tzimisce favours canonically, then it gets just stupid
 
The sole thing I can think of that is assumed is the fall of the Tepet Legion to Bull of the North. The DB fatsplat mentions this and Kingdom of Halta elaborates.
 
Injektilo said:
Well that was phrased somewhat... emphatically Joseph
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That's my style.

Injektilo said:
As it is I'm not too sure how I stand on metaplot, I would be happy to see an Autochtonians style "This might happen; or this; or this" set of chapters at the back of the book but not have it overly dominant
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I actually thought they were a waste of space in the Autochthonians book.  I'd much rather metaplot -- if it IS to be included -- came in its own manuals.  That would make it even EASIER for people who didn't want it to avoid it by not buying it.  

Injektilo said:
The time when it gets to far is when every supplement has things in it that assumes that you've read every other supplement that preceded it and know what colour of socks Tzimisce favours canonically, then it gets just stupid
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I agree with this.  If metaplot IS included and advanced, it needs to be done so in a way that distinctively does not affect the rules or mechanics of the game.  Properly done metaplot manuals get around this I think; I can't say I'd buy them myself, but I bet many would be interested in them.
 
Joseph said:
Why should everyone who potentially wants metaplot not get it just because selfish little pukes can't stand wasting several seconds skipping it?
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While I never actually said that metaplot should be removed (I said it should be discrete from the standard setting...not cut out entirely) your right that its selfish to want certain things out of the books I buy. So what?
 
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