Carl, did you even read the core book?

D

Decurion

Junior Member
I now wish to slap Carl Bowen.  Why?  He's the editor of Scroll of the Monk.


Let me quote page 99.


"Most practicioners keep their Archery rating at least as high as their Martial Arts (if only so they can Combo the style's Charms with powerful Archery Charms)"


Almost the entire Archery charm tree is supplemental charms.  Unless specifically stated in the charm description, supplemental charms cannot be placed in combos with non-reflexive charms from other abilities.


Near as I and my ST can tell, that means pretty much the only Archery charms you can use with Righteous Devil Style are the Inexhaustible Bolts of Solar Fire and a couple others that follow the Essence Arrow Attack charm (which you can't use with RDS).  Because, you know, I thought that was a pretty cool idea, and it flat out doesn't work.
 
Poor editing for all of White Wolf's stuff is old news.
 
Consider yourself lucky.  The other game system that I dig into is Champions (AKA Hero System).  Everything is organized in a very efficient manner, and the index is great for when you are looking for some bizarre rule.  The Exalted books are a nightmare of chaos, pain, and confusion.  I love the game, but trying to locate a Charm in one tree that is referenced in another one, or a artifact/hearthstone, is enough to make a person pull out hair.
 
Last week I did a oneshot of aeternal legends. It is a weird mixture of urban fantasy tropes. From harry potter to neverwhere and features legendary heroes fighting the good fight and/or getting corrupted on the way. It has rules for all of that. I read the book once and could run it without ever looking into it again.


Why am I saying this? Because the book had a poor layout. I can live with poor layout if I will not once look into the book while playing, but with exalted and all its charms... geeee.
 
Too bad there isn't a searchable database of most of the canonical Charms...
 
Speaking of, are you going to finish the Lunar charms? Because all that I see when I click on them is the excellencies followed by two other charms.
 
Typing them up is a lot of tedious work. Coyotekin was able to help me by typing up about half of them, but I still need to do the other half.
 
Flagg said:
Too bad there isn't a searchable database of most of the canonical Charms...
Click to expand...
My game group is bad enough with off-track and kibitzing as it is.  If internet were permitted during the game?  Forget it.
 
Well, Decurion, kind of funny I came across this post. I have just got a group together after moving, and one of my Solars is heavy into martial arts, and is a practicioner of Righteous Devil Style.


I noticed the exact same thing you pointed out. In my case, I told my player, that I may allow him to combo archery and righteous devil style supplementals on a case by case basis, which I will probably only disallow if it doesn't make sense mechanics wise. Unbalancing, perhaps a bit, but we'll see - I'm lucky as we just started our second session of game, and he does not currently possess any archery charms to worry about comboing at the moment. I suppose I will see in time.
 
Actually if you look at the 2nd Ed. section on Combos it says that Supplemental Charms must affect the action taken. Normally, at least in physical combat, this means "based on the same ability," but because of how MA Charms are such bastards (in every sense I can think of) this tendency isn't worth the neurons that would go into considering it.


This means that Archery Charms that affect attacks with firewands (et. al.) can be comboed with Righteous Devil Style Charms that also affect attacks with firewands or are attacks with firewands.


At least that's how I read it.


This does not mitigate the horrendous editing in White Wolf books, and I think it's gotten just that much worse since oWoD ended.
 
Braydz said:
Actually if you look at the 2nd Ed. section on Combos it says that Supplemental Charms must affect the action taken. Normally, at least in physical combat, this means "based on the same ability," but because of how MA Charms are such bastards (in every sense I can think of) this tendency isn't worth the neurons that would go into considering it.
This means that Archery Charms that affect attacks with firewands (et. al.) can be comboed with Righteous Devil Style Charms that also affect attacks with firewands or are attacks with firewands.


At least that's how I read it.


This does not mitigate the horrendous editing in White Wolf books, and I think it's gotten just that much worse since oWoD ended.
Click to expand...
If the combo has any simple charms in it, the supplemental charm must be used to benefit it. (I can see how you read that, but keep reading).


Unless the charm's description states otherwise, supplemental charms can only benefit uses of the ability on which they are based. (Usually each individual charm has a write up in it, such as spirit cutting attack, in which it specifically states it can be combod with charms of other abilities).


If there are no simple charms in the combo, the supplemental charm must benefit all of the character's non-reflexive actions. (Again, keep reading)...


Unless the charms description indicates otherwise, supplemental charms can only benefit uses of the ability on which they are based.


- Exalted 2nd Edition core, page 245, for those inclined for references.


Now, I have my own opinion on this. But, I believe that they wrote the rules like this was because each ability didn't have a kind of 'crossover' like martial arts and form weapons do. So, with exception to martial arts, firewands would only be used by archery. So, no using your archery supplemental charms on a, i dunno, dodge based roll, or an athletics roll, because that just doesn't make sense.


And, no, just because it is Martial Arts charms, doesn't mean this rule doesn't apply. You wouldn't be allowed to combo a supplemental archery charm with a disarm attempt from mantis style, or an attack charm from even blade style.


Technically however, the whole 'can only be used on the ability which they are based' however, makes the OP correct. Archery charms can not be comboed with martial arts charms (righteous devil style). However, I feel that allowing it is just common sense interpretation, and is why I am allowing it after the player runs by the combo purchase by me (which they always do in any case).


And, that is why I am allowing my player to combo supplemental archery charms with his righteous devil style charms. 1) for the writeup in scroll of the monk, as poorly edited as it was and 2) because, it makes sense that archery supplemental charms be used on attacks with firewands, even if it is technically martial arts. Again, technically, though, I am bending the mechanics on this. But, I think I am doing it rightfully so. Of course, others are welcome to disagree.
 
Now that I read through those clauses again, you're right. I could re-write the part that lead me to that understanding and parse it out but it's not worth it because I still end up wrong.


There are however more references to cross-Ability Comboes, none of which that I can site off the top of my head, that prompted me to look at the Combo rules good & hard and come up with that interpretation. To the point that I almost feel that the very nit-picky way the Combo rules are written is the odd-man-out. But hey, is just me.


So as usual,


Nevermind. Just ignore what I said.
 
Note also that Righteous Devil charms all require a specific amount of Archery to learn. Similarly, Even Blade, which mentions frequently being combo-ed with Melee charms requires Melee to learn. My own interpretation has been to allow styles which have such requirements to count as charms of both abilities which are required to learn the charm for the purpose of combos.
 
It is nice to know that other STs have allowed players to combo supplemental archery with righteous devil - I wonder if there are other martial arts trees that have this issue, or is it just righteous devil / even blade?
 
Note also that Righteous Devil charms all require a specific amount of Archery to learn. Similarly' date=' Even Blade, which mentions frequently being combo-ed with Melee charms requires Melee to learn. My own interpretation has been to allow styles which have such requirements to count as charms of both abilities which are required to learn the charm for the purpose of combos.[/quote']
It's pretty much the only way, unless your characters are dripping in custom made Charms...
Click to expand...
 
Where are you folks seeing tha the Even Blade and Righteous Devil Charms have min. (Other) requirements?
 
Righteous Devil says that devotees keep their Archery high for the purpose of Charms, though it's not required.


Missed that about Even Blade.


The way Ledaal Kajiri put it it sounded like each Charm had a Melee/Archery prereq., as opposed to the Style having requisite Abilities.


My B'.
 
It does indeed require minimums. I'll give you quotes.


Found on page 70 of Scroll of the Monk:


Even Blade dojos teach conventional swordsmanship as well as the style's special techniques. To learn this martial art , a character must posses at least 2 dots in Melee.


Further on page 99 of Scroll of the Monk, in reference to Righteous Devil:


An Exalt must posses at least 2 dots of Archery before he can learn this martial art.


Both of these are quite specific requirements of abilities other than Martial Arts.


Other styles with similar requirements include Falling Blossom (2 Dodge), Night Breeze (2 Thrown), White Veil (2 Socialize and 2 in any of Presence, Larceny or Stealth), Crimson Pentacle Blade (2 Melee), Dreaming Pearl Courtesan (2 Presence, Performance or Socialize), Silver-Voiced Nightingale (2 Performance), Citrine Poxes of Contagion (3 Medicine), Scarlet Patterned Battlefield (3 War), and Lightning Hoof (Ride equal to Martial Arts for all charms). All such are quite specifically listed.
 
Yes I'm aware of the phenomenon, I'd just missed that Even Blade and Righteous Devil had such req.s.
 
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