Are The 2.5 Anima Effects Unbalanced?

Ker'ion

Ker'ion

Primordial of Abstract Logic
After the errata, the Dawn anima power's price was cut in half, an -1 automatic penalty for all enemies (unless you blow 5 WP), a +2 difficulty to coordinate attacks, and a -2 penalty to all route rolls was ADDED.


Zeniths had their attacks versus creatures of darkness dropped from an Essence die bonus to just one die.


Twilights lost their soak power and had it replaced with the ability to add dice to any roll to notice, identify, or analyze Charms.


Nights kept the same stealth and anima flare blocking powers.


And Eclipses only had a minor tweak, having to swap non-Solar invulnerability flaws from outside Charms for the Solar ones. The part about having to buy the prereq Charms part is just a common sense rule.


So why did the Twilight and Zenith Castes get ripped off while the Dawn power got amplified?


Rebalancing the Dawn Caste is not an excuse for breaking two other Castes' anima powers.


As far as I'm concerned, unless they repair this mess, the Zenith and Twilight powers are being kept as per 2E in my games. I'll change the rest of them.


Comparing the new Solar anima powers to those of other Exalt types puts Nights and Eclipses on par or slightly above, with the Dawns tanking the anima power tree, as even the DBs have a better anima power than the new Twilight Caste power.
 
I agree. I understand that Twilights often go the 'Occult Reseacher' route.... Wait, actually, no.


They don't.


So why the hell should they be bothered about analyzing the Charms of others? I mean, if they were interested in that, then there's AESS + Investigation Excellencies. The bonuses vs. magical Illusions is nice, but very limited in play terms, unless you are going up against Fae or other creatures that use that kind of thing.


Captain Hesperus
 
For the Zenith, they dropped the minimum damage to 1 because of the overall minimum damage effect being changed to 1 rather than the Essence rating. While not a great idea, it does keep the power the same in the terms of minimum damage effects. Luckily, they still keep the bonuses to Saok. I would also drop this to a 5m cost.


The Twilight effect is bsically emulating Charms that already existed, so it does appear they were given a bad deal in the 2.5 change. Especially considering it also confers a bonus to a non-Caste ability. It might have been a better idea to keep the old ability, but make it a -1 to the total damage after the roll. Then add the +3 bonus to the Dodge MDV against unnatural illusions. Effectively making their anima a protective measure as it was in 2.0. I would keep this at the 5m cost as well.


Of course, dropping everyone else to a 5m cost also seems like a good idea to me.
 
The Dawn anima is the same way it was after the Dawn Solution, which is not the same as the latest combat errata. Likewise, the Eclipse erratum you are referring to was added prior to the latest round of errata. This is not to say that they are or are not inappropriate; they just aren't part of the same package of fixes, and shouldn't be considered as targeting the same problems.


The Zenith and Twilight animas were directly contrary to the combat errata, and had to be changed. Particularly the latter, which has been a horribly disruptive effect ever since the First Edition core book was published.


Consider that the rules being addressed are in a state of flux, and are not finished.


Also, being strident about this stuff isn't necessarily going to get you unheard, but at the very least I'd be personally grateful if people would just cut that out. Even if you don't act like we hate your favorite splat, or that we are idiots; even if you're just kind of pushy. There are more than a couple of people who, despite their insight, I actively avoid, because eating five pounds of shit is not worth an ounce of gold. Especially when I can get that gold elsewhere.
 
I think you can relax Plague. The fact that we are discussing the game means there is still an interest in seeing it improved. We all love the setting and people are always going to have an issue with something written in a rulebook.
 
I'm not saying you don't have a point, I just don't think Ker'ion's post was necessarily as inflammatory as you took it. But that's just my reading of it. I'm currently running on 48 hours of no sleep, so I probably shouldn't offer opinions about anything right now.
 
Personally, I'm sort of intrigued by the change to the Twilight Anima. It never seemed at all related to the Twilight before...just 'Let's be awesome tanks'... while the new one seems actually useful for scholars, investigators and loremasters in ways that the 'We be soak monkeys' was not really all that...Twilight. I fear I haven't had the chance to see it in action yet...but it both seems more thematically appropriate, and also seems to fix something of the issue of Twilights having the strongest combat anima for some time.


The Zenith anima...I can...see with the 2.5 changes to combat, but will have to see it in action to really judge, again. Especially with how the overall changes to Overwhelming and Essence Ping and Perfect Defenses all interact with such. Not to mention the general lowering of damage pools for weapons.
 
To be honest, I'd like to see the option of an Option A/Option B Anima ability for all the Castes.


For the Dawn, Option A might be the 'Combat Monkey' anima, with the DV bonus etc. Option B might be for the more military-minded Dawn with the ability to drop fear effects on enemy mass combat units and bolster friendly units.


For the Zenith, Option A might be the 'Shoot Bolts of Sunfire vs. CoD' option while Option B is the 'Bonus Soak and H2H Damage Bonus vs. CoD'.


For Twilights, Option A is 'Soak Fiend', Option B is 'Occult Researcher'.


For Nights, Option A is the current 'Mute Anima, bonus Stealth', Option B? Not sure, perhaps some kind of 'Perfect Assassin' power?


For Eclipses, Option A is the current standard 'Seal Oaths, Diplomatic Immunity, Learn Others' Charms' shtick and Option B might even be the chance to peel off that massively bloated Anima power into two smaller ones, perhaps an option that Option A is the 'Learn Others' Charms, Diplomatic Immunity' and Option B is Seal Oaths as well as a UMI-like effect that prevents others from taking offensive actions against them as long as they remain non-aggressive?


Captain Hesperus
 
If everyone is done venting their anger all over the thread, I would really like to know how an expanded specialty is considered a balanced anima power.


The semi-official response seemed to gloss over it while telling me I was wrong for having a contrary opinion on the matter.
 
And as an add-on, how is having [Essence] more natural soak considered horribly disruptive? In most games, it's +2 to +6 at best.


(Sorry about the double post, as it won't let me edit my post)
 
Because that's not what the old Anima power did? Subtracting Essence from Health levels of damage and having Essence more soak aren't the same thing, exactly, and the effect is more powerful than simply adding more soak. It meant that attacks reduced to ping were a complete non-issue, and those of around double ping were still unlikely to do much if any damage either on average. Which...could result in someone say, throwing on heavy armor and pretty much ignoring anything other than bad touch effects without even bothering defending at all. Once they made them pay for each use that mitigated things somewhat, certainly, but still left things significantly stronger than most anima effects...and still not really making much sense for a scholar, healer, crafter, sorcerer, investigator type focus. 'I am made of iron' was never really part of the fluff of the caste in any way, yet that's what their anima was randomly. Now, the reasoning behind such, of giving some defense while casting sorcery or necromancy despite lack of charm access while doing so isn't entirely unreasonable, but... seemed somewhat shoehorned even so, especially as the fluff never really...meshed.
 
Hmm... still, I don't see the current Twilight anima as being on par with the others.
 
[QUOTE="Ker'ion]Hmm... still, I don't see the current Twilight anima as being on par with the others.

[/QUOTE]
Because it's just a dice bonus.


Boooring!


Same for Zenith (which I find too combat oriented) and Dawn (Petty and mechanical.. Look, I throw buckets of dice!)


The really awesome anima effects are Night and Eclipse, because they expand the possibilities of the character, rather than just adding a mechanical advantage.


They are unique, they cannot be simulated with other effects.


For the Dawn, I would have put Elegant Dance of Bow and Blade as innate Caste Ability, and Dawn King's Strife as anima flare ability.


As befitting their passion, Zenith could pay one WP less for any Zenith-Ability Charm Activation while their Anima is flaring, this fits well the theme of all their abilities.


Twilight, I don't know, but just a dice bonus is a lost opportunity to add something fun.


Having their DV never decrease as result of actions based on Twilight Abilities or Charms may be a start.
 
The only worth Anima effect are the Night and the Eclipse, because they expand the possibilities of the characters rather than just add a token mechanical bonus.


The 2.5 Twilight power is especially sad, because you are rolling anyway against a difficulty value arbitrarily set by the ST, it seems to me a lost opportunity to add something fun.


Personally, for the Dawn anima I would have set Elegant Dance of Bow and Blade as innate ability, and Dawn's King Strife as activated power.


Anyone can be really good with one weapon, but this is core stuff for a Dawn.


For Zenith, the activated power could allow to reduce by one WP the activation cost of any Charm based on a Zenith Ability.


IMHO this fits very well with the Zenith theme and would be useful even if the character is a pacifist and even if the game does not include many creatures of darkness.


Regarding the Twilights, I don't know, but even letting them ignore DV penalties for actions based on Twilight-abilities (including Sorcery!) would be much better that what we have now.
 
I thought the change to the Twilight anima was amazing.


It's sweet and it's thematic and even if you're not an "occult researcher" it's always useful to know what the fuck you're faced against.
 
I like the changes since the Dawn anima power is now more powerful then a walking rotting copse would produce, and the Twilight anima is finaly in theme with them being scholors and craftsman. But I do agree that addding just a mechinal bonus is not very exciting. Dawns do not lead men better and Zeniths are not better priests.


How can their animas enhance their core function?


Should Dawns automatically succeed on coordination rolls?


Can Zeniths always reach a god with a prayer directly? Perhaps give "battlefeild promotions" to small gods if a higher post is vacant?


I have always liked the idea that a Twilight should be able to attune to any artifact instantly and with no extra cost, or attune for free at the 11+ level for the sceen.
 
I may be reading the errata incorrectly, but my interpretation of the anima effects are as follows:


Dawn: got discount and enhanced as per The Dawn Solution


Zenith: did NOT get a complete rewrite. I am reading the errata to say that the ONLY bit from the Zenith anima effect that got changed was the part that says they add the Essence Rating to their dice pool when attacking Creatures of Darkness. This got reduced to One extra die. Everything else is as it was in the core book as I'm reading this.


Twilight: got a complete rewrite, they went from "soak fiend" to "occult researcher" (as was appropriately described above), as well as the bonus to detecting illusions and deceptions. The errata even says "Replace the text of this anima effect with the following:"


Night: no change


Eclipse: the "no cherry picking" clause just makes sense. If you want to learn a Charm, ANY Charm, you need to learn the prerequisites first. Clarification that Solar Mirror Charms for Abyssal Charm prerequisites is nice and makes sense. Not having to commit surcharge motes to non-Solar perm Charms is a good bonus. Using Solar-based flaws of invulnerability just makes sense. You're a Solar using a Charm, ANY Charm with a flaw of invulnerability. Why would you be able to use non-Solar flaws of invulnerability? You're already using a borrowed charmset in your own repertoire, but since you are a Solar you are still bound by your own base set of rules.


So, as I'm interpreting the changes, the only big revamp was for the Twilights. I'm not sure if it will cause any discourse in my games, but I'm thinking of just house-ruling it for any Zeniths or Twilights. The Errata rule states that the Zenith can add one die to the minimum damage that can be rolled against CoD's. The original part of this effect was [Essence Rating] in dice to minimum damage, thus effectively doubling the "ping" damage that Zeniths can cause to CoD's. Well, the errata is keeping with this part as I'm interpreting it. Zeniths still get to double the minimum amount of damage they can cause to CoD's. It's significantly less, yes, but it's still effectively the same. As a house-rule, you could say that Zeniths can instead add their Essence Rating to their Raw Damage pool against CoD's. Less effective since the extra dice are still subject to hardness and soak applications, but it may still be enough to make a difference in battle. Another option would be to just keep the original 2.0 effect. That way you are merely reducing a Zenith's minimum damage against CoD's by half of the original 2.0 rule rather than cutting it down to 2 dice.


As for the revamp of the Twilight anima effect, I would be apt to say let the player pick between the original and the 2.0 effects based on they type of character they are building. Alternatively, the original effect could be tweaked many different ways. Instead of getting a post-damage-roll boost to soak, you could have the effect echo the Zenith effect of add Essence Rating to soak for ALL attacks, not just those that come from CoD's. Too much? Then maybe apply Essence Rating to Hardness instead. Maybe only allow the extra Soak if the attack is from an Essence-Enhanced attack.


My two cents.
 
Now to add my 2 cents-


Old Dawn anima was laughable. A fear aura was okay early on, but, let's be honest, any Solar worth his salt is gonna be fighting Non-Euclidian Horrors From Beyond Time and Space by the end of the day. The kind of stuff that gives no fucks about your fear aura. It seemed an awfully useless power in the later ranks.


Zenith does feel slightly nerfed, but, they still do get the bonus to prayer rolls, even though it's not mentioned their anima power. I'd leave it as is, but, if you wanted to make a slight change, perhaps also actually being able to add the Holy keyword to attacks made vs. creatures of darkness while flaring. I mean, it's already pretty much a holy effect, but the Holy keyword added in will make it play out a bit differently vs certain Charms, especially those of Abyssal, Infernal, and Fae origin.


Twilight- This NEEDED to be changed. Holy lightly seasoned crap on a pogo stick, did it need change. Why were the Twilights the tanks of the group? It makes about as much sense as Chewbacca living on Endor.


0330chewbacca.jpg



In comparison, I do think it DOES fell nerfed, but, this is just the first go at changing it up. Honestly, I'd like to see a ridiculous bonus to Craft, something like a Spark from Girl Genius, if you are familiar. Something to explain the crazy-awesome amount of inventing and innovation done in the First Age. Sure, not all Twilights are crafters, but, I think it'd be a pretty decent ability. Maybe with some of the current Essence-perception stuff too, or applying it to creating new Charms and Spells as well.


Night- OMFG WHY DID THEY CHANGE IT? Wait, they didn't? Oh, carry on.


Eclipse- The cherry pick rule I always thought was the standard to begin with...I should've so abused that beforehand...ah well, spilled milk and all.
 
In general, I always thought the zenith anima silly: evaporate bodies to prevent ghosts? There wasn't even ghosts until after the war right? Why give a power that addresses a problem that doest exist yet?


Wrt twilights, I like the spirit of the new, though not quite right IMO. They didn't have sorcery yet so from a functional standpoint they need something that would be valuable. I think the "tank" thing was to give a chance to not be interrupted during casting in 1e...
 
That was my opinion as well, but I thought the No Moon anima fit Twilights better anyway.


Pay X motes and decrease the cost of spells for the scene by that much, minimum half cost, or something like that.


I do like Thorn's idea of just slapping the Holy tag on the Zeniths and calling it fair. It adds flavor without being OP.


Though I lurve the Girl Genius, I'm not sure how to reflect the sparkiness right.


1/2 Essence in successes added to all Craft rolls as an add-on to the nerfed version?


Maybe decrease build time by (Essence) amount of time?


Would that be OP?
 
Just my two bits here in regards to the Twilight change:


In my experience the old Twilight anima served an invaluable service to Twilights by giving them a defense while shaping sorcery. Because sorcery removed them from combat they were unable to use block or dodge charms to defend themselves, having to instead rely on soak or others guarding them. Their anima effect (conveniently triggered when they went totemic shaping sorcery) provided a defense against incidental damage making them more likely to pull off Exalted's deliciously world-shattering spells.


That being said, I concede that it's just as useful in other situations, making it a little too handy. Unfortunately, limiting it to spell use rather shoe-horns all Twilights into being sorcerers. While I personally don't see this as problematic, it could make certain character concepts have a completely useless anima effect, which is clearly a problem.


The problem is that the new anima effect isn't terribly useful for any character concept.


The bonus to analyzing charms and effects via essence sight is made inherently redundant by the fact that by the time the Twilight has AESS, the most likely way of acquiring essence sight, the added dice aren't likely necessary due to already having enough of a die pool to do so.


The only other benefit is entirely situational depending on how common magical illusions are for that Twilight.


I like the theme of the new anima power, but I just don't find it very useful.
 
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