Advanced Thaumaturgy

Obsidian Soul

Obsidian Soul

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I have been creating a new level of Thaumaturgy that is based on the four established Occult Sciences.  One example would be Artifice, an advanced thaumaturgical Science, which combines Enchantment with Alchemy.  To learn Artifice, a mortal must have level three in both Alchemy and Enchantment, and Artifice may not exceed the lower of the two.  With Artifice, a mortal may create Artifacts.  The level of the created Artifacts may not exceed the mortal's level in Artifice, nor may it exceed level three.  The mortal will also receive an additional die per level to all of the relevant rolls dealing with Artifact Creation.  This is, of course, an optional rule for ST's that wish to run a more mortal focused and/or gritty Exalted game.
 
I seem to recall that Dragon Bloods, who have access to Sorcery, can't create Artifacts above 3.


It seems that Mortals shouldn't be invested with AS much power as a Dragon Blood to create Artifacts with Thaumaturgy, even if it is an Advanced brand.  Even if they have access to an Essence pool, it seems like a large leap.  


While I'm all for giving Mortals a bit more dap, this one seems to fly in the face of the premise of the game, that each person has their place in the Creation, and their role.  Just a hair too powerful for Mortals.


Perhaps, a Yozi has figured out a way to give Mortals a little boost to create Artifacts, that carry with it a taint that is part of  a larger scheme--such as the release with each item, a portion of a spell that will release them from their shackles, but each item is like a single syllable, and the spell is several paragraphs, even hundreds of pages long, so it's a long term project, but when the last Mortal hammers home the last intonation of the spell, the ringing of that hammer blow will shatter their prison, and the Primordials will be freed.  


This kind of investature might be a very quiet, not talked about, or even known of, side effect of the Thaumaturgy, one hidden not just from Artificers, but from the Heptagram as well.


You could also replace the idea of the Yozi, as a link to Autochthonia, and the dreams of Autocthon help power the Thaumaturgy to greater heights, but part of the Essence committment to activate any item is not just a few points greater, those extra points are funnelled directly back to Autocthon to help sustain him in his sleep. Instead of a grand spell, Auto instead drains a little extra Essence, lending a hand to the Thaumaturges is an investment that will allow him to suck a bit more Essence back, for a long, long, long time.  


And the question is: does the Heptagram suspect such a thing could even happen?  If you're running the Locust Crusade, this could be a plot hook.
 
Jakk,


Long time no see.  Anyway, I kind of was giving a general framework.  I tend to require mortals to accumulate twice as many successes than DB's, just to keep things fair and to make mortal created artifacts kind of rare.  If mortals require twice as many successes as DB's, you could even have them creating large or massive level 4 or 5 artifacts with no problem for game balance, as it would take even the most talented mortal decades to create one royal warstrider.
 
Does this apply to Dragon Bloods as well?


Again, you want to flout canon, that's fine, but if Dragon Bloods can't create Level 4 and 5 Artifacts, then how are Mortals hooking it up? Even if then need twice as many successes, it still means that Mortals are leap frogging Dragon Bloods--and let's face it, the DB's have gotten shortchanged on damn near everything, despite holding onto the Realm. They were Low Men with the Solar's in charge, after they take over, the Creation goes down the toilet, and to add insult to injury, you're going to let a talented Mortal Thaumaturge spend a lifetime besting the greatest minds at the Heptagram?


The point is that the Dragon Bloods, with hundreds of years of life can't create a Royal Warstrider anymore--the tech and power has been lost. If you'd rather a more mystech heavy game that's fine--after all, I'm the fella who put a raft-load of Mystech* into the Long Second Age--but you'd best let Dragon Bloods be exempt from the restrictions as well--which has potential for throwing off a lot of plot points involving the Solars reclaiming things that the DB's just don't get anymore.


It's not that I object to the idea of Mortals creating Artifacts, I just question if Level 3 Artifacts should be within their scope.  Even Level 2 should be a long ass time in coming, if at all.  In part, because of the Essence caps that Mortals, even of a Heroic variety labor under.  How's a Mortal going to recreate an Essence 3 minimum requirement?  It's not the idea of Mortals crafting goodies, but I think that they should be limited to keeping within their Essence caps.


*For those who are wondering, yes I do claim Mystech as my own damn word. I lost out to David Weber with genie years ago when he used it in his Honor Harrington series and so long as this site is up, I will continue to claim it as my own.
 
I'm not sure if I understand you Jakk.  If you look at S&S, DB's can regularly create level 4 or 5 Artifacts (and N/A Artifacts) even in modern times in Creation, as long as they are large or massive.  The main problem that they have is that, with the exception of unique inventions such as Icemind, they cannot have a core of jade, as most DB's have lost the knowledge required, so they have to incorporate First Age Alloys or other Magical Materials into the design.  Lookshy, because it has a contigous technology, though it lacks the resources to efficently support it, is an exception.  


The Shogunate created Noble and Royal Warstriders without (much) problem in vast numbers, so it is just that the DB's lost the required knowledge, which could be regained with the right sort of research.  The problem is that the infrastructure for such an endevor would require a more powerful nation-state than the Realm and would require more DB's to do the relevant research than are currently doing so.  It would even be possible for mortals to do the theoretical designs.


As for Essence.  It requires the commitment of the Artifact level in motes to create an Artifact, which any mortal who has bothered to learn Essence Mastery can do without much difficulty.  Mortals do create Artifacts, the Cord of Winds and Linowan Masks, as well as Hawk's Wings in the Player's Guide and about everything in Autochtonia, are examples of it, but WW has sadly not given us any rules for the process.  I was just suggesting a few optional rules for anyone who is interested.  It really counts on what flavor of game you are playing.  With the new Artifact Creation rules, a level 1 Artifact is either a highly fragile experiment or a toy, a level 2 Artifact is a useful tool, a level 3 Artifact is a lifechanging gadget and so on.  If you wish to limit mortal Artifacts to level 1, it is definately in your right as an ST, but, with the right penalties, I believe that you can have exceptional mortals making any level of Artifact (even N/A) without breaking game balance.  After all, the mad scientist is a staple of fiction, and I wouldn't doubt that there are a few of them in Creation.
 
As I recall, the passage in S&S says that "...the majority of Terrestrials do not have the power to create them."


It's not just a matter that they need to make them more massive or larger, but most don't have the dap to do so. It's not just simply that they need to be larer, but that they have lost the knowledge to do it right.  It's not a matter of "regularly can do" but a big deal when they attempt it at all.


If Dragon Bloods, even with their resources and libraries, and all the Shogunate factories are in trouble for making Level 4 and 5 goodies, that means that Mortals without such resources are looking at even more hurdles.


DB's are still looking at 50% more successes for Level 3 Artifacts.  That's a serious damper on them. And you want to make it easier for Mortals?


While it's an interesting idea, I think that it puts a bit too much power in Mortal hands. If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but I think that it is not just outside canon--and that's not such a bad thing, by itself--but takes away a theme of Loss from the game--which, I think is more what I object to. It trivializes a large theme, that the DB's and the Creation itself, lost a great deal over the years following the Usurpation.
 
I like the idea of giving Mortals a bit more, but with limits.  Even if Artifacts at a max of level two is set, that still leaves a tremendous amout of ability to create a multitude of useful items.  A Grand Daikalve can hack up an army, but out of combat it is not too helpful.  Get yourself a handful of level 1 and 2 artifacts and you can do a lot.
 
I'm not making it easier for mortals than DB's.  Perhaps I misspoke.  The mortals would have to get 100% more accumulated successes than a DB.  With that, they are half as effective.  They, as you say, do not the dap to make Artifact level 4 or 5, I was just suggesting that with a 100% penalty, you could ajust it so that a mortal could make level four and five large or massive artifacts without upsetting game balance.  As for DB's not having the dap, why is Lookshy able to create Warstriders, Dragon Armor and Airships still to this day?  While they do gain a few bonus die from the Advanced Science, a DB can go ahead and learn it without any penalty to get the same bonus.
 
I just checked Outcaste: It says specifically that all Dragon Armor employed in the 2nd Age was built during the 1st.  The same goes for their skycraft, with the exception of Skywolf, which was built two centuries ago based on, you guessed it, First Age designs.  All other flying aircraft that I saw while perusing clearly stated being created in the First Age.


As for warstriders, I recall that the only warstriders still being produced in the AoS are common warstriders, which are artifact 3.  I believe the Scarlet Empress had a Noble warstrider, though we can assume the Sidereals probably built or found that one for her.
 
Mortals do create Artifacts' date=' the Cord of Winds and Linowan Masks, as well as Hawk's Wings in the Player's Guide and about everything in Autochtonia, are examples of it...[/quote']
 Who said that the mortals in Autochthonia are the source of artifact creation? After all, there are Alchemicals about; I can easily see most of the Poli-Alchemicals making artifacts via some factory portion of their bodies (Poli-Alchemicals refer to the city-sized Alchemicals).
Click to expand...
 
That is a possibility, but they could not create the sheer mass of artifacts required.  Mortals, using Enchantment, can create template Artifacts of the first or second level (maybe even the third, I don't have S&S before me).  While it is prohibitively expensive in Creation, that is more do to the lack of necessary infrastructure than anything else.  I am quite sure that the Autochtonians have a way to reduce the cost by one or two Resource dots due to their more advanced technology.  In that case, the Big Alchemicals could be the equivalent of First Age Artifact Factories, with hundreds or even thousand of template stations which use Enchanters to create minor Artifacts.


Theoritically, the same thing could be done in Creation, though it would take a lot of money to set up the necessary infrastructure to reduce the cost per Artifact to something reasonable.  It would be worth it, but I doubt that anyone, with the exception of the Scarlet Empress or the Heads of the Households have enough cash flow to do so.
 
PG, p. 144:


"Devices enchanted with thaumaturgy are inferior to artifacts in every way. Their enchantments are fragile against the workings of Essence--there is no chance that an enchanted item will survive directed Emerlad Countermagic and they can often be destroyed merely by being in proximity to such a counterspell."


 So much for using Enchantment to make artifacts, canonically.


 The flavor text in Cord of Winds (Savage Seas, p. 125) states that it is simple enough to be made by even mortal sorcerers. There may be other 1-dot artifacts with similar conditions, but they appear to be the exception, rather than the rule.


 Houseruling that mortals can make low-level artifacts across the board is one thing, but stating that they're explicitly allowed to do so in canon (without supporting evidence) is another.
 
Page 34 in Savant and Sorcerer, second column, second paragraph.  It costs Artifact level+3 to set up a production line and Artifact level+2 to maintain it every season.  The number of successes required to produce them are five success for level ones and ten successes for level twos.  The mortal must be skilled in Enchantment, but they do not give a minimum level required, so I say that they must have level three, but that is my opinion.  While prohibitively expensive in the Second Age, it was much, much cheaper during the Shogunate and First Age, due to the magical infrastructure, and mortal Artifact production was probably the backbone of the First Age and Shogunate civilization, as the Exlated could go and create more important Artifacts and would not have to sweat the small stuff, like First Age Tools.
 
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