Other Minority Representation in RPing?

[Dark lord steel]

Imagine not having to worry about race/ethnicity/nationality, identity, and cultural perception on the daily? What is that like? What is it like to not spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer just for the slim chance that you might be able to stay in a country that doesn’t want you and avoid a country where you might literally die? What is it like to see yourself represented in 90% of stories? What is it like to afford not caring about history, sociology, and politics? What is it like to not be afraid every single day of your life?

Must be nice.

Umm... this is pretty inaccurate.

First of all, can I please ask what the whole "lawyer to stay in your country thing is about?". I have my suspicions at what you might be referencing (aside from general deportation). In the UK, this almost never happens. Hell, we can't even deport foreign criminals who run child sex gangs, let alone anyone else. Can't say what it's like in America, but you certainly never hear about thousands of people being thrown out on a regular basis.

This comment seems pretty contradictory with your arguments, as I've been trying to say they have their own cultural identity, but that idea kept getting shot. But now you're saying that they do have their own cultural identity, and it's implied that other people are coming in and misinterpreting this culture. Which is what I've been saying I don't want to do.

Also, you imply it is safe for white people to live wherever they please. May I please introduce you to a man called Cyril Ramaphosa (south African president). This man has called for the seizing of white property because they are all 'criminals' and in 2016 he said:

(I'm) 'not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now'.

Yes, because I'm sure they feel really safe living there right now. I'm sure they don't have to worry about being a different race. So you don't think politics effect white people just because they happen to be the majority in the western world?

I don't know whether you're aware of this (probably not) but there's scarcely a day goes by without crime splashing across our front pages. So no, we don't feel very safe, and as hate crime laws actually make it riskier to attack people of colour, white people feel less safe. Why mug a black guy when you'll get longer than if you mug a white guy?

You want to know what it's like to live without fear? Go and talk to the rich kids of Beverly hills, where daddies lawyers will solve everything. Don't shout at the rest of us who are just ordinary.

 

[Pandaskel]

Umm... this is pretty inaccurate.

First of all, can I please ask what the whole "lawyer to stay in your country thing is about?". I have my suspicions at what you might be referencing (aside from general deportation). In the UK, this almost never happens. Hell, we can't even deport foreign criminals who run child sex gangs, let alone anyone else. Can't say what it's like in America, but you certainly never hear about thousands of people being thrown out on a regular basis.

This comment seems pretty contradictory with your arguments, as I've been trying to say they have their own cultural identity, but that idea kept getting shot. But now you're saying that they do have their own cultural identity, and it's implied that other people are coming in and misinterpreting this culture. Which is what I've been saying I don't want to do.

Also, you imply it is safe for white people to live wherever they please. May I please introduce you to a man called Cyril Ramaphosa (south African president). This man has called for the seizing of white property because they are all 'criminals' and in 2016 he said:

(I'm) 'not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now'.

Yes, because I'm sure they feel really safe living there right now. I'm sure they don't have to worry about being a different race. So you don't think politics effect white people just because they happen to be the majority in the western world?

I don't know whether you're aware of this (probably not) but there's scarcely a day goes by without crime splashing across our front pages. So no, we don't feel very safe, and as hate crime laws actually make it riskier to attack people of colour, white people feel less safe. Why mug a black guy when you'll get longer than if you mug a white guy?

You want to know what it's like to live without fear? Go and talk to the rich kids of Beverly hills, where daddies lawyers will solve everything. Don't shout at the rest of us who are just ordinary.

Yo, chill. You took that real personally for someone who isn't the rich kids of Beverly Hills. When did I say I was talking about white people? Yeesh, way to put words in my mouth.

Also, saying that white people feel less safe than minorities right now is actual ignorant bullshit. Get your head out of your ass. That's the only thing that's been said on this entire thread that is actually thoroughly disgustingly stupid.

 

[Tove]

Yo, chill. You took that real personally for someone who isn't the rich kids of Beverly Hills. When did I say I was talking about white people? Yeesh, way to put words in my mouth.

Also, saying that white people feel less safe than minorities right now is actual ignorant bullshit. Get your head out of your ass. That's the only thing that's been said on this entire thread that is actually thoroughly disgustingly stupid.

Actually, you should probably chill out.
There's a way to talk to people without having to tell someone to get their head out of their ass. You don't agree, okay.

 

[Pandaskel]

Actually, you should probably chill out.
There's a way to talk to people without having to tell someone to get their head out of their ass. You don't agree, okay.

No, that claim is not a matter of opinion. I don’t “disagree”. It’s a disgusting display of ignorance and downplaying of the inherent privilege the majority enjoys on behalf of the exploitation, marginilization, and disenfranchisement of the other. The fact that there are people in the world who actually think like this guy gives me very little hope for the future.

 

[Dark lord steel]

And I think your misunderstanding the issue. It isn’t X number of people must be X color.

It is a matter of breaking this idea that white and straight is the default and all variations are exotic add ons that must be justified.

Think of it this way. What if the default character was a black lesbian. Every movie, TV show, book, play, etc. revolved around the black lesbian perspective. A majority of content focused specifically on the black lesbian perspective and every thing that deviated from it was compared to that central perspective.

Like oh well they’re making a gay movie now so I guess the gay men can stop whining about never getting their own movie.

And their making a white lesbian movie so those white women can stop bitching about their own movie.

But those deviations are the exception not the rule. And the further away from that default perspective the more scrutinized a piece of medium gets.

So when you get to white straight male it’s always seen as this token character. Like people only play straight white males when they want brownie points or to be PC.

And if you ARE a straight white male well tough titties on you. You gotta learn to find stories you like that focus on black lesbians maybe black gay men if your lucky.

But forget about seeing white men, their strictly comic relief/sidekicks or racial stereotypes. And you want a STRAIGHT white man? Wow be prepared to have to justify that a lot Mr.

Because everyone knows stories about straight white men don’t sell. Not unless there is a black lesbian around to save the day or lure the audience in.

So yeah imagine how it would feel if that was the world you lived in. You would want to see a little more people like yourself* and you would be sick to death of people saying that wanting that was just PC complaining.

Because you aren’t saying there can be no black lesbian characters. Or that white male characters HAVE to be in shows because it’s not fair otherwise.

Your just saying hey white straight men exist and it would be nice if they showed up stories a little more with out all this resentment from the black communities (gay and lesbians) about how their being bullied into giving everyone a fair shake.


*I don’t know if your white but you get the general idea.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but film media was first starting to gain momentum in a time where it was pretty sexist and racist.

The default was straight white men, because at that time, they held a hierarchical position. (And it was probably the largest demographic.)

A film is a business investment. So, it needs to appeal to a big a demographic as possible in order to maximize potential sales.

Even today, I think the highest proportion of people in America are straight white males, followed by the same in women. I could be wrong, but I think this amounts to ~70% of the overall population, with ~8% of this demographic not being straight.

So your film could have a main lead that appeals to potentially ~31% of the population (straight white male) or you could make a film that has a (for your example) a black lesbian lead.

So just pumping in some quick figures, the percentage of people who identify as LBGT in the US seems to range from somewhere between 5 - 14%, so just for example we'll say it's 9%.

The demographics for POC consist of ~30%, meaning that if it holds true that just under 10% if this population is LGBT, that's 3% of the US population, but let's round this up a little and say 5%.

~5% is a long way from ~30%, and if I was a company I know which group I'd be more likely to try and sell my product to.

So it's much more of a gamble to make a movie that appeals to a far smaller demographic. But as feminism is pretty hot right now, there's a big push for strong female characters (which are usually bombing). The problem is, everything has been so politicised, if they see a black man as the lead they assume it's diversity casting. By introducing this notion that films *need* to be more diverse, people are assuming characters are only there for that diversity purpose, and it turns them off the character.

(I know this assumes that people would only be interested in films about their demographic, which isn't true, but it is a common trend.)

 

[Dark lord steel]

Yo, chill. You took that real personally for someone who isn't the rich kids of Beverly Hills. When did I say I was talking about white people? Yeesh, way to put words in my mouth.

Also, saying that white people feel less safe than minorities right now is actual ignorant bullshit. Get your head out of your ass. That's the only thing that's been said on this entire thread that is actually thoroughly disgustingly stupid.

Maybe not in your country, but that is the place in some places in the world. If I'm so ignorant in comparison to you, surely you should know that it's not safe to be a white person in large swathes of the world?

No, that claim is not a matter of opinion. I don’t “disagree”. It’s a disgusting display of ignorance and downplaying of the inherent privilege the majority enjoys on behalf of the exploitation, marginilization, and disenfranchisement of the other. The fact that there are people in the world who actually think like this guy gives me very little hope for the future.

If I'm so ignorant, tell me where I'm wrong.

(Also, it was implied you were talking about white people. Otherwise, who were you talking about they are really privileged and how 'nice' it must be to not think you're going to be kicked out?)

 

[rae2nerdy]

Maybe not in your country, but that is the place in some places in the world. If I'm so ignorant in comparison to you, surely you should know that it's not safe to be a white person in large swathes of the world?


If I'm so ignorant, tell me where I'm wrong.

(Also, it was implied you were talking about white people. Otherwise, who were you talking about they are really privileged and how 'nice' it must be to not think you're going to be kicked out?)

Can’t speak to the first point but the second point to hazard a guess

Men
Straight People
People in Majority Religious Positions
Rich People
Basically anyone in a position of privelage over the minorities of their respective location.

 

[Dark lord steel]

Can’t speak to the first point but the second point to hazard a guess

Men
Straight People
People in Majority Religious Positions
Rich People
Basically anyone in a position of privelage over the minorities of their respective location.

But all straight men aren`t privledged or safe, even if thay are white. Surely that`s well known?

 

[rae2nerdy]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but film media was first starting to gain momentum in a time where it was pretty sexist and racist.

The default was straight white men, because at that time, they held a hierarchical position. (And it was probably the largest demographic.)

A film is a business investment. So, it needs to appeal to a big a demographic as possible in order to maximize potential sales.

Even today, I think the highest proportion of people in America are straight white males, followed by the same in women. I could be wrong, but I think this amounts to ~70% of the overall population, with ~8% of this demographic not being straight.

So your film could have a main lead that appeals to potentially ~31% of the population (straight white male) or you could make a film that has a (for your example) a black lesbian lead.

So just pumping in some quick figures, the percentage of people who identify as LBGT in the US seems to range from somewhere between 5 - 14%, so just for example we'll say it's 9%.

The demographics for POC consist of ~30%, meaning that if it holds true that just under 10% if this population is LGBT, that's 3% of the US population, but let's round this up a little and say 5%.

~5% is a long way from ~30%, and if I was a company I know which group I'd be more likely to try and sell my product to.

So it's much more of a gamble to make a movie that appeals to a far smaller demographic. But as feminism is pretty hot right now, there's a big push for strong female characters (which are usually bombing). The problem is, everything has been so politicised, if they see a black man as the lead they assume it's diversity casting. By introducing this notion that films *need* to be more diverse, people are assuming characters are only there for that diversity purpose, and it turns them off the character.

(I know this assumes that people would only be interested in films about their demographic, which isn't true, but it is a common trend.)

Dude it was explaining privelage to a person in a position to benefit from privelage. I wasn’t talking about movies.

Those were just a somewhat sarcastic example to get across a difficult concept to someone who has no reason to understand it.

But all straight men aren`t privledged or safe, even if thay are white. Surely that`s well known?

No. Where in the world are straight men not privelaged? Honest question too I have literally never heard of this.

Also again that was a whole list for a reason and the main take away was people in power whomever they might be.

 

[Dark lord steel]

Dude it was explaining privelage to a person in a position to benefit from privelage. I wasn’t talking about movies.

Those were just a somewhat sarcastic example to get across a difficult concept to someone who has no reason to understand it.

You were discussing stereotypes in media and how straight white men are the norm, and I was trying to show you an explanation as to why that might be.

No. Where in the world are straight men not privelaged? Honest question too I have literally never heard of this.

Also again that was a whole list for a reason and the main take away was people in power whomever they might be.

Straight men aren't privileged just because they are born. Would you seriously say that a child born in Africa and abandoned, who is either going to starve or be picked up by a warlord to be a child solider, is privileged just because they were born a boy? Or a child born into Islamic state, are they privileged? Of course not. It depends on the situation.

There are certainly some places on the planet where men are more privileged than women, but it isn't the West. It'd be somewhere more like Russia, where it is actually legal to best your wife as long as you don't do it too badly.

 

[rae2nerdy]

You were discussing stereotypes in media and how straight white men are the norm, and I was trying to show you an explanation as to why that might be.



Straight men aren't privileged just because they are born. Would you seriously say that a child born in Africa and abandoned, who is either going to starve or be picked up by a warlord to be a child solider, is privileged just because they were born a boy? Or a child born into Islamic state, are they privileged? Of course not. It depends on the situation.

There are certainly some places on the planet where men are more privileged than women, but it isn't the West. It'd be somewhere more like Russia, where it is actually legal to best your wife as long as you don't do it too badly.

You don’t understand privelage and I have to head to work so I can’t explain it to you. I’ll check back in later and if no one else has tackled it for you by then I will.

For now not to be rude but I gotta get my uniform and eat breakfast.

 

[Dark lord steel]

You don’t understand privelage and I have to head to work so I can’t explain it to you. I’ll check back in later and if no one else has tackled it for you by then I will.

For now not to be rude but I gotta get my uniform and eat breakfast.

Understandable. But I do know what privilege means, I just don't think it applies as universally as you've claimed it does.

 

[WoefullyGiant]

Straight men aren't privileged just because they are born

Saying that someone has some form of privilege doesn't mean that they're never gonna face any problems in their life, just that they aren't gonna have to face certain problems that those who belong to other groups might.

 

[Dark lord steel]

Saying that someone has some form of privilege doesn't mean that they're never gonna face any problems in their life, just that they aren't gonna have to face certain problems that those who belong to other groups might.

I think everyone goes through different struggles, and I've never reputed that (in fact that's what started all this). But I think it's far too easy to look at middle class white men in their mid-forties and start pointing the finger about privilege. And yes, they probably have been privileged throughout their lives, but that doesn't mean it applies for everyone in their demographic.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Saying that someone has some form of privilege doesn't mean that they're never gonna face any problems in their life, just that they aren't gonna have to face certain problems that those who belong to other groups might.

And there we have the main thesis. Also too, everyone has a form of privelage over others depending on their rung in the social ladder. And no one is saying that social ladder looks the same everywhere.

A poor white man in America is not going to share the same level of privelage as a rich white man. But he will still be privelaged in regards to women and most minorities.

That’s how privelage works it’s not a simple set of characteristics it’s intersectional based on a variety of factors.

Which a lot of people have difficulty with and why I said myself I was making a list that represented people in power. What individual attributes make up those people will change.

(Not saying you don’t understand this but as an expansion for our mutual friend steel)

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think everyone goes through different struggles, and I've never reputed that (in fact that's what started all this). But I think it's far too easy to look at middle class white men in their mid-forties and start pointing the finger about privilege. And yes, they probably have been privileged throughout their lives, but that doesn't mean it applies for everyone in their demographic.

Dude just stop. No one was coming for white men all across the world so you can stop beating the drum for them. We are talking about minority representation and a fair number of us are from America. And as minority representation is specifically framed in opposition to white over representation than yeah we’re going to mention white people.

But no one said all white people are bad that was you making assumptions and putting words in our mouth.

 

[Dark lord steel]

And there we have the main thesis. Also too, everyone has a form of privelage over others depending on their rung in the social ladder. And no one is saying that social ladder looks the same everywhere.

A poor white man in America is not going to share the same level of privelage as a rich white man. But he will still be privelaged in regards to women and most minorities.

That’s how privelage works it’s not a simple set of characteristics it’s intersectional based on a variety of factors.

Which a lot of people have difficulty with and why I said myself I was making a list that represented people in power. What individual attributes make up those people will change.

(Not saying you don’t understand this but as an expansion for our mutual friend steel)

But why would he be privileged against women or poc? With people of colour maybe you have more of a point, but this isn't the 1950s. I don't feel repressed as a women and I'd be hard pressed to find one that feels repressed by this society as a whole. I think it is actually prejudiced towards women, not against them

Dude just stop. No one was coming for white men all across the world so you can stop beating the drum for them. We are talking about minority representation and a fair number of us are from America. And as minority representation is specifically framed in opposition to white over representation than yeah we’re going to mention white people.

But no one said all white people are bad that was you making assumptions and putting words in our mouth.

But I never hear anyone complain that black people or women are too privileged, so who does that leave, by a process of elimination? Who must hold all this privilege and power if not for these groups?

 

[rae2nerdy]

But why would he be privileged against women or poc? With people of colour maybe you have more of a point, but this isn't the 1950s. I don't feel repressed as a women and I'd be hard pressed to find one that feels repressed by this society as a whole. I think it is actually prejudiced towards women, not against them

Your a white woman in privelaged circumstances who has never been abused. Congratulations, and I do mean that sincerely.

I am tired of trying to explain POC struggles to you when you obviously don’t care.

But A. I was talking specifically about women in America where yeah we have a whole bloody movement on how they are being taken advantage of by men in power. And if you think that doesn’t trickle down than I don’t know what to tell you.

But B. I will say you are making a solid case for Britain being a magical utopia (no sarcasm meant it sounds really nice to live so far removed from questions of representation, it’s the bedrock of America)

 

[Dark lord steel]

Your a white woman in privelaged circumstances who has never been abused. Congratulations, and I do mean that sincerely.

I am tired of trying to explain POC struggles to you when you obviously don’t care.

But A. I was talking specifically about women in America where yeah we have a whole bloody movement on how they are being taken advantage of by men in power. And if you think that doesn’t trickle down than I don’t know what to tell you.

But B. I will say you are making a solid case for Britain being a magical utopia (no sarcasm meant it sounds really nice to live so far removed from questions of representation, it’s the bedrock of America)

Is that the #metoo movement, where a bunch of women decided to sleep their way into money? Because that's not holding up to much scrutiny, and it looks like all the charges are going to be dropped, if they haven't been already.

Also, I have actually had abuse throughout my childhood, to the point where I nearly died. But I don't blame that on society, although I would say if this country wasn't so insistent that mother's are always best, I would've lived with my father far sooner.

Britain isn't a magical utopia, far from it. Women hold ludicrous amounts of power over men, and the LGBT community seems to run rampant doing whatever it pleases without question. If you're a women or you're a person of colour you get priority in social housing, the police take you more seriously, there's more programs to help you get started in whatever you'd like to do and there are crimes that you can only be arrested for if you are male. So no, I do not call that a utopia, but you might.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Is that the #metoo movement, where a bunch of women decided to sleep their way into money? Because that's not holding up to much scrutiny, and it looks like all the charges are going to be dropped, if they haven't been already.

Also, I have actually had abuse throughout my childhood, to the point where I nearly died. But I don't blame that on society, although I would say if this country wasn't so insistent that mother's are always best, I would've lived with my father far sooner.

Britain isn't a magical utopia, far from it. Women hold ludicrous amounts of power over men, and the LGBT community seems to run rampant doing whatever it pleases without question. If you're a women or you're a person of colour you get priority in social housing, the police take you more seriously, there's more programs to help you get started in whatever you'd like to do and there are crimes that you can only be arrested for if you are male. So no, I do not call that a utopia, but you might.

Wow okay that is so not what the #MeToo movement is that I am now certain you are never going to get this. It’s just so far outside your frame of reference that I might as well be speaking an alien language.

So this is me tapping out. If you have further questions maybe someone else can help you.

 

[Dark lord steel]

Wow okay that is so not what the #MeToo movement is that I am now certain you are never going to get this. It’s just so far outside your frame of reference that I might as well be speaking an alien language.

So this is me tapping out. If you have further questions maybe someone else can help you.

It's uncomfortable, but it's what happened. A bunch of young women went to Hollywood, threw themselves at the biggest guy they could find, and now that they're rich they're moaning about it.

Well... bye then.

 

[rae2nerdy]

It's uncomfortable, but it's what happened. A bunch of young women went to Hollywood, threw themselves at the biggest guy they could find, and now that they're rich they're moaning about it.

Well... bye then.

Actually women (and men) in a multitude of industries have begun to talk about the wide spread epidemic of sexual assault and harassment.

But your not American so I am not surprised you misunderstood.

However do you mind if I quote you on another thread? The misunderstanding of #MeToo ties into a conversation on another thread about misogyny and toxic masculinity.

Not saying you are misogynist or anything, I think you really just misunderstood the movement as an outsider.

But if the topic continues on in the other thread I think your post might be a good way to illustrate my point. (I won’t tag you or anything just didn’t want to use your words without asking first).

 

[Dark lord steel]

Actually women (and men) in a multitude of industries have begun to talk about the wide spread epidemic of sexual assault and harassment.

But your not American so I am not surprised you misunderstood.

However do you mind if I quote you on another thread? The misunderstanding of #MeToo ties into a conversation on another thread about misogyny and toxic masculinity.

Not saying you are misogynist or anything, I think you really just misunderstood the movement as an outsider.

But if the topic continues on in the other thread I think your post might be a good way to illustrate my point. (I won’t tag you or anything just didn’t want to use your words without asking first).

I think people have lost touch with what sexual harassment actually is, and now they're calling out the slightest thing as it.

Just out of interest, does this thread on toxic masculinity also broach the subject of toxic femininity?

I don't mind, but I'd like to see what you're planning to post (you can post it and then tag me in it if you want). Who knows, you might even change my opinion if your argument is compelling enough.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I think people have lost touch with what sexual harassment actually is, and now they're calling out the slightest thing as it.

Just out of interest, does this thread on toxic masculinity also broach the subject of toxic femininity?

I don't mind, but I'd like to see what you're planning to post (you can post it and then tag me in it if you want). Who knows, you might even change my opinion if your argument is compelling enough.

Well it's kind off topic to this particular conversation but I would suggest you do some research into #MeToo as it's really not at all what you seem to think it is. It isn't some frivolous excuse to come for men. It talks about serious issues around consent, sexual assault, and sexual harassment.

As to toxic masculinity/feminity we can cover that in PMs as it's not really relevant to this topic and I am not sure what your definition for either term is.

 

[adrian_]

Lets just try to move away from an irrelevant conversation.

Well it's kind off topic to this particular conversation but I would suggest you do some research into #MeToo as it's really not at all what you seem to think it is. It isn't some frivolous excuse to come for men. It talks about serious issues around consent, sexual assault, and sexual harassment.

As to toxic masculinity/feminity we can cover that in PMs as it's not really relevant to this topic and I am not sure what your definition for either term is.