Viewpoint Why is using art without permission a problem? It's time we talk about this.

[bastion]

Edit: Because fair use has been brought up multiple times, I'd just like to emphasize that the legality of using art without permission should not be the important part. Whether or not you can legally use that art, you are still having an impact on the artists and that should be considered. If you like the art, ask the artist if you can use it.

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I am definitely not the best person to initiate this discussion. I have anxiety and far from the most eloquent, but this is a long overdue discussion. I can only hope to get the ball rolling so that the roleplay community can start learning and growing.

For the last decade that I have been a part of the roleplay community, and likely since it originated, it has been the norm to find random art online to use as the face of our characters. I did it when I first started out, as did most people I know in the community. Many still do. Being a roleplayer and an artist isn't necessarily common, and even when someone is both, using someone else's art has an appeal when everyone else is using art of a higher skill level or style for their face claims.

Just because it's been normalized, doesn't mean it's okay. Everyone might be doing it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with it. That doesn't mean there isn't harm.

Art doesn't come from nowhere. Someone created it, with a purpose.

Many artists are uncomfortable having their artwork used as the face for someone else's character. Art is something personal, that takes hours to create, years of skill, and plenty of emotion for each piece. It hurts to see their art used without their permission. It can feel violating, especially when that art features their personal character.

Worse yet, reposting art publicly can be harmful for artists. Artists have lost out on job opportunity's because their art was reposted. Artists have been forced to go private over their art being reposted.

There are places where there are strict restrictions on fanart, to the point an artist can get in trouble if their fanart spreads to far, so even using fanart without permission can be a problem.

It's time we stop taking art without the artist's permission. Stop browsing random images and start looking for free art instead. There are artists who create character portraits for the express purpose of people using them. There are also artists who take requests, although you should never approach a random artist asking if they do. Look through art forums for threads from artists inviting people to request art from them. You can also check art trade forums for artists willing to trade for non-art, such as writing.

There are also resources for creating free art. Here are just a few I could find with a quick search:

• Picrew｜つくってあそべる画像メーカー: anime and cartoon portraits for the most part
• Artbreeder: fuse art to create new stuff, the portrait mode is pretty fantastic once you get the hang of it
  • Note: Make sure you're using this to create something unique. Check the "genetic history" of any art you use from the sure to ensure it's far removed from the original source. Also this sure can translate photos of real people into art, which you can then manipulate, so it works well if you've got a real life face claim that's close but needs some tweaking.
• This Person Does Not Exist: photorealistic images of fake people, all randomly generated though
• Hero Forge Custom Miniatures: create fantasy miniatures
• https://eldritch-foundry.com/: same thing as Hero Forge

If you can't find free art and none of those options for creating character references works for you, what should you do? Well, there's two options:

• Commission an artist. Pay for custom art to your specifications.
• Learn to draw. It may sound difficult, but once you start studying, you will find you improve incredibly quickly. Most people can go from stick figures to something satisfying within a months, even if it's not the most impressive.

Alright, I'll leave it here for now. If you want to argue, honestly, I'll probably just let you talk to yourself. I am too anxious and stressed to try and convince someone not to steal art (yes, it's stealing as long as you don't have permission to repost and use the art.)

Hopefully, others will engage in this conversation though, and the roleplay community can start moving away from using art without permission.

 

[nerdy tangents]

The people who steal art won’t care but for what it’s worth I agree a hundred percent with everything you said.

 

[bastion]

The people who steal art won’t care but for what it’s worth I agree a hundred percent with everything you said.

On one hand you're right, but on the other there are many people using art without realizing it's a problem because everyone else does it. Those people who read this may decide to stop using art without permission.

Plus, the more attention this topic gets, the more likely it is we can change the norm of using art without permission.

 

[nerdy tangents]

I think the biggest problem is what I call the pizza problem.

So let’s say I bring a pizza for lunch. I put my name on the box and put it in the fridge.

My coworkers decide they want to eat the pizza. So each one takes a single slice.

Now they justify this by saying “Oh I’m just taking one slice there is still plenty of pizza left over for Nerdy to eat later.”

(Let’s assume they can’t physically see the pieces of pizza disappear visually).

The problem is that one person taking a piece makes it more likely for a second, third, etc. to take a piece.

But each person is only taking responsibility for their one piece. So they don’t understand how them taking “one piece of pizza” is bad.

Or they think that anyone who puts their pizza in a “public place” automatically means it’s open for eating by everyone else.

Its essentially a bit of entitlement where they can’t understand that having access to something is not the same as having permission to take it.

And yeah some people might not be aware of that but the vast majority are aware but don’t care. Because they feel like it’s fine cuz they are only responsible for the one tiny piece they actually took not the fact that other people are also taking pieces as well.

 

[bastion]

Yeah, I can agree with that, nerdy tangents . There seems to be this idea that because the images are digital, there is no harm in trading and using them since the original is still there.

What is important for people to learn though, is that the value in the art isn't it's mere existence, but everything that went into it. The art is more than the pixels that's create an image. It's emotion poured into creating the piece, time spent working on it, and the years of practice honing the skills used.

When art is reposted and used without the artist's permission, it may not remove parts of the original, but it still takes from the artist.

 

[Jannah]

I can honestly understand both sides of the argument, but it's generally not one I even touch since I only use realistic face claims if I must use one.

 

[bastion]

I can honestly understand both sides of the argument, but it's generally not one I even touch since I only use realistic face claims if I must use one.

I can certainly understand wanting to stay outside the discussion, especially when you don't use art for your characters.

I do find it a little confusing to understand both sides though, if you mean that in the sense that you agree with both sides / find both sides valid. I'm not sure how anyone can truly understand that using art without the artist's permission is a problem while also finding it acceptable that people do it.

 

[Jannah]

I can certainly understand wanting to stay outside the discussion, especially when you don't use art for your characters.

I do find it a little confusing to understand both sides though, if you mean that in the sense that you agree with both sides / find both sides valid. I'm not sure how anyone can truly understand that using art without the artist's permission is a problem while also finding it acceptable that people do it.

No, I just mean that both sides have valid points that I can sympathize with, especially since I'm not an artist and sometimes it can be hard to find faces that match the character fully.

 

[Luscinioide]

With how many resources there are for people to be able to visualize their character - for free - there's literally no excuse to steal art anymore. Art is a luxury and a privilege, not a requirement for roleplaying. There's absolutely zero harm coming to someone because they don't have a picture for their character. There IS harm coming to the people who they steal from. My clients would be pissed off if they figured out some random person was using the commission they paid for, because A) it's not their design, B) they don't own the rights to that image, C) they stole something they paid actual money for.

I used to be more sympathetic, but anymore I just call people out on their bullshit. No, you can't use the picture I spent 10 hours on for a client just because it "looks exactly like your character and you can't find anything like it!!! and you're poor so I should feel bad and let you have it!!!" Tough luck sis. You wouldn't walk into an Apple store and demand a free watch because you NEED it SO bad, everyone else has one and it's not fair that you don't! No. Stop. You're not entitled to other people's property.

 

[bastion]

No, I just mean that both sides have valid points that I can sympathize with, especially since I'm not an artist and sometimes it can be hard to find faces that match the character fully.

I'm genuinely curious what argument for using art without the artist's permission you sympathize with.

 

[Jannah]

I'm genuinely curious what argument for using art without the artist's permission you sympathize with.

Basically the ones about artwork sometimes better capturing the essence of the character and the writer is unable to create similar artwork themselves. Of course there's also the factor of being broke and unable to commission a piece yourself.

However, of course on the flipside I do entirely understand why artists don't like people doing that. I mean, they have put a lot of effort into the pieces. Often they're commissions too that the artist specifically made for someone else so of course they wouldn't really want others using it.

Again, mixed feelings since I know what it's like to have an image in my head I can't create but also not being able to afford to pay someone to create it for me. It's actually one of the reasons I stick to realistic face claims. There's less issues around copyrights and things.

 

[Werepunk]

Hard agree with OP. Art can be deeply personal to the artist, and OCs can be deeply personal to the person who made them... And unless you ask the artist for permission, then you have no way of knowing how they feel about their art being used, or if they'd consent to you using their work (if you do ask permission and you get it-- awesome! absolutely no beef with folks who do take the time to talk to the artist.)

I see so many artists with "don't use my designs for your characters" and "don't tag as your oc" on their posts and profiles... I'd be willing to bet that there are far more artists who aren't okay with it than artists who are. And that's not even touching on the potential ramifications of using art commissioned for someone else.

Speaking personally, I mostly draw my own OCs and I'd be really uncomfortable with people taking art I've done of them and using it for other characters. Fortunately I've never run into that problem as far as I know, as my art isn't typically the style people look for... Just using myself as an example to say that a lot of artists really don't like it, and you can't know for sure unless you ask them.

 

[Luscinioide]

Basically the ones about artwork sometimes better capturing the essence of the character and the writer is unable to create similar artwork themselves. Of course there's also the factor of being broke and unable to commission a piece yourself.

I really don't feel like this is a good reason? There's all sorts of materialistic things that would be great to have that I can't afford, but I'm not going to steal them. If the writer can't afford art, then they can just learn to draw themselves. I did it because I was broke. Put in five years of work and started from nothing but notebook paper and pencils to be able to reach the point where I can make the art myself. There's always alternatives that are better than 'welp I want this, I'm just gonna take it.'

Often they're commissions too that the artist specifically made for someone else so of course they wouldn't really want others using it.

And it's not just 'we sorta don't want people to use it.' >_> It's called copyright violation and we're responsible for going after the thieves of whoever stole our client's artwork. If someone takes my client's art and refuses to take it down, I have to go through a DMCA process which is a complete pain in the ass. That, and the client might just decide they don't want to commission any further art because the hassle of having other people just yank it is too much to deal with. Boom, loss of money. It's not a victimless act.

 

[bastion]

Basically the ones about artwork sometimes better capturing the essence of the character and the writer is unable to create similar artwork themselves. Of course there's also the factor of being broke and unable to commission a piece yourself.

That's where free resources for art comes into play. I linked options in my original post for creating stuff like picrew, and there are also ways to get art for free, such as artist's who are taking requests or will trade for writing.

 

[nerdy tangents]

Basically the ones about artwork sometimes better capturing the essence of the character and the writer is unable to create similar artwork themselves. Of course there's also the factor of being broke and unable to commission a piece yourself.

I think the issue is that … stealing isn’t the solution to being poor or lacking artistic talent.

Anymore then taking someone’s writing and claiming it as you own is an acceptable alternative to writing your own story.

I admire the hell out of the Harry Potter series. I would never copy and paste paragraphs from the series into a roleplay or fanfiction without at minimum crediting the book/chapter I got the paragraphs from.

And if JKR requested that people didn’t directly copy her books into their personal projects I wouldn’t copy and paste the paragraphs anyway.

If you need art to help you visualize your character you can

1. See if an artist you like does free commissions

2. Use a free source doll maker or character generator like the ones bastion linked in the first post

But complaining about “oh I can’t afford commissions” or “I don’t know how to draw” is just another way of saying you feel entitled to take other peoples property.

** not talking about you specifically I am more talking about the people who attempt to use those excuses for art stealing. **

 

[Jannah]

I really don't feel like this is a good reason? There's all sorts of materialistic things that would be great to have that I can't afford, but I'm not going to steal them. If the writer can't afford art, then they can just learn to draw themselves. I did it because I was broke. Put in five years of work and started from nothing but notebook paper and pencils to be able to reach the point where I can make the art myself. There's always alternatives that are better than 'welp I want this, I'm just gonna take it.'



And it's not just 'we sorta don't want people to use it.' >_> It's called copyright violation and we're responsible for going after the thieves of whoever stole our client's artwork. If someone takes my client's art and refuses to take it down, I have to go through a DMCA process which is a complete pain in the ass. That, and the client might just decide they don't want to commission any further art because the hassle of having other people just yank it is too much to deal with. Boom, loss of money. It's not a victimless act.

As I mentioned, I'm aware that it's a contentious issue and I sympathize with artists feeling violated. I was just saying that I *understand* and even sort of sympathize with why someone may want to use a piece of art that isn't theirs. I don't really have a dog in this fight tbh since as I mentioned in my very first post I tend to stick to realistic face claims. Actors, models, etc. At least with actors it's like they're playing another role. Pretending to be someone they're not is literally their career.

 

[bastion]

I think it's time we move past Jannah's stance. We've all made out points and it's staying to become a thing where a bunch of people keep trying to change one person's views or however you want to put it.

Does anyone know of any image creation sites I didn't already link? How about artists that have free to use character art? I know I've seen a few D&D artist who post free to use NPC portraits, so I know there are some out there. I'll see if I can dig some up myself when I'm free.

 

[Jannah]

You asked so I gave my honest opinion, but yes. Let's move on since this is just an argument waiting to happen. I'm not here to argue as this post literally did not apply to me in the first place.

 

[bastion]

You asked so I gave my honest opinion, but yes. Let's move on since this is just an argument waiting to happen. I'm not here to argue as this post literally did not apply to me in the first place.

I didn't say that to shame you or anything, I suggested we move on because I felt it was becoming an unfair situation to you.

I'm also hoping to keep this a friendly discussion so that people can learn why artist's are against they're art being used without their permission, as well as if the alternatives. I can't see it as a friendly discussion of a bunch of people are all talking against one person.

 

[Jannah]

I didn't say that to shame you or anything, I suggested we move on because I felt it was becoming an unfair situation to you.

I'm also hoping to keep this a friendly discussion so that people can learn why artist's are against they're art being used without their permission, as well as if the alternatives. I can't see it as a friendly discussion of a bunch of people are all talking against one person.

Alright, that's fair. Tone can definitely be hard to detect over text. I'll leave you be

 

[Cosmo]

It falls into that grey area just like everything else does. I find it no worse then using the faces of models and celebrities without their consent or stealing intellectual properties (IPs) to use as roleplays without the permission of the creators.

When you make a pokemon roleplay, you are using their creation, their IP, that people spent a lot of time, money and effort on, that means a lot to their creators and doing so without their permission. When you use an actors appearance, their 'face claim', you are stealing their very identity and appearance for use of your character. Yes, these can all be argued to be 'transformative works' but the same goes for using art.

I can understand why artist would hate to see their work used, just as I can understand how a model would hate going on the internet to discover their face is being used as a vampire or why an author may hate that people are creating stories using the worlds they created without their permission, just as I can understand why they opposite may be true and they may feel flattered.

Fanfiction? Stealing. Music Videos not put up by the producer or licensed publisher? Stealing. Showing entire episodes of shows? Stealing. Most of the internet, to be honest, can be boiled down to the sharing of information that we really shouldn't be sharing.

For the most part, when it is done for the purpose of roleplaying, I assume it is done without malicious intent, for transformative purposes and is not an attempt to steal or claim ownership of anything. Yes, I understand many people may not like that answer, or think more should be done, or that nothing should be done, but to be honest, most ways to 'fix' that will cause more damage then will actually fix anything. If RPN tried to crack down on art, face claims and fandoms, the site would dry up and vanish. [Unless we are doing the 'No, everything but the things I dislike are okay, but the things I dislike? Those gotta go because I dislike them].

Can get into the debate of 'but it isn't right, it is wrong, and shouldn't be done,' but 'wrong and shouldn't be done' covers a whole host of human actions that are still done. End of the day, the world isn't an ideal place, things are going to be done for convenience or just desire's sake and the act to police these often end up causing far more harm then good. It's a sucky world but it is the one we got.

 

[scorpiodragon]

Perhaps part of the problem is rps requiring face claims to begin with. This I think often forces people to look for art online without realizing it is stolen and most won’t put in the work to find the original artist. They might feel that since it is on Google/bing/etc. that it is free to use since it was posted to the internet.

I know when I have to find a face claim I now try to use artbreeder or I try anime characters. If they don’t accept anime characters (not all rps do) I look for l actors but that’s a problem too when the rp doesn’t accept those type of rps face claims either.

Artists aren’t generally going to do stuff for free, nor should they. That forces poorer people to try to draw themselves…problem is not all rps accept drawn face claims.

I do not know if a database that had art links to all the artists who post non-anime on the internet. It’d be nice if there were to prevent this problem, however that is impossible. How many artists go on rp websites and find their art being used honestly? Not saying this is a reason to steal art but aside from myself, I don’t know any ropes that are also artists. If they were set up like deviantart where they have art protection, maybe the problem could be solved though I don’t know if that protection for one’s art extends to rp websites.

The only way I can think of to stop this is no longer require face claims. Which you shouldn’t need anyway in my opinion if you can describe it well enough and there is nothing wrong with just a description of a character. Sometimes that helps me visualize characters better

 

[Luscinioide]

For the other artists reading this thread and cringing...I highly advise putting the biggest, ugliest watermarks you can on art of your characters. ; ) I make sure to slap an enormous "LUSCINIOIDE" in a place where it's impossible to remove it without painting over, which people stealing art clearly don't have the skill to do. Avoid cutesy little signatures in the corners that can just be cropped out. People feel quite a bit more shame about taking other people's property when it's obvious it's not theirs.

Even better if you add for (your username) use only to the watermark. What are they gonna do, steal your username too looool

 

[Jannah]

For the other artists reading this thread and cringing...I highly advise putting the biggest, ugliest watermarks you can on art of your characters. ; ) I make sure to slap an enormous "LUSCINIOIDE" in a place where it's impossible to remove it without painting over, which people stealing art clearly don't have the skill to do. Avoid cutesy little signatures in the corners that can just be cropped out. People feel quite a bit more shame about taking other people's property when it's obvious it's not theirs.

Even better if you add for (your username) use only to the watermark. What are they gonna do, steal your username too looool

Just curious so please don't bite me for asking, but would you feel differently about art of others being used if the person using it wasn't trying to pass it off as their own or was giving the original artist credit?

 

[deer]

I don't believe Artbreeder would be a good idea to add as a resource for free images. There's a lot of complications that goes into AI and fusing [2] images that does not belong to you still, to me, reads as using someone else's work without permission.

For example, you can use and upload someone else's commissioned artwork as a base and another artwork that isn't for use and transforming the piece into a different image. It could or couldn't be recognisable but it's still slightly 'photoshopping' original art. The original artist wouldn't be given credit and the final artwork 'belongs' to you.

I think of it in the same lines as BBcoders who ask others to not use their code as a base for their own. Artbreeder, in a sense, is similar.